Rhino Richards

Luke Ball chose to speak with Collingwood and chose not to speak to MFC. His preferences were understandable if you actually thought about where Ball was in his career and what he wanted to achieve. Luke Ball played a high risk game himself but the odds were stacked in his favour. If he was chosen by MFC and did not want to play with us, his career was potentially on a knife's edge. This risk has always been known by Clubs and the AFL. The issue with Ball was expensive contract with high upfront, questionable medical condition that required external medical certification that was withheld and a player stating where he wanted to go. And your melodramatic last sentence does little to show that you actually understood what happened.

I reckon on some basic issues 10 years may not be enough time for you. Your reference to nursery school would indicate you have a very poor grasp of what has happened and what is happening at the Club. As usual you cannot follow other people's argument. I have never said the the formula was rigid at all. And on the basis of your naive nursery school comment you have no idea what attitude is being applied and how it is done. And FWIW, you continually infer issues about the players attitude but clearly have no knowledge to back this up. i have always found thats your biggest challenge WYL. BTW, about time for your annual..."There are no more excuses".... Works a treat and makes you sound knowledgeable and discerning. Go for it.

He went into the draft with pre determined strings that had been negotiated with Collingwood. He would not even speak with us. We had no guarantee that if drafted he would (interest) or could (fitness) fulfill contractual obligations. And given the situation it was a very big risk on those issues that its easy to say we shoulda coulda. There was some fundamental unknowns with Ball And that crap on McLean. His career ended when the game sped up in the last six years and he didnt. Never quick he became molasses whose slowness was magnified by poor on field peripheral vision. No arguments about Carlton. I dont think there was a mistake. MFC made a number of approaches as other clubs did to Ball. We even approached him in the US as well and he refused to talk with us. Clark did not show that capacity.

I would rather hope that the FD properly understand the strengths and weakneses of our players against the oppositions players to undertake the best performance possible. Thats what they get paid for. If you want people who want naive believes then you can get them anywhere and they are cheap as chips. They wont deliver anything but at leastv they go in with belief. Who are these unknown people that "hide behind a 3 to 5 year" as an escape clause for achieving success? Can you name them? They could be ones that have accepting mediocrity for too long. Wow. We actually bottomed out in 2007 to 2010. In this period the turnover in the list result in the list at start of 2011 being the youngest list in 5 years and marginally older than Gold Coast. You have continually plied the clap trap about short term bottoming out when the exact opposite has been demonstrated. "Iceberg What Iceberg?" Next year with have 2 PP picks in a strong draft. We will do more than tweak the list. And what do you think the FD have been doing all these years if you are now suggesting that "This list must learn and demand of each other winning, and if the team loses...work out why." Its amazing what your implying since you would gladly have Bailey back. Indeed.

If Australians hope for Tomic to be World #1 in the future then he is a mile off at the moment. What was presented last night was scary and awesome? i agree the Serbian is not arrogant. And FWIW, all the fussing over the women screaming/howling, does the mens grunting also qualify?

Its misused by people who mistaken it for foresight that should been obvious at the time of the event being reviewed. Thats revisionist rubbish without a basis of fact. Ball refused point blankly to meet with anyone from any other Club than Collingwood. There was a question at the time about his fitness and only Collingwood were given access to that. There was also the front loaded contract that Collingwood and Ball had agreed to that put him out of realistic contention for all other Clubs. The failure with Luke Ball was not on MFC's side. And given Collingwood was in a premiership window and right in the mix its fair more attractive for Ball to have been at Collingwood amongst the Swans, Pendlebury's etc then be the battering ram at a Club that had no defined ruck (like a Jolly) and bunch of kids that he would have to take the hit. We had no avenue to Ball with no surety he would have played for us or committed to us. We did need his type but there werent the other options....We could have kept McLean. Mitch Clark was still open to offers even though his preference was Freo and WAS prepared to talk to other parties. There was always a lever possible and well done to all that played a part in securing it. One of which would have been that the MFCof 2012 is alot more attractive potentially than MFC of 2010. Well done BBP. Up there with your vent on the regret the Club would feel for getting rid of TJ.

Of course tthe Club had to say something in response to some awful on field performance. To do otherwise would leave them open to glib suggestions that the Club are happy with [XX] goal drubbings and they would be open to ridicule if they did not provide a measured assessment of the timeline. I not sure that i can recall they mentioned "Premiership windows" or give a year when they think they can win the flag. They have given broad indicatives of when they want to appear in finals and that the players wont start to play consistent mature AFL football until they have a benchmark 50 games under their belt (For some it moght be more for some it might be less). But you can join the dots..... Unfortunately they do and from some of the posts on this thread from other posters further evidence this. The lack of patience in the younger players and the overambitions goals of some supporters have been brought crashing down to earth becasue they have ignored just what the reality of the list and fot ahead of themselves. And surely supporters, stakeholders and football public deserve to understand the broad plans that may have been approved by the Board from people like Stynes, Schwab and other designated FD people. Its unrealistic to think people will just play ostrich particular if on field performances are times well below par. He is still on his honeymoon and has not been tested as a coach. He has not coached a game and has not had to face off a loss....yet. Its too early to make statements Its been easy to date. He coos coos the supporters with a couple of broad generalisations and every one laps it up. He does not have to make predictions. He is still new as a Coach and does not have the torch (yet) on his belly. Assess him 2 years in. He might be a great coach in the making or he might be a dud or even somewhere in between. How do you know the Club dont believe that they can win a flag? I would think the FD know what it takes to win a flag and have the good sense to know when that time is. And guess what the cornerstone of any good plan is?......." Seize the day Now and build".

Cripes! I misread that and thougth Monty got 4 wkts. He did get six. Then there was definitely something wrong with the wicket!!!!

It would be interesting to hear what the quality of the wicket was like. In the 2nd Test both sides took two spinners in. A left arm ortho and an offie. Clearly one sides spinners were better than the others

Craig resigned/sacked/boned on 25 July 2011. Sellars was delisted at the end of that season. From Sellars record at Adeliade, Craig was not picking him much. it would have been doubtful that both could have been at the Crows in 2012.

Neeld is not starting from the depth of where Connolly and Bailey started. Neeld is still on his honeymoon at the moment and definitely on Dland. Bailey got the same early break until the reality set in of extent of our list problems. I wonder how the Board will light up if we start badly this year. The message being publicised by MFC came from Jim, Schwab, Cuddles and Bailey ad nauseam....patience, youth and development and that maturity of talented kids to mature AFL players takes time and there are no easy short cuts. And given some of the beltings we received and the post mortem reviews it was both reasonable and plausible to "educate" MFC stakeholders and the general public about whats happening. The Club would have looked uber foolish had it said we shooting for the flag this year (any of 2008 to 2011) when every man and his half sensible dog realised the journey we had to take. And it would extremely naive to think that because we did not publicise any flag plans that it was all part of the "accepting mediocrity" culture at MFC.

I think the false dawns in the 3 years you speak of reflect the recurring and limiting issues to ND's plan for a window. And the so called rebuild vintage 2002 was more of a tweak. The rebuild following ND's departure was a total one on and off the ground. You know in each of those years 2004-2006 with every glimmer of hope that we saw there was an equal seed of doubt. While the team and coach were flawed and history showed that, on the other hand we did well to get finals given the limitations of the list (much rode on the backs of Neitz, White Yze etc and all had their achilles heel and none were consistent A grade players), the carp facilities we had at Junction Oval, the crippling lack of FD funding and Board room instability that occur during ND's reign. This is not to exonerate ND but what ever card game he was seeking to play, he was not starting with a full deck of options.

Who is reminiscing on ND? Definitely flawed as a coach no doubt. And you are right about 2002. The gaps between where we were in 2002 and what the best was were significant. HIs window to correct things was small (access to dract picks/trades). He had to rely mostly on what he had in the list (positives and minuses there) and as you pointed out the performance 2004 to 2006 were fickle. Any coach would realise that there are no certainties in life but he had set himself to be in the window from 2006 onwards. Much changed both within the playing list and with the way football was being played. And you reference to 2004 2005 and 2006 ably demonstrate. I am sure ND knew too that he could not get there certainly by 2005. And when he sought to introduce a new game style in Rd 18(?) of 2006 to counter previous failures against Adelaide the signs were not good. For the record we went into all those finals with a questionable W/L record, no momentum and significant injuries. i dont think you were Robinson Crusoe there. However I dont see a problem with Coach planning and projecting when his best chance to snag a flag is (a window). Be history has proven him wrong but its hindsight only to be critical of ND for projecting that window

And some would say its bovious we should have used our first round pick in that year and draft Hird but no MFC prefer "choirboys".......

I think there ridiculous press conferences only back that lack of grit and fire in the belly. The senior Indian players have. I cant believe that when India on the Adelaide pitch had to try and bat 5 sessions that Sehwag launched a high risk 20/20 strategy. His flashy low regard for the situation millionaire innings was exactly what India did not need....;particularly from the Captain. At least with Australia, there would be soul searching, review and accountability. In India I doubt there will be much done about this. Aside from Yadav and Kohli who showed some spine particularly as the Tests got tougher the rest were a shambles. There 4 most experienced batsman collapsed into farce.

But you challenged the poster to come up with examples where givernance has been an issue? Would you like the supplementaries with the Tattslotto numbers as well? Hoepfully Jim and the Board can properly determine his reduced involvement in the Club (subject to his health demands) while maintaining a figure head role to the betterment of the Club going forward. While we all wish Jim well as he has been fighting a serious health condition for some time. I find it hard to believe that Garry the Board did not "realise" how sick Jim has been given his gaunt and frail public appearances and his public fight against the disease. Hopefully, the Board understand the true situation Jim is facing and have developed appropriate arrangements and infrastrucure to allow Jim's limited involvement and the Club to continue operate functionally.

Its a pity ND didnt have the marvellous intuition of hindsight like some Dland posters have. That was one of NDs flaws. How could he make such incorrect expectations of the future about 2006 back in 2003/2004?

I cant believe the Australia wont take beer with them on a tour of WI!!! Hasnt Beer disappeared from the scene. I think Lyon has left him in his wake. We didnt take two spinner to SA but it is unlikely he will tour the WI. But certainly one to watch. On a different note Zimbabwe lost 20 wickets in a day in Test against NZ. I have said for years that Zim and Bdesh should never have been given Test status. Once the Flowers left Zim, the country should have been expelled from the ICC http://www.espncricinfo.com/new-zealand-v-zimbabwe-2012/engine/current/match/520591.html

Absolutely. The glittering reign of the Warne has distorted people's expectations of a spinner. You could count yourself lucky, very lucky to unearth and McGill and we did that too. Albeit when Warne was around. We have only got 3 Tests against the Windies rather than the traditional 5 tests we used to have. I cant see us taking 2 spinners (let alone a player that has has little claim at this point to go). I note Byce in his last Shield game took 1-175 off 29 overs. Hardly baggy green stuff at this point. Certainly one to watch. I would always be keen to give a leggie a chance to come through but only when he shows he is ready for the call. He is still young at 22 yo. Hell one of the issues with Warne was that he shattered the myth that leggies dont mature until their 30. But then again Warne was a freak.

Good stat. I take back what I said about the WI. He will stay on for his 13000 run. As we head towards a comprehensive white wash of India 4-0. I cant think of more stunning thrashing given out to a visiting team with big reputations who was expected to win this series easily. Possibly in 74/75 when an unknown Lillee and Thommo destroyed the then healthy careers of Amiss, Edrich, Denniss, Fletcher of England The selectors, the players and the Captain deserve alot of praise. I cant work out how much because the India side have been putrid. The only highlights have been Kohli and Yadav. The rest would struggle to get a pass mark. I cant believe we have not got a century from one of Gambhir, Sehwag, Sachin, Laxman and Dravid. They have all got progressively worse as the series went on. And we did so without Watson, Pattinson and Cummins. Amazing. Dravid and Laxman are finished in Test Cricket. Sad end to fantastic players. I can see Sachin, Khan and Sehwag joining them within 2 years. And then there is Dhoni. What a rout. And we did it with a still unsettled top 3. Warner is the goods. Cowan blew a chance in Adelaide to grab the opening position. Marsh is gone.

Got my vote R'leg. Great analogy Old Dee with extremely old dee on the Kokoda. Festering only harms those that do it.

I hope they decide sensibly WJ because we dont want another "rescue mission"

Well done Demonstrative. Where have I said we should get rid of the current board?? FMD. I have been vilified here because I actually recognised he had been sick which has impaired his ability to function and pondered whether he was able to continue in the role. He has struggled over the past 12 months. The Board and Jim would surely recognised that and hopefully are more pro active than some of the thinking here. And I think your 2nd sentence completely misses the point too.

I didnt bring it in at all. I made a tongue in cheek reference to those who have been labelled "believers" and "detractors". I have already outlined in my previous post what i would like to see and why. Your effort at asserting agendas on others to somehow pump your tyres is pathetic to say the least. And also stop the melodramatic "cold heartless human" pretence. And its even remarkable that you then suggest that Jim will continue at MFC in a small capacity. I already canvassed that in post # 102. But I forget you cant follow discussions only bring them down to a LCD level where you regularly hide. Hopefully, the Board had given due consideration of life without Jim. Stynes has publicly said he has had a reprieve. I have already suggested given the near term experience that he might want to spend his limited energies with his family. How long he will be around no one knows. But its pity you have use someone's else ill health to make a cheap shot. Just another tacky lack of judgment from you. Agreed. Absolutely. The same goes for the Bentleigh which was initiated under Gutnick's rule and was carried through Szondy and Gardiner to Stynes. The issue is not the problems with the previous Board. Its the issue of providing credit for current initiatives. While a number of excellet initiatives have been undertaken by the Stynes admin. there have been a number of other initiatives that have pre dated this group but the current admin has been wrongly given sole credit. CS and DB should be held responsible for the actions. And the so called "war" was in the FD where Jim Stynes had personal control. From the past 12 months there are issues with the Boards performance and its the President who should be ensuring that the Board members fulfil their obligations. The sacking by phone was appalling but its in the past. And the details leading up to the sacking are in the public space. McLardy should not have had to go directly to the players either. So what happens next WJ?

Hear Hear. Particularly the ironic reference to :"groupthink". The misrepresentation of those that have asked the question is Jimmy well enough to continue in a demanding role His health issues have clearly hindered that) and has the Board now got in place the proper structures to ensure the wheels did not come loose again like they did last year is laughable. And the questions that are asked and standards expectaed of our on field leaders, players, coaches etc surely can be expected of the senior off field people. If this is seen as too heretical for some and the non believers infidels then that is more a reflection of the accusers. Proper responsibility and accountability at all levels of the Club should not be so difficult for people. Oh welll.....