Deespicable

A surprisingly tricky selection night coming and with wait on Fritter and maybe Brayshaw.

Six players have good cases to come in - Harmes, Sparrow, Weid, Chandler and Bowey and Petty.

The obvious outs are Tomlinson and Jones (he was 23rd anyway) and then it's a question of whether they want to pull the trigger on Baker and Melky or rest up a player for balance.

Great to see so many people have finally cottoned on to the fact that ANB provides something, although clearly he went from riches to rags in this game. Can't see him missing though and that means Chandler has to wait. Could be sub.

There's also no obvious spot down back for Bowey at moment, so he has to wait. Could be the sub.

Harmes and Sparrow clearly come in and Baker probably didn't do quite enough and his absence allows Brayshaw to move back to the wing.

As for Petty, does he come in for T.Mac, who didn't do anything wrong down back in an impressive second half against Roos. So I'd say we have to play T.Mac at this stage and if he goes back to his low-kicking turnover days then Petty comes in.

Then it's whether we want to ditch Melky to make room for Weid and a reshuffled offence. I would, because so far this year Melky hasn't provided enough pressure, so playing an extra tall won't hurt us. But against the quicker Swans I could well understand if we want to go with more pace and if that's the case then Chandler comes back into the equation for Melky. If Fritter is out then Weid definitely plays. 

Tough choices and nobody is right or wrong on this one at this point.

Out: Tomlinson, Baker, Melky, Jones

In: Harmes, Sparrow and Weid or Chandler.

6 Fritter 

5 May

4 Salem

3 Jackson

2 Kossie

1 Oliver

I certainly get the logic of not changing a winning formula and reading Goody's comments today he's decided he won't alter his line-up also with Brown and Weid to play North's VFL side on Thursday.

And I also get that anyone who suggests a change against that philosophy at the moment is going to be howled down.

But I am sorry, I just reckon that now is the perfect time to trial our planned new-look forward set-up which was halted in early Feb when Weid and Brown went down with injuries.

I certainly understood the logic of staying loyal last week against Richmond and it paid off in droves. But there is no logic in keeping an elite footballer like Brown (my understanding he's our fifth highest paid player) in the twos simply because we are winning. 

I mean let's say we win against North (which you have got to say is mega likely with our odds $1.01 at Sportsbet), then what are you gonna say to him - sorry I don't want to change a winning line-up. And what say we win against the following two weeks - home games against Sydney and Carlton - sorry Browny, you have to keep playing with Casey?

Let's say it was Oliver who had been injured, would we be willing to make room for him or tell him he has to play VFL until we lose.

Ultimately we have to confront and trial the three-headed monster and delaying the inevitable is just poor planning.

Let's find out if it works and what tweaks need to be made to it well before the finals. 

6 Gawn - What a captain's game, laced by great goal.

5 Lever - Brilliant marshalling of our defence, critical with May out.

4 Langdon - Has anyone noticed how confident we are going down the wings now and how good is this guy. He will be tagged harder from now on.

3 T.Mac - with Fritter out, we needed one of our talls to step up and he was very good all day presenting.

2 Hibberd - Salem got more of the ball but Hibbo was sensational. His link up work was just amazing and he still played tight and tough like Nev.

1 Kossie - Sometimes you have to give a bloke a vote for negating. Which Hawk has been cutting it up this season - CJ. And I lost count the number of times CJ was under pressure from Kossie. And Kossie was damaging going forward as well.

As to Oliver. Yes I know I'm marking him hard, but he was again ineffectual for large parts of the game as he went about the easy gives and I am sick of him trying to milk frees like he tried against Frosty. God he'd be good if he really believed in himself. He has all the tools - just needs to stop playing Robin to Trac's Batman and start realising that he can be as valuable as Chris Judd with his linebreaking speed. 

It was great to see the impact Hibberd had down back - and as I said last week, it was critical he played in place of Jetta because he provides the left-side attack that we were going to miss with May out and Petty doesn't get involved in as much offence and we couldn't afford having two dour negaters in our back six. So thankfully Goody and MC didn't go through with the "we won't change a winning line up" plan.

As to this week.

Firstly on Petty. Yes I get that he didn't have a great game but historically he has shown he gets very nervy and takes a while to settle into his new role. But he is a beautiful mark (when relaxed) and well and truly up to the level and will be way better should he end up on Riewoldt this week. But that said, should May be fit, Petty is the one that should be left out - Tomlinson is in great form and Petty will get more chances later in the season.

The forward issue is an extremely tricky one for Goody, especially if Fritter gets up. I can't see him go away from playing three small forwards providing tackle pressure in his seven-man forward mix so all of Spargo/ANB and Kossie will play. Obviously Mitch Brown as last cab in, will be first one out to make way for Fritter (if fit) or one of the two talls. But should Fritter be available, will Goody bite the bullet and add another big boy to our mix. Is it the right game to trial a whole new look? If he does then I'd expect Melky's experience to mean that he will be sent into the midfield at Jordon's expense. 

18 hours ago, Demonland said:

Jordon had a great game. Would be very stiff. 

Please don't keep endorsing this utter crap and get some perspective.

James Jordon is a kid who works hard and has learnt his craft from a very strong midfield group for three years now.

Because he is a kid, the expectations are not as high and the coach is only going to say nice things about him at a press conference.

But Jordon is yet to do anything that stands out - anyone who saw what Hibberd brought first up knows what I mean - and while his work ethic is high, there is no guarantee yet that he will make it because he is not quick and he is not an exceptional kick and as a kid he is not yet ready to take the game on and invariable goes the safe option.

He may yet develop into a serviceable hard-working tagging-type mid of the Matt de Boer or Levi Greenwood variety, but he ain't going to be a star and he is a long way off having a great game ... yet.

So if you are going to use the Demonland moniker as the voice of reason, please don't come out with inflated-hype that a marketing man would use. 

12 hours ago, 58er said:

Jordan will play Goody has said so already.

Yes, reading the tea leaves it sounds like there will only be one change to our 23 from last week with May and Fritter out and our 23rd man Sparrow automatically in because we don't want to alter a winning line up. That means one of Petty or Hibberd is in as are Jetta and Jordon, who have barely touched it but have played a role in the first four weeks.

It should be noted that the Dogs continue to make changes and drop players, even though they have been winning - just ask their vice-captain Mitch Wallis. Similarly Sydney brought in Buddy the other week, despite all the wins. But because it's such a shock to our system to actually win each week, our match committee is having a drunken orgy and has decided to just leave things how they are - and just have faith in  the boys that did the job the previous week.

So actually looking at ways to best cover losing our best left-foot defender and our best left-foot forward are irrelevant until we lose or we get another injury.

4 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

Just trying to figure out how Fritter is only on one vote. I thought you randomly took three lots of votes from Demonlanders each week? If that's the case, did you only choose ones where he didn't feature as nine out of 10 of us had him in their votes?

Sorry, just did a count - five out 10 had Fritter in their votes. But still one vote only!

35 minutes ago, Demonland said:

This is probably a sign of the times but we have a terrific contest on our hands at the top of the leader board:-

38. Christian Petracca

34. Max Gawn 

33. Jake Lever Clayton Oliver 

24. Ed Langdon

18. Steven May 

16. Christian Salem 

12. Kysiah Pickett

11. Jayden Hunt 

10. Jack Viney 

7. Tom McDonald 

3. Angus Brayshaw

2. Charlie Spargo

1. Bayley Fritsch James Jordon Alex Neal-Bullen Adam Tomlinson

Just trying to figure out how Fritter is only on one vote. I thought you randomly took three lots of votes from Demonlanders each week? If that's the case, did you only choose ones where he didn't feature as nine out of 10 of us had him in their votes?

I know the philosophy that you don't change a winning formula, but sometimes you just have to.

May's injury not only means we have lost a big, but also means we have lost one of our two key left-footers an underrated ingredient because when we kick to the Ponsford Stand end we invariably go down Langdon's AFL members wing.

The Hawks generally play three big bigs - O'Brien, Ceglar and Lewis - so Petty is required and his form pre-season and in the VFL matches has been unbelievably good.

I was a bit concerned to read Petty only played half a game for Casey last week, but was told it was to do with having a back-up 24th man for Cats. So presuming he is available, he is in - full stop. If not then Joel Smith will be required and he's fit and ready and his body is strong enough now to cope with O'Brien, leaving Lever to peel off Lewis.

Hibberd also has to come in. You don't leave quality out for too long and his left-foot is needed with May out and whilst we all love Nev for his courage and the fact that he has triumphed in adversity, he just has to make way this week.

Given Ben Brown needs another week, then the only other change is to switch our sub role - Sparrow replacing Jordon on the field at the start.

In: Petty (Smith if Petty injured), Hibberd, Sparrow (last week's sub)

Out: May (inj), Jetta, Jordon (this week's sub)

2 hours ago, DubDee said:

Jetta has been written off and underrated for 10 years. He’ll just keep proving people wrong. 

so important to have a steady head and leadership for Rivers and Hunt especially with May down. Our defence is the best structurally I’ve seen in my 33 years supporting the club. 

Jetta has been a great member of our defence since Roosy elevated him in 2014 (so 10 years is a stretch)and reached his zenith in 2018 (last time he was in All-Australian mix).

Jaded you asked for examples from Sunday's game.

I'd have to go back and look at tape but off top of head.

Poor tackle in first term - goal Clark?

Dropped key intercept mark in last quarter - Hawkins goal.

This is on top of a very ordinary start against Greene last week.

And he again was unable to provide any drive at all from down back. 

I can cope with his low possession numbers and low tackle numbers because he usually plays in the back three and the ball often is not down there, but how many great goalsaving bits of play this year can you recite to me Jaded or DubDee.

And then there's the issue that Hibberd also generally plays in the back three, is a senior member of our side like Jetta and is a left footer who gets more involved in offence which is something we will miss with May out and Hibbo has had to wait three weeks for a game because we have been winning and the coach finally figured out the importance of loyalty.

Sorry I differ a bit and just loved the way Hunt played yesterday - so much run and pressure and he hit targets. Fritter was great, but it was hard to get over his two first quarter blunders.

No votes for him, but also pleased that Tomlinson again showed that he is getting more and more comfortable down back and this time he had to cope with Hawkins from early in 2nd, but he just misses top six. 

6 Trac

5 Gawn

4 Hunt

3 Fritsch

2 Viney

1 Langdon

Hard to see many changes and delighted that our coach finally gave his senior men first crack at it last week, rather than blood a youngster because he was excited about there early season form. For example the Pies went down that road with Henry this year and now have to drop him for Rd 2 - great for a kids confidence.

But agree Viney, Hibberd and Melky all have to be considered and if fully fit would all get games. With such long games again, clubs are going to have to be very careful making sure a player has major fitness background before selecting them.

If deemed fit Viney would come in for Sparrow and Hibberd would come in for Jetta most likely (Rivers and Hunt needed for Butler and Higgins), but really find it difficult choosing who would make room for Melky after that game. 

Roy Ward usually does the basketball, so you can imagine why he just looked at stats and names and went with those.

Unfortunately the papers are doing it on the cheap these days. The Herald Sun is actually using a former Age writer Ronny Lerner as a freelancer via there newswire service - they no longer use AAP. Ronny is one of the better ones.

But the papers now use their handful of regulars to either write colour or do detailed preview features and relying on inexperienced cheaper staff to do games - hence why the votes will be way off open occasions.

The Herald Sun's James Mottershead gave Steven May the three and at least had Andrew Brayshaw, who was everywhere, in the votes, but somehow he ignored all of Trac's early errors and gave him two votes.  

On 3/20/2021 at 4:56 PM, dee-tox said:

Just no. Had a shocker.

Just no. Didn't have a shocker.

Gawn came up against a junior Sandi in Meek who outjumped him early, but Gawn altered his style and took control of the hitouts.

He still marked the ball well on a few occasions in defence, but was unable to get near it up forward partly because he rested up there more into the wind (Ponsford Stand end) and his suppliers couldn't get enough purchase or height on the footy to play to his advantage. So it was a pretty ineffectual game from our big fella and aside from GWS ruckman, most rucks had less influence because there was less ball-ups. Gawny was way better than Meek, although I'm sure Longmuir would have been pleased with his man for stopping Gawny dominating. But why even use the term 'shocker'. 

Correct NeverO, it remains our one list spot where we did not solve in the off-season, although Smith was a good attempt.

VDB, if fit, would be my choice, but I accept that given he can only train twice a week because of his foot issues, he can't really be used in such a demanding running role.

Rosman hopefully develops into that role and he is a left-footer with a tank and he also provides the height balance given Langers is on the small side. All of that makes him on paper the right choice, but he is still a fair way off with his kicking skills and tackling pressure unless we want to rush him along. 

To me there is only one player on our list who is ready to play that role and would add spark to the position and that is Kossie.

I'd also consider a fully fit Viney in that role given he is a leftie and because of our plethora of inside mids. Bit worried about Viney's pace against someone like a Hill or even Hunter but I reckon a few hard tackles by Jack will make any player a little more wary.

It is always pleasing to see a discarded player getting another chance and we all should be wishing Oscar well.

Many of you might wonder why we never tried him as a forward (except for two games where he played there out of desperation) and that is an indictment on Goody and the match committee - especially given his brother's switch to CHF in 2018 was a light-bulb moment for our side. Oscar is a superior kick to Tommy and my understanding is that he spent most of his junior career playing up forward. Ultimately however his lack of pace and intensity may have terminated that experiment as well.

Those of you who watched his game for Carlton against St Kilda will have seen his strength and limitations on display. They are missing quite a few bigs at moment so he gets his chance and his tank and kicking will make him quite useful and like his brother he has clean hands when marking. But whether he can improve his intensity in the contest will determine how long he stays with the Blue-baggers.

One week ago Goody and our coaches and Gawny were spruiking about how we had finally understood that there was no 'i' in team. Now they would be in the midst of a painful review after a game where we were exposed by a vastly superior midfield - although clearly our absentees were a mitigating factor.

It was similar last year when after beating the Pies, we lost to the Dogs midfield and the result was that there were scapegoats - last year it was Lockhart and T.Mac who we didn't see again in 2020.

But aside from the changes below, the key will be getting the side back to having the confidence to mix long-bombing attack with the chip kick through the middle that breaks up defences. The chip kick disappeared after half time against the Dogs as their press took hold. Those of us who have watched training have been impressed by the accuracy of our kicks (when it's not blowing a gale at Casey that is), yet many of our forays forward in the second half against the Dogs included pressurised handballs in the chain.

To me, the key selection issues are whether Petty comes in as a forward (he has spent the entire pre-season as a defender) at the expense of T.Mac as a forward and our problem left-side wing - do we keep backing in Baker, do we play Petty at CHF and use T.Mac there to allow us a tall marking outlet, do we send Brayshaw there or do we take a huge risk on his fitness and play Kossie there so that we utilise his pace and tackling ability? Or do we go back to VDB's hardness knowing he can't really run out the game.  Personally I'd go a mix of VDB (limited game time), Kossie and Angus, but a more rationale approach given fitness and pre-season work ethic probably says Baker should play there first up. 

In terms of first-gamers, Jordon's spot depends on Viney's availability, while I have Bowey in, unless Hibberd is viewed as fit to play.

Virtual newbie Chandler has to wait as Spargo and Jones deserve the first shot as small forwards.

Defenders (7): May, Lever, Tomlinson, Rivers, Hunt, Salem and Bowey. Note: Hibberd if fit replaces Bowey for Rd 1. Jetta stays in if Salem is ruled out.

Midfield (8): Gawn, Oliver, Petracca, Langdon, Harmes, Brayshaw, Viney (Jordon), plus either Baker or Vanders.

Forwards (7): Jackson, T.Mac (Petty is too big a call I think given his pre-season training), Fritter, ANB,  Spargo, Kossie, Jones.

It's an interesting debate - one of your better posts Werridee, although I feel a team is coming from you!

There is now a big four of the post-war era - Barassi, Flower, Garry (two Rs) Lyon and Gawny.

I was too young to see Barass play - but his infuence on our ability to win games is undoubted. From the replays I've seen, he certainly wasn't our most skilled player - courage and leadership being his mantra.

Flower was skills and poise personified but needed a strong, tough team around him to really bring out those virtues which he never had until his final year of 1987 - he almost always was in the best when he played for the Vics though.

People underestimate Garry Lyon. He was such a clever, smooth mover who was thrown into defence late by Swooper Northey to save games and 9 times out of 10 he did just that. He was magic in his early 20s, but dodgy hamstrings cost him when he should have been the most dominant.

And now we have Gawny. How do you rate our best mark in history against the other three who were dominant at ground level as well. Is he overrated because he only plays one position and he's the best we've had in it? I think most people now realise Gawny influence is right across the ground. To me he's gone past Dean Cox as the best tap man of the 21st century and I reckon a flag will take him past Simon Madden as the best ruckman ever. 

As I said on the game-day thread, what was most pleasing was that Goody, for the first time in his career as coach, did not rush in his first-year men, and stuck with his senior men over raw kids who all showed glimpses pre-season, but are not seasoned footballers yet!

The choice of Sparrow, Jordan, Chandler and Baker - all third-year men - over these first year excitement machines was totally appropriate and ensures that they don't get disenchanted with their coach and let's face it, as good as Bowey, Laurie and Rozman have looked at training - these four have done their apprenticeship and deserve a chance.

All four may ultimately not be quite good enough, but at least now they will know and we will know.

Even better was the decision to give Jones and Jetta a chance before these kids. Both may be too old ... and now too slow, but they still have the smarts and do the team role player things with strong bodies hardened from years of weights.

There were heaps missing with at least six players likely to press for Rd 1 selection injury permitting - Brayshaw, Melky, J.Smith, Viney, VDB and Kossie - I think Hibbo, B.Brown and Weid are all confirmed non-Rd 1 starters - but the nucleus of the side is still there and we have at least two more players in the twos who are ready when called - Petty and Lockhart.

Both Gale and Balme made mention of our pace in transition. We have been slow in the past and now have a better balance with our outside/inside run. Richmond, of course, is getting older and they were missing Rioli who is mega quick.

But the one player who has transformed the pace issue is the move of Jayden Hunt back to defence. He was beaten badly a couple of times over the back by Castagna in the second term, but kept providing line-breaking dash and against Richmond who zone and peel off and block with precision, such players are vital. Rivers also did it a couple of times, his baulk and bounce and 50m kick from a kick-in one of the highlights.

The other thing that  surprised me was that we played four small up forward crumbing Jackson and T.Mac and Fritta and Gawn (when there) as well as providing the short option which is now more likely under the man on mark rule. All four - Spargo, Jones, Chandler and ANB - pressured hard all game. And our best small forward - Kossie - wasn't out there. The decision for Goody now is whether he continues to back in the four small forward set up or tries to solve his problems when everyone is fit by slotting Trac or Melky and Sparrow into the forward mix to accommodate Viney and Brayshaw.

The other pleasing thing is that it looks like we will use Gawn and Jackson as more of a tandem ruck-forward weapon this year which is great. 

Onwards and upwards.

1 minute ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

Well, there was the mark to Baker that wasn't paid.  That was a bit of a shocker and Rivers was still having a go at the ump five minutes later.  Especially when the same ump paid a mark to Aarts shortly after where he never had control of the ball. 

Yes, but that decision had no impact on game - the Chol one did - he scored a goal from it.

Continuing from previous game-day thread.

final term

1) Chandler given the all-clear to return and then snags one with a left-foot banana on the run. Hunt a key part of the transition goal. Chandler's three goals and tackle pressure will probably see him play round 1, subject to a solid effort against Dogs next week. We played four small up front and we still have Kossie to add to that group, so one will likely miss out Rd 1.

2) Tigers started playing kids - fresh legs versus inexperience so hard to say who had the bigger advantage.

3) We got a good run with umps - home game and no Tiger feral influencing decisions. Only bad call was when Chol got free on a highish spoil by Tomlinson.

Best three: 3) Gawn (easily), 2 Olly had a huge last quarter to snare this spot. 1) Lever - at least six intercept marks plus plenty of involvement down back. Trac good as well, but had horror 2nd term.

40 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

2nd term;

1) We saw the good and bad of Hunt. His opponent Castagna got off leash and is probably Tigers best. But Jayden provided run and dash and his one-two with Jordan and then long kick to T.Mac saw him take us from deep defence to forward line in an instant - Tiger defenders had no chance of switching to stop it. T.Mac missed shot - unusual for him.

2) Trac (our best quarter one) had shocking quarter with terrible disposal, Chandler and Jones running into space as small forwards impressive.

3) Gawn resting forward when Jacko goes on ball is huge and a point of difference that is exploiting Tiger defence.  

3rd term.

1) Gawn's goal from outside 50m and general play excellent. Easily BOG at this stage but will be required big time to stave off Tigers who have wind this quarter.

2) Highlights: Rivers took one kick-in and dummied, had bounce and with wind sent it the edge of our forward 50m. Oliver's goal from ball-up where he had give-go with Trac and then wobbled it home. Lowlight: Chandler off with what looked a serious wrist injury.

3) Super team goal with Spargo handball over head, ANB deliberate handball under players leg leading to Chandler goal.

Tough quarter coming up against the wind.

And one more thing - Harmes everywhere running his [censored] off - he's in our best three so far today - ignore other commentators.

35 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

Early thoughts:

1) It looks like Goody has finally figured out there is no need to rush in new players just because they look good at training - Jones and Jetta get games, while our third year men - Jordan, Sparrow, Chandler and Baker all get game time ahead of younger rivals.

2) Lever strong in air, Spargo vision, Trac brilliance, Baker and Langdon tackling.

3) It seems when Tiger bigs get free kick or mark in middle of ground we will sag off and ignore manning mark - thereby forcing their bigs to make right attacking decision.

just one quarter though

 

2nd term;

1) We saw the good and bad of Hunt. His opponent Castagna got off leash and is probably Tigers best. But Jayden provided run and dash and his one-two with Jordan and then long kick to T.Mac saw him take us from deep defence to forward line in an instant - Tiger defenders had no chance of switching to stop it. T.Mac missed shot - unusual for him.

2) Trac (our best quarter one) had shocking quarter with terrible disposal, Chandler and Jones running into space as small forwards impressive.

3) Gawn resting forward when Jacko goes on ball is huge and a point of difference that is exploiting Tiger defence.