Macca

People should remember that we hardly had a good player in 2013 when Toumpas had his debut year ... and last year, he obviously had some health issues when we consider he missed the last 3rd of the season because of an appendix complication. He may or may not end up becoming a good player but if we give him the same amount of time to develop as we have many others on our list, then ruling a line through him now is grossly unfair. All things considered, I view him more as a 2nd year draftee because of the appalling way he was handled in his first year and because of his health issues last year (just imagine what it must have been like to walk into our dysfunctional club as an 18 year old in late 2012) Is Petracca going to be viewed as a 1st or 2nd year player next year? Hogan this year? Roos obviously has a lot more faith in him than many here - I reckon it's dawned on Paul that we've got quite a few on our list that aren't up to it (and many of those players have been on the list for a lot longer than Toumpas - and they're in the 2's right now) As it stands today, it was hard for him to make a big impact with the 27 minutes of game time that he got - 6 possessions was ok and he ran hard in the last quarter to create options. Nothing startling but nowhere near as bad as some are making out. The team had a collective total of 40 clangers so let's not hang the bloke for his one smothered handball attempt (which, ironically, resulted in a goal to Lumumba) And by the way, I neither love/like Toumpas nor do I hate him. I just judge him in the same way as I judge any other player with it all in front of him - his draft pick number means absolutely nothing to me - nor do the silly comparisons to Wines. He's still very raw and needs time, patience and good development.

Vince will probably come in but maybe for an injured player (there's nearly always at least one injury) Dawes might have to wait a bit but again, if we have at least one injury, he'll probably get a guernsey - our 3 talls in the forward line worked well together and they also worked well with the crumbers, so why would you change that? I wouldn't be pushing Frost into the backline in a hurry - our backline worked nicely together as well so again, why change the make-up? Match-ups against the giants might decide things. Toumpas only had 27 minutes of game time for 6 touches compared with Kent (66/10) & JKH (81/13) so I'm not so sure he's such an obvious out. I'll go with the consensus with Toumpas making way for Vince (if there isn't an injury) but we need to look at how Roos often uses his sub - last year, a couple of players (especially Salem) had 3/4 weeks in the role And then there's the old adage of never changing a winning side. Today's win was a tremendous team effort so we could see a "no change" decision. I don't believe next weeks selected side it's as cut and dried as some might think.

Clearances 9-8 in their favour Inside 50's ... 12-8 in our favour. Contested possessions 41-28 in our favour We should be further in front but we look like a football side at last.

Yeah, apart from a myriad of other nonsense comments emanating from said person, Wyl He doesn't particularly bother me but I see others wasting their time on his inflammatory comments. In turn, threads can get clogged up with needless debate.

Dr Who is back - don't let him waste your time, folks. Those who have been on this site for long enough will know all about him - it takes all types but this bloke is just an attention seeking time waster - a concern troll who deliberately makes comments to inflame debate based on nonsense.

Dr Who is back haha

I like the way a number of the muso's (including Miles) trot off and have a ciggie - during the song! Classic. I really like 'A Kind of Blue' too ... it's taken about a dozen listens but not only is the song a great one but it really shows off Davis' talent with the trumpet. Jazz24.org (jazz 24/7)

Ronny Jordan was almost certainly influenced by George Benson but he had his own distinct style all the same ... I only discovered him a few years ago when I got back into listening to jazz a lot more ... died young (last year) early 50's ... too young really. I don't like being too pushy with music but he was and still is a favourite of mine. Like a lot of artists, they can often be an acquired taste and need multiple listens to really appreciate ... Ronny Jordan was one of those artists. Anyway, while I'm here, here's the Miles Davis version of 'So What' followed by 'A Kind of Blue' Jazz is perfectly suited to late Saturday nights and Sundays ... for whatever reason, it just works.

Here's a couple from the late, great Ronny Jordan First, one of my favourites ... 'At Last' then a version of a song that Miles Davis made famous called .. 'So What'

Thought I'd bump up the team again ... Those missing who played late in the season last year (any of the last 3 games) include ... Barry, Dawes, Frawley, Gawn, Grimes, M Jones, Michie, Riley, Vince, Bail, Fitzpatrick, Pedersen & McKenzie. That's quite a turnaround in personnel but I like the look of the new side - it remains to be seen how we will operate as a team (with all the changes) but on paper at least, the side picked has a much more solid look about it. Best of luck to all the new players ps ... quietly confident

I've changed my tune to a degree on older players ... too many of them are having their better years in their 30's (one could argue that Johnson, Clarke, Harris, Rogers, Haddin et al are all playing as well as they've ever played - hell, even Watto might do a 'negative split' ) Good summary anyway Nasher and I wish Voges and Ahmed all the best - they've fully deserved their call up's. Siddle too - that '7 for' haul against South Australia late in the season would have helped - he's a good 3rd seamer who can slot into his role with ease (it looks to me to be a play safe move by the selectors - in case of injury to any of the favoured 4 other quicks) I like the fact that we've picked a reserve keeper for 'both' tours as well - haven't seen a lot of Nevill but he's been around for a time. Am I right in saying that we only play 2 tests against the Windies? It's such a shame that this once great match-up has been reduced to Australia only touring for 2 tests. It should be 3 tests regardless. All the same, it looks a very good squad to me.

Fair enough, one thing I'm reasonably sure on is that the legal action and litigation from certain players could go for years. Those legal actions can have ramifications for Essendon of course (especially if records of the injection program are produced) But the biggie for me is WADA and the CAS in Switzerland (if it happens) I'd like to share your confidence that it will happen but I'm hoping that this at least goes to the CAS (we can't rule out that the verdict from the CAS may go either way) I can't help but feel that the Hal Hunter legal action holds the key - of course, things could be settled out of court but there will be others going down the same track you'd think. The whole thing isn't going away in a hurry. The decision on Dank is a major ingredient too - He could go 'all rogue' but isn't he doing that already

And there lies the problem ... those who question the verdict are being lumped together as conspiracy theorists or Essendon haters when all we really want is the truth and/or the right answers. ASADA are now being discredited in the same way that USADA were ... it's almost a carbon copy in fact. ASADA become an easy head to kick because they lost. If they are severely underfunded, that's hardly their fault. To my way of thinking, they ended up in a battle against the AFL. It would be difficult for ASADA to have any chance of 'winning' if that's true. WADA probably have a much better chance of getting a favourable result. The delaying tactics was all Essendon's doing yet ASADA get blamed for being tardy? Jobe Watson allowed himself to be injected hundreds of times to the stomach region with 'unknown substances' ... yet he is portrayed as a victim - I refuse to buy into that. .

It seems that ASADA/WADA can only pursue individuals or groups of individuals, not organisations or teams (such as Essendon) Or at least, that's what I've been told (can't find a link to confirm) I'm assuming it to be true otherwise it might have been far easier to pursue Essendon and get them banned (thus, by default, ensuing the players couldn't play for the club - they could play elsewhere you'd think) Again, I can't confirm any of the above but can someone else? Dees2014? Also, the AFL punished Essendon for governance issues but could they or would they punish Essendon for importing PED's? (with a view to using them) At the time when the AFL punished Essendon for governance issues, it couldn't be confirmed that Essendon had imported PED'S with a view to using them (that area is still clouded but there is a fair bit of truth attached to Essendon importing PED's) Edit: added last 2 paragraphs

It's far from being over ... ASADA and/or WADA can appeal (I'm expecting WADA to appeal to the CAS in Switzerland) And ... Ex-Bomber Hal Hunter steps up supplements case against Essendon Essendon and the AFL could be investigated by WorkSafe Victoria over supplements saga Edit: HH has already posted the WORKSAFE story (above)

I'm thinking that ASADA step aside (done discretely of course) and WADA step in and go after the club instead (at the CAS) First of all, are they able to do this and if they are able to do this, they'd then need to have proof that the TB4 can be placed at the club (and imported in) If what you say is true, that proof isn't there yet or at least in the tribunals eyes, it isn't there. I believe ASADA going after the players alone is probably not going to work - unless there's new, irrefutable evidence. But then again, we haven't seen the actual findings of the tribunal yet so there may be more to this than meets the eye.

WADA might be able to implicate Essendon at the court of arbitration in Switzerland but not the players ... do they have the power to do that? Can they change tack? If they can place the TB4 at Essendon and prove that Essendon imported it in as such, Essendon could be found guilty and face sanctions. We know they received sanctions from the AFL for governance issues but that wasn't a WADA ruling.

McDevitt made mention of Dank in his press conference - along the lines of 'tell us what you know' & 'produce the records'. Of course, Dank is at the centre of all this so McDevitt does have a point. If WADA can place the TB4 at Essendon they might be able swing it their way in Switzerland but as has been pointed out in the above posts, it's not like the players ordered the TB4 in. I reckon WADA/ASADA are going to need some new evidence - something along the lines of Dank admitting that he injected the players with TB4 ... what are the chances of that happening? How reliable would his testimony be and if he produced the records, could the records be believed anyway? It's not like they would have been signed off on. If Charter spoke up as well it might help but with so many different 'supplements' involved, it would be difficult for those deciding the fate of the 34 players to be able to come up with a guilty verdict. If the tribunal comes down really hard on Dank, he might decide to do a 'tell all' ... but ASADA only have 21 days to act and then WADA get a further 21 days after that time expires.

Not confident but I believe that a guilty verdict will be handed down May not be all 34 though

I was thinking more about the penalties handed down by the tribunal with the added effect of the AFL satisfying the public ... we're talking public image, perceived tranparency, expediency, etc etc ... with WADA/ASADA accepting those penalties. We may see a mixture of different penalties and/or a result that is designed to end this saga (litigation aside) All along, the AFL & the Bombers have known that a large percentage of the footy public have wanted this whole saga to just go away. So. "give 'em what they want" may end up being the story of the day. Nothing would surprise me 'dp' However, like most other people, I'm just speculating - one thing I do know is that there is a lot that we don't know. It's difficult for anyone to draw accurate conclusions given the circumstances.

Upsets can always happen of course but if we do win our first game, it might mean a number of players have stepped it up. What I was looking for in the pre-season was for those who should be stepping it up to do so - that didn't really happen. I'm specifically talking about those players who have been in the system for 4+ years. It seems they might have max'd out and if that's true, that doesn't bode well for our chances. However, if Dunn, Jetta, Howe, T-Mac, Jamar, Watts, Dawes & Garland can mostly improve to substantial levels along with Grimes, Kent, JKH, Viney, Toumpas, Michie, Gawn & Pedersen mostly improving to better than reasonable levels, we may end up with 8-10 wins. We could assume that Lumumba, Garlett, Salem, Hogan & Frost will all add a lot to our chances but on an overall basis, there's a lot of if's and but's. I'm cautiously hopeful for a 6-8 win season but that evaluation may change if we win our first game .

Yeah, I meant satisfied in the sense that it would be final. WADA wouldn't appeal, the players cop their penalties because they have to, the AFL can move on and the Essendon club also cop their penalties because they have to. That's if there are any penalties of course - I'm expecting an inconsistent outcome but I can't see them being exonerated fully. There's always that "bringing the game into disrepute bit" 'bb'

I reckon it's crossed a lot of people's minds (all the way from the beginning) I'm ready for any sort of outcome and have prepared for all those outcomes. All the way to envisaging the AFL's relationship with WADA/ASADA in the future ... and the penalty for Crowley. I'm expecting a largely inconsistent outcome because that's what we've seen previously with regards to most things related to the AFL. The brand and the money will almost certainly be protected - that bit will be at the forefront of the ultimate decision. It won't end on Tuesday because of the possible/probable litigation but a number of 'out of court' settlements could be expected. Who knows where it will end up but it could drag on for years - however, the stuff that drags on may well be right out of the spotlight. Our media do things their way - not necessarily the right way. Not sure whether to believe this bit but wasn't it reported previously that the outcome was going to satisfy all the major players? (Essendon, the AFL, the players and WADA/ASADA)

Good call ... should be a great match. Interesting that this is Australia's 7th final in 11 attempts (we've won 4 world cups of course) It'll be tough but I expect a 5th triumph - however, if the Kiwi's get up, it'll be well deserved on their part.

Another from "BCS" (ep 8) This time Galt MacDermot with 'Coffee Cold' from his album Woman is Sweeter/Shapes of Rhythm (review and samples)