nutbean

Don't take offence Jamoose, there are those on here who will have the attitude of Nutbean but that is not representative of everyone. There are many different sides to this story and it's good to hear them all. Some people will be immediately dismissive, it's just the nature of the beast round here.

I hope I have shown some logic in this whole 1000's post thread. The only thing I am dimissive of is the premise that Tom Scully really wants to sign with us but his management won't let him.

Can you imagine any contract that takes the decision making ability away from the footballer and gives it to the manager. I cant think of anyone who would agree with that.

I have said on this site countless times - I fully appreciate his managements stance on delaying and I even appreciate Tom heeding the advice of his management but please spare me the idea that Tom is saying " if it wasnt for my damned management I would have already signed by now"

This is the only part of the post I have a problem with

"toms management putting off contract negotiations not tom. Tom would re-sign if he could he said."

Give me a break.

Are u serious mate im trying to provide some good information from someone inside the club and your trying to tell me its "pup" you dont even no what your talking about

its not hard for "most" to understand tom is set on staying at melbourne but his management has told him not resign "yet" to try and provide tom with the best contract possible.

if you have a problem with what i post, i wont bother seeing its from someone inside the club. no appreciation what so ever!!!

Take note of the difference between your first post and Keyser's last post.

That he may want to sign and get this over with but he is heeding the advice of his management - I have no problem with that premise

But to state as you did - that he wants to sign but his management won't let him is a nonsense. Dustin Martin signed early, Marc Murphy signed early. Managers answer to players not the other way around. Make no mistake that if Tom Scully wanted to sign right now it would be done.

As much as it kills me, I understand why his management is advising him to hold. It is easy for me to understand that he may want to sign, it is easy for me to understand what his management have told him and it is easy to understand that management are looking to get the best possible contract.

Unless I misread your post - you were trying to make it sound like Tom Scully had no say in the matter - I completely agree with Keyser in that he is "heeding the advice of his management" - after all, thats what you pay them for.

Vlad, step up mate & be seen to act on behalf of this Kid, in honour of Jill.

Not on behalf of Jill - on behalf of the kid.

We all have read exactly what she has done and have read what she has reportedly done as well. Does she know what she is doing ? Well she is doing it but can we not see that she is so in over her head that its not funny ?

I cannot get away from the fact that she is 17. This is not an excuse - it is an age where kids do stupid things. The maturity difference between 17 and 24 is ( well should be !) immense - let alone 47 ! There is a moral duty of care to this kid and to all children and make no mistake - she is a child - not to take advantage of her because she is star struck - blinded by the football celebrities.

I could drive a car at 13, I had a political opinion at 15 - but I couldnt legally drive or vote until I was 18. There are lots of things we can do at early ages - like give our bodies to footballers - but that doesnt mean we are emotionally ready to do it. Her behaviour is showing that she is ill equiped for the situation she has found herself in and she has found herself in this situation in no small measure thanks to footballers and a manager who should have acted towards her in a better manner.

I cant believe how naive some of you are. The moral high ground is out of contol everest style. The silence from the AFL is deafening. Lets sack Fev for being drunk NYE but say nothing about the sleaze bags playing around with a child (very clever one I might add)

Wake up and smell the roses people!

The role of the player manager is to get the best deal for their players as opposed to our perception of them - "holding the clubs to ransom". I listen to Liam Pickering who I find measured, not too big headed and does the best not to make himself more dislikeable than his profession already makes him.

Then you have Ricky Nixon who has craved the spotlight since day one has a highly inflated opinion of himself and has unwittingly ( because he is an F-wit) gone out of his way to be obnoxious.

I still havent forgiven him for the bake he gave us during the our search for our last coach. I cant quite remember who he was representing but we got down to the last three which included Bailey and Sheedy and maybe Connolly - and we had cut his candidate. He got on the radio and declared our process a sham and unprofessional and wanted us to stop the process and announce what everyone already knew - that Kevin Sheedy had the job. Right again Ricky !

He has done everything in his power to make himself disliked and I have little sympathy for anything that happens to him now.

He's not that good. I actually agree that the HBF role is too important to have a limited player such as Joel. Can't see him playing much footy beyond this year.

I'm a fan of Joel Mac - however I think this idea of him or anyone as a HBF is a moot point. I dont think there is any player that is any position these days. Everyone is set a task - we dont have a centreman or ruckrover or rover anymore - we have 6 players running through the midfield. We have Watts playing high up field and then out of the goal square. We have Davey behind the ball, on the ball and in front of the ball. We have Frawley minding the full forward ( Reiwoldt) one week and then playing in pocket against the small the next and Joel Mac is no different. He gets allocated what the FD considers suitable tasks. He has played full back, CHB, back pocket and HBF in equal measure - just depends who they play him on. I beleive they will use him in a backline shut down role and try to free up Grimes to be the play maker.

Come on guys, it's not that bloody hard.

Tom would be happy to sign now, if it weren't for the advice of his management that it's better to wait until the end of the season, to see how the tv deal plays out and how his value rises.

That's fair and sensible.

If I was in Tom's shoes, I'd wish I could know now what those outcomes would be, so I could fairly negotiate a deal in the next week.

But that's impossible, so it's... impossible.

And I very much doubt the kid will hold the club over a barrel and try to squeeze every last drop out.

He just wants a fair contract, like anyone else would. His performance in 2011 & the tv deal will determine what is "fair".

Nothing at all wrong with that.

Just try putting yourself in his shoes -- he's not an expert in these matters, he just plays football.

The smart thing to do is to defer to those who do have experience in these things.

This makes sense - deferring to his management - as long as someone doesnt try to sell me the pup as stated earlier, that he would sign now if he could but he cant because of his management. I would think that any footballer would like this sort of thing out the way but it makes perfect sense to defer to his managements' expertise. It just doesnt make us feel any better

Still don't quite understand the notion that a player can want to sign, but isn't allowed to by his own management. Makes absolutely zero sense, Tom must have agreed with his management's suggestion to wait until the end of the year to maximise his contract

That also makes me doubt the veracity of the claim. Tom is acting on the advice of his management. If he/his father wanted to sign today , like Marc Murphy, it would be done. This idea of a player wanting one thing but not being able to because manager another ( even though the manager will try to maximise his earnings by getting the biggest pay for his client) is an absolute nonsense. I would be very surprised (horrified, shocked, mortified) if any footballer aged 5 to 50 would sign a contract that would take the decision making ability out of their hands. Sorry - just don't buy it.

You have some terrible opinions on things.

I'm thinking Giantology can well fit ADC into their cap.

True, however when a contract goes up the expecations also go up at the same rate. While it was great for a couple of years that it got him some cash it effectively ruined his career because from that time onwards it was expected that he continued to perform at that level. History shows that for a number of reasons he couldn't, both at Melbourne and Collingwood.

The whole Woey saga was just incredibly sad, he should have finished his career at Melbourne and with hindsight the downhill slide started with that massive contract his manager won.

I suppose there's a point to this post...oh yeah, that's it. If Scully signs a $1m a year contract over 5 or 6 years, the pressure on him to immediately produce the goods at GWS will be absolute enormous, what Woey experienced will pale into insignificance in comparison. That would be a huge amount of pressure for a young player to deal with who is still developing.

This thread, i tell you what, it's like watching a train wreck; you know it's going to be bad but you just can't help yourself.

We are actually agreeing except the downslide did not start with the contract his manager won - his downslide started with him playing up to expection of the massive contract - whether that is fair or not is the question and has been debated endlessly here.

Judd signed the most massive of contracts - he is performing. Playing to expectations - thats the difference. But remember his first 2 months where he was unfit there was some unkind articles both on his performance and Carlton overpaying.

Subjective and retrospective

Fact - Woey signed a contract based on a Grand FInal year, Brownlow medal year, the new TV rights deal had just been inked (salaries going through the roof) and Freo trying to sign Woey and Farmer.

Not Woey's fault he became our highest paid player in 2001.

Not saying it was Woey's fault at all - all I am saying is that whether we overpaid or underpaid can be judged on the return we get and this can only be judged after the event.

Let me go way back in time - we got value out of Peter Moore and way overpaid for Kelvin Templeton - who knew at the time ?

As others have mentioned, beating Carlton or Collingwood, don`t care which one , hopefully both of `em. I`d also take a win at Kardinia Park!

Not sure if this was the last win there - but I was down at Geelong when Templeton had a day out ( one of the few)and we had a win - it was a never before experience so we didnt know how to react ! No one said a word on the drive back to Melbourne - we never had experienced coming home from the Cattery happy !

Touched on that in another post.

We will 'underpay' Frawley in a couple years time.

And as with most things in footy - it is up to subjective interpretation.

maybe ! what if he doesnt recover from the injury ? subjective subjective subjective - but I do think we are on the same page.

Correct .

If we do what we've always done , we'll get what we've always gotten .

We have only overpaid those that havent performed to the expected level and unfortunately that has been a few too many.

Davey also held out for more coin last contract but we havent complained about him as he has provided good value. We complained about Cam Bruce because we dont think he did give value for money. Subjective and requires crystal balls.

I think he meant - we don't want to pay over market the way we have for Woewodin and a few others.

Paying over market is such a subjective thing - based on how Woey plateau'ed we paid over the odds for his last contract - he never really improved from his brownlow year in fact he was less damaging probably due to the extra attention he received - but lets look at Greeny who also held out for a better deal on his last contract his first year into his new contract - fabulous and now he is captain and has really stepped up a gear.

Has Carlton overpaid for Judd ? - probably not on the basis of his first two years performance.

A crystal ball would a handy addition to my armoury

Bollocks.

wraps schmaps - I hadnt heard anything about any of our picks - I will say that the two youtube packages that excited me most was Howe - for his marking and what looked like X factor ( albeit in Tassie) and Davis - he looks very calm and assured in defense. I was making judgment calls on two minutes of youtube.

The whole Scully saga is so far based on unfounded rumour and some oil poured on the fire by media performers with vested interest, such as McGuire and Sheedy. Yet you are making the above statements as if they are facts and casting aspersions on Scully's motives. For all we know, Scully himself may be doing nothing of the sort. These sort of statements make Scully look like a mercenary when the opposite is most likely true.

(On the other hand, what's wrong with maximising your earnings? That's the whole reason the doomsayers are speculating he'll go to GWS.)

I like a person who takes a position !

give the man the cupie doll!!

My thought are you could sign a heads of agreement binding the player to the club thwarting all the vultures whilst allowing scope for the particular parties. Everyones happy ( that matters..i.e screw the other clubs!!)

If the reason for the contract delay as being reported is that the manager wants to see what unfolds at year end regarding new TV deals, etc etc as a manager why would you lock in before you knew what the outcome was.

Are you suggesting that if there is an XX% increase then Tom get XX more - very messy way of handling the situation. All negotiations are a gamble so I am also more than guessing that Velocity are also banking on him improving his rating and his value this year not going backwards ( a gamble - second year blues ?).

Signing a heads of agreement with all sorts of riders in it based on what the AFL might do is a messy way to go. I do know that contracts have all sorts of incentives - B&F placings, goals kicked, number of games..etc etc but to try and factor in the AFL unknowns is not pretty.

Geez take a cold shower fellers. He is a journeyman aka a good ordinary player. Plays well when we win & ordinary when we lose.

Fearless & tough but skills let him down under pressure - really just another run of the mill flanker.

Probably would have got the same value by putting games into Cheney.

I for one would have used the pick to try & get a smokey or picked Dylan Grimes.

Have to disagree with you.

I love to win and losses just arent acceptable.

I am never satisfied with losses but there are losses and then there are LOSSES.

Against the bulldogs I hated that loss - so close - they worked so hard. As much as it hurt there was still that voice in my head said - geez we really gave it a red hot go though.

Against the eagles - we didnt give a yelp - looked disinterested and half hearted..

When I take this down to a player level - MacDonald will make some poor decisions but in the main they are ok. He will turn the odd ball over - so do a few others - but he plays every game at the Bulldogs game commitment level not the Eagles game. Players have quiet days - MacDonald never has a game where he is quiet commitment wise.

If every player on our list played at his commitment level I doubt we would lose a game as their are so many others on our list who I can say are infinitely more talented but who I can also say dont show the same intensity..

Spoke to Troy after the AGM he has some health issues at the moment, so not injured as such.

He is seeing a specialist to sort out his best mode of treatment.

In a different post someone also mentioned illness.

One thing that I really don't understand in all of this, and this probably leads me to consider Sylvinator's post appropriating blame to Scully as being unreasonable, and that is, just how much control does a player manager have? Does he have to act on the player's instructions, or does the contract give the manager the power to make decisions regarding when to negotiate and when not to negotiate? Can management contracts muzzle players when it comes to commenting publicly on contract negotiations or quelling media/supporter speculation? I get the feeling that Scully is a pawn in a much bigger game, but I also get the feeling he will stay and that this is all about his manager getting him the best possible deal once the adjusted salary cap resulting from the TV Rights etc (is that right?) is a known factor.

I question sylvinator on the Scully wanted to sign but his management didnt - like all managers, lawyers , accountants etc they act on your behalf ( unless its illegal). That just doesnt hold water for me.

Here is a rhetorical question - more a rhetorical thought. It was reported in the velocity change of management article that they had/were going to speak to Tom and his father. How much influence does his father have ? His father is not at the club 5 days a week training and making friends with the other players. I know that the club does schmooze the immediate family but it is easier for a father to divorce himself from the emotion of a decision than it is for a player. My logic again tells me that it would be easier for a father to be more influenced by financial inducements rather than the young son who experiences the mateship of the almost full time career as a footballer mixing with your team-mates.

I'm not being mischevious ( and will cop a blast i am sure !) - just making sure this topic is talked to death.

Just got off the phone to an attendee of a bayside function that occurred this morning. Apparently there was some very positive chat in regard to retaining Tom. When Bailey was quizzed by the MC he responded that he was very confident in retaining Tom and that he would be in a dees jumper for the next 10 yrs.

My posts on this issue I think have, shown me to be sitting right in the middle - I have no idea on what he will do - I am confident that we have the people to sell the dream and hopefully put a great offer forward - will it be enough ? i dont know. But I am hoping and praying that he will stay and will be patient and wait for the outcome - I wont get hysterical.

What I will keep re-iterating is that chatter from BOTH sides means nothing.I would expect Bails to say nothing less. However this is the same Bails who said "Cameron Bruce is a professional and I expect to see him at training on Monday"

ahh love him! tough, courages good mark. adds alot to our backline and as someone pointed out. bruce pissing off could just be a good thing for him!

i cant believe people haven't brought up the infamous fev and joel mac talk last year at the MCG just as fev came and confessed to having so much debts and possible losing alot of his possesions. story goes as players were lining up into there positions before the bounce, fev was walking towards goal and saw his opponent would be joel. and this was what was mutted..

Brendan fevola: ahh looks like another new tv for me this year ( rubbing hands)

Joel Macdonald: atleast i got a house to put it on mate!

I missed hearing that story - hysterical - rates up there with the comeback to Glenn McGrath when he sledged a SA fast bowler who played and missed for the umpteenth time - "Why are you so fat " the reply came " because everytime I sleep with your wife she feeds me a chocolate biscuit"

Shaky start early last year (at one stage he put 3 out of bounds on the full from 5 kicks if I recall correctly) but has settled nicely. Love the way he plays.

I dont think he will ever be a carve you up or kill you with creativity and disposal type footballer. But his approach to the contest would have all the boys thinking - this is one guy we want to go to war with.

I guess the above is all pretty reasonable, and nothing earth-shattering really...

But there is something that just doesn't sit right with me about all this.

The kid is 19 years old, literally just started his dream of playing footy. If he thought about it long and hard, surely he'd come to the logical conclusion that he has at least 4 contracts and 13-15 years of earning potential ahead of him. If he signed today with Melbourne he'd get a really awesome contract, way above his market value (he really should not be earning more than Sylvia based on performances), and he'd be part of a team pushing for a premiership within 2-3 years.

I mean I understand that he's got to maximize his contract. But the way he's doing it is really cut-throat. He's leveraging the club to maximise his earning to the very last dollar. The way he's going about it is what I'd expect a 26 year old to do, knowing he's coming into his final seriously big contract. Scully's market value is huge at the moment. He'll get a massive long-term contract with Melbourne if he signs now. Waiting till August in order to maximise his earning potential by another few thousand dollars, at his age and experience, is just a little unsavoury for me.

Lastly, there have been many demons players who leveraged the club for huge contracts like Scully is now. They did it from their first contract, and every subsequent contract as well- fielding offers from rival clubs, forcing Melbourne to pay over the top to keep them. These guys, like Bruce, White and Yze really put the club to the sword to keep them, and i'd argue that were these guys more focused on team-success, we would have actually had a chance at a premiership in those years. The way Scully (his management) is going about it is just a little unsavoury, they are putting the club to the sword to pay overs for him, and it is the club who will suffer long term.

Geelong won 2 premierships for one main reason. They had 10 All Australians on their list, yet not one of them leveraged the club to pay top dollar for them. They put team success first. If guys like Scully, and then Grimes, Watts, Trengove, Jurrah etc, all prioritise getting top dollar, we will not be able to keep the best team possible and it will make us less likely to win a premiership.

Rant over.

This is the one aspect that really hasnt been touched on here. The concept of best for the club vs best for the player. I remember Geelong players two years ago and if memory serves me right, Essendon during their heyday taking paycuts to keep their squad together.

I am hoping that money is not the number one motivating factor and a compromise is available where both player and club are both happy.

I can report that ADC is now a correspondent for the newest AFL club supporter website GIANTOLOGY. See the site's first article - NO FELAFEL FOR TOM SCULLY

That's gold Jerry, gold !

And on sadder note - I never thought that ADC would go. Well, my only option now is to boo every time he posts on Giantology