Gator

What was the quote ?

What's the link ?

Where has it been reported that GWS knew he had serious "issues" (other than wanting to be traded back home) during or before last year's trade period ?

Hogan has the chance to be the difference. He knows it, the players know it and the coaches know it. I suspect he's the type of character to see what this evolving group can deliver. Will he take ownership and responsibility for what he can contribute ? Champions usually want to put the team on their back and show the way. If Hogan goes post a premiership so be it, but for him to leave before the club has made significant inroads it would be a disaster, because he's the type of player that will help make us a destination club. But I suspect he'll stay. And if he ever does leave I think he'll remain in Melbourne, which is why I'm confident he won't.

(Re-post, as I responded to the incorrect poster) The following is from an article linked at the bottom: “The thing that stands out for me is his competitiveness. The club wants guys who have a crack and compete for 100 percent of the game. He’s certainly one of those blokes,” Brayshaw told aflplayers.com.au at last week’s AFLPA Induction Camp. “The guys have already given feedback that he’s a super competitor and we want to play with him because of the way he goes about it on the training track.” I'm not sure what you expect from an 18 year after 10 weeks on the training track, or why you think he'd be "starring", but it appears the players and club are happy with his progress. http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/new-demon-oliver-at-home-with-the-brayshaws/

Why is this in a Hogan thread ?

He's had a vastly superior career and he's certainly more talented. Right now they're on about par, which is why they've got the same present rating. I'd still have Cotchin ahead. Hope that helps.

He does everything better. That's not a slight on Jones, btw. He also kicks more goals. The most Jones has kicked in a season is 16. The most Selwood has kicked is 30. I highly rate goal-kicking mids. He especially reads the game better, is harder and makes better decisions. And no, it doesn't mean Jones isn't hard too. Viney is as hard as Selwood, Jones isn't.

Talk about cherry picking. Jones has been in the system and half of that time was rubbish. Cotchin has his faults but is a vastly superior player.

No, Cotchin is more talented and has performed at a better level over their careers. Given the choice of both footballers I'd take the one who has performed better and has a higher ceiling. You got caught out saying "Wow", etc. because you struggle to analyse basic concepts. Other posters then have to waste time spoon feeding you until the penny drops. You then complain that you're just expressing an "opinion". But no, you were ridiculing another poster who was using sound judgment free of bias. Let's look at another measure, i.e. Brownlow votes: Cotchin already ranks 5th on Richmond's all time list with 100 (153 games). Jones is doing quite well with 56 (201 games). Cotchin is second on Richmond's all time list for average votes per game. Jones ranks 36. Cotchin has 19 BOG's. Jones has 6. Btw, Jones has also only had one A-grade season and his first 5 years were crud. By any measure Cotchin has been the better footballer, but you keep deluding yourself.

Firstly, Jones played all of 2015 as a 27 year old. Secondly, 28 is STILL in your primes as an AFL footballer. It's peak prime. While I agree that Cotchin has played in better teams the Tiges are still bog ordinary. He hardly has this huge advantage when he's one of the first tagged every week. Deledio is never in the trenches with him and Martin plays high half-forward with occasional forays into the middle. They're still trying to improve their midfield. Cotchin has made AA on the back of one brilliant season. His team DID NOT play finals in the year he made AA. Jones has never made the squad of 40. Yes, I did point out that Cotchin is more talented. So what ? He is. That isn't "changing" a story, it's an observation. One you say you share. Seemingly stats don't matter when they don't favour your argument. Imo, there IS enough of a difference to show who has had the better career to date. It's not a huge difference, but virtually all the key stats favour Cotchin (virtually no difference in tackles). Cotchin is a B+ footballer and Jones is a B+ footballer. There's not a lot in it, but there's enough evidence on talent and stats for me to conclude one is better than the other. Especially when Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career. I expressed a view that I'd take Cotchin ahead of Jones. Big deal. It's just MY opinion. Your reply was "Wow. You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly." It was a stupid reply. But it was a reply befitting your standard contributions. I also agree that Jones offers intangibles from a captaincy point of view and he's improved his leadership over the last couple of years. My opinion was based more on football. The option to swap isn't realistic, so I didn't take captaincy into consideration when stating who I'd take.

Yep. If you can't perform in finals you're as useful as a cold pie. Cotchin should get more chances to redeem himself and Jones will get another taste of finals action, if not this year then next.

You do realise there's a reason for those stats and accolades ? At the age of 22 in 2010 Selwood won Geelong's B&F. It was in the middle one of modern AFL history's greatest dynasties. Have a look at the names in that side and how many games they played for the season. Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career. Yes, it didn't help playing for a rabble devoid of a strong senior group. But I don't know in what parallel universe you can claim Jones to be Selwood's equal. It's utter nonsense.

I knew it wouldn't be long before the gadfly popped up. The facts are Cotchin's best season is better than Jones' best season. Cotchin made AA in 2012 and he did it in a team that finished 12th. Cotchin averages more disposals, marks, goals and rating points (90 to 79) throughout his career with 50 less games (numbers usually go up as one's career progresses). Cotchin has also won 3 B&F's; and in a team that has been superior to Jones'. Cotchin has had one A-grade year and Jones has had one A-grade year. Cotchin is naturally a more talented and skilled player. I've already said Cotchin has been disappointing over the last 3 years, as I expected him to become a superstar, even then he's averaged more possessions, goals and ratings points than Jones. If Melbourne supporters prefer Jones that's great, but for you to utter the words "wow" and "silly" only confirms that you have an iq bordering on you know what.

The team aspect won't be quantified unless Jones plays alongside him at Geelong. My eyes tell me he's clearly a better player and stats and peer recognition suggest the same. You don't win B&F's playing alongside premiership players in Scarlett, Enright, Ablett, Bartel, Taylor, Kelly, Corey, Johnson, etc. unless you're a star. Selwood isn't just skilled and tough, he's also a superb reader of the game and decision maker. It took Jones a long time to improve these aspects of his game. Selwood won a B&F in his 4th year. It took Jones until his 6th season to play decent footy. There's no comparison. Unless of course you're a biased Melbourne suppoerter with blinkers on.

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go. Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones. Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game. He has 4 AA. Jones has never made the squad. He's been named best captain in the AFL. Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player. He also won the Rising Star award in 2007. I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions. Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles. You don't have to be a star to tackle. It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well. And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

Cotchin has more talent than Jones, but he's not a star. He has the potential to be a star, but he's disappointed over the last 3 years. Cotchin has had one great season and I'm surprised he hasn't gone on with it. He was brilliant in 2012 and has been disappointing ever since. He couldn't handle a tag at under 18 level and he's yet to show he can consistently handle one at AFL level. And 9 possessions in a final when you're captain is abysmal. That said, I'd take Cotchin over Jones without hesitation.

A flag is all I care about. To win a flag you need "stars". Jones isn't and never will be a star. If we're to win a flag we need players like Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Salem and Petracca to become stars. Clearly not all will and maybe none will, but if you want to see a flag you'll need 2 or 3 to become elites of the competition and certainly better than Jones. That's not a knock on Jones it's just reality. Hogan will be a star and if Weideman can reach 60+ goals then the makings will be there to get a chance at a flag if 2 or 3 of the above reach the required level. Why do I have a sixth sense Stu's head will bob up with some inanity ?

If he's only half as good as Jones I'll be devastated. If he's as good as Jones I'll be disappointed. I fully expect Oliver to be a better player than Jones. We need him to be a better player than Jones.

I suspect young Viney towed the company line when he had a pretty fair idea what was going to go down. I wouldn't put much emphasis on his comments.

Stringer was being touted as a strong candidate for pick one prior to the leg injury.

Paul Roos on Oliver this preseason: “Young Clayton has come down from the country. He’s got a good size AFL body, which gives him a bit of an advantage over some of the first-year players. He looks like he’s going to be a good runner too – he burst out of the blocks in a 300-metre run. But he’s learning good habits, like all of the young kids.” – Paul Roos They're just sifting through Roos critique and putting their own slant on it. They're offering nothing original or new. In other words, it's complete guesswork. The following is what that article says about Josh Wagner: Joshua Wagner: "Knows what he is doing, has a good left foot but needs to improve his running." This is what Roos said about Wagner on the club website: "he’s a nice left-footer with good skills and he knows what he’s doing.” – Paul Roos

You should be punch drunk by now. Your position has no merit.

I don't share Curry's view that he shouldn't be anywhere the MFC, because I'm more interested in the best possible playing list and a flag. I'm not that pious. However, I have very little sympathy for the players, because they knew the were pushing the boundaries and as a collective they deliberately lied to ASADA.

Of course we got Melksham for the "long haul", but only Stu would think that the club and AFL industry as a while wasn't very surprised by this outcome. The club rolled the dice and got burnt.