binman

Never rated him. Do now.

As good as saying he's not interested in discussion? Perhaps I've missed it but the closest thing I've read from sb suggesting he doesn't 'see the point in anything other than unbridled optimism' is: 'I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.' Unbridled optimism is a long way from room for optimism. Misrepresenting people's comments, a pet hate of mine, is hardly conducive to creating a good discussion.

I've heard from a reliable source the real reason McAdam wanted out of the crows was so he never again had to wear that God awful yellow clash strip.

This is the biggest myth going around. Does my head in. Weren't people watching the finals? In nine finals there were only two games where a team kicked more than 100 points - the Lions shellacking of Port at the Gabba and the Giants getting on top of the saints and kicking 101 points. Come the finals every contender was basically playing a variation of the same game plan the dees employ. Arguably only the Lions game plan was noticeably different with their preference for hitting up short kicks and trying to keep the forward line open (and even then it had the same fundamentals). This is particularly true of the Pies, who once they lost their fitness advantage near the end of the season basically had almost exactly the same game plan as ours for the last third of the season - defence first, forward half, get territory, contested, intercept, turnover, super high pressure footy. In the grand final the Lions tried to negate that style by putting speed on the ball and the game was more open as a result - and resembled the game plan the Pies employed in the first half of the season. But the second half reverted to script and the Pies turned it into an arm wrestle and used the same game plan as the dees. Just look at the Pies scoring in the last third of the season. In the first third of the season everyone was seduced by their fast transition from the back half and their high octane offence. In their 3 finals they averaged a touch under 70 points per game.

I'll be the judge of that.

The JVR Curnow comparison at the same age: Player Statistics Comparison Jacob Van Rooyen Name Charlie Curnow Melbourne Demons Team Carlton Blues Forward Position Forward 20 Career Games 110 Claremont Origin Geelong Falcons April 16, 2003 Date of Birth February 3, 1997 20yr 6mth Age Turned 20 in 2017 193cm Height 192cm 91kg Weight 92kg 2021 National Draft Last Drafted In 2015 National Draft Round 1, Pick #19 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #12 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Carlton Blues 2023 Stats for Season 2017 20 Games 21 4.5 Kicks 9.9 4.2 Handballs 4.3 8.7 Disposals 14.1 3.1 Marks 5.7 1.4 Goals 0.9 0.5 Behinds 0.6 2.1 Tackles 2.9 3.7 Hitouts 0.3 1.2 Inside 50s 2.8 0.3 Goal Assists 0.6 0.9 Frees For 1.2 0.8 Frees Against 1.1 4.3 Contested Possessions 6.5 4.8 Uncontested Possessions 7.8 6.8 Effective Disposals 10.9 78.2% Disposal Efficiency % 77.3% 1.6 Clangers 2.2 0.9 Contested Marks 1.7 1.5 Marks Inside 50 1.2 0.3 Clearances 0.5 0 Rebound 50s 0.6 2.1 One Percenters 1.1 0 Bounces 0.1 74.0 Time On Ground % 82.7 0.1 Centre Clearances 0.1 0.2 Stoppage Clearances 0.4 4.0 Score Involvements 4.7 113.0 Metres Gained 249.1 1.5 Turnovers 3.1 0.5 Intercepts 2.2 1.1 Tackles Inside 50 0.7 50.9 AFL Fantasy Score 71.2 63.1 Supercoach Score 74.2

I find this tweet interesting in terms of it being fairly representative of what I see as JVR being underrated by many in the media, and even some DL posters. It's almost as if some have forgotten next season will be just his third at an AFL club and that he has only played one season at AFL level. One of the maxims of footy is key position players take time to develop. Perhaps JVR gets marked down becuase he is not that tall but his first season at AFL level was, by any historical measure, incredible for a key forward. The last two key forwards i can think of that had a similar impact so early were probably Charlie Curnow and Jesse Hogan. I'm no doubt forgetting some players but in my mind i have to go back to Johnathan Brown for a key forward that had the impact of JVR at the same age. Brown is actually a pretty good comparison. He was heavier but about the same height and like JVR wasn't a high draft pick. And JVR plays in a similar way - super competitive, wills himself to the contest, and uses his strength in marking contests. And their numbers when both 20 are pretty similar (by the by in this comparison it's worth noting the key difference is Brown averaged more mark per game. But all key forward would have taken more marks because there were no defensive zones being used and much more pure one on ones. More possessions too, which i think is reasonable knock on JVR's game. That said JVR clearly did more ruck work, which is impressive given he is 10kg lighter than Brown at the same age) Player Statistics Comparison Jacob Van Rooyen Name Jonathan Brown Melbourne Demons Team Brisbane Lions Forward Position Forward 20 Career Games 256 Claremont Origin Geelong Falcons April 16, 2003 Date of Birth October 29, 1981 20yr 6mth Age Turned 20 in 2001 193cm Height 194cm 91kg Weight 102kg 2021 National Draft Last Drafted In 1999 National Draft Round 1, Pick #19 Last Draft Position Round 2, Pick #30 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Brisbane Lions 2023 Stats for Season 2001 20 Games 25 4.5 Kicks 8.7 4.2 Handballs 5.2 8.7 Disposals 13.9 3.1 Marks 6.3 1.4 Goals 1.5 0.5 Behinds 0.9 2.1 Tackles 1.2 3.7 Hitouts 0.7 Brown went on to become a generational player. I'm not saying JVR will too but i am saying that in all likelihood, with another preseason - only his second full one - he will significantly improve next season. He will be stronger - and perhaps even more importantly fitter meaning he will be less prone to fading towards the end of the season as happened this year and will get to more contests which will mean more possessions. And he will get bigger too - broader across the shoulders and perhaps heavier. And that growth will continue until he he is 24-25 like it does for all bigs. He'll have way more impact next season and will continue to do so year on year until his mid twenties. Some might say beware the second year blues, but it's not his second year next season, its his third. A big tick for the way the club has handled his development. My point is that in terms of assessing our forward line the narrative and/or implication seems be that JVR will not offer anymore than he did this season and is not a player to build a forward line around. That may be prove to be true i guess but significant improvement is much more likely when you consider the trajectory of other gun key forwards. And if he does go up a level, a forward line with JVR and Petty as the two key forward matches up pretty well against any other team in the AFL, particularly given the role of the key forward now is almost more about ensuring the opposition don't intercept mark than kick goals. You only need to look at who scored goals during the finals for evidence of that. Looking at the 8 finalists, and the crows because they are on the up and the cats just because, the two key forwards for each team are: Pies: Miochek and Mcstay Lions: Daniher and Hipwood Blues: Curnow and Mckay Port: Marshall and Dixon Giants: Hogan and Riccardi (?) Swans: Amartey and Mcdonald Saints: King and Owens Crows: Walker and Fogerty Cats: Hawkins and Cameron Of that list i would argue only the Blues, Lions and Saints two keys will likely be better next season than JVR and Petty. But not miles better, particularly given come the high pressure, forward half, defensive footy being played in finals bigs struggle to get one on one marking opportunities or kick goals. By way of example of that latter point few would argue that Carlton don't have the two best tall forwards in McKay and Curnow. Noting that Mckay only played 2 finals, across the Blues' three finals they could only manage a combined 5 goals between them (Curnow 3, Mackay 2). To be fair De Koning kicked two in the dees game when he was basically replacing Mckay's role. So lets say 7 across three finals for their two key talls. Hardly earth shattering. By the by its worth remembering we didn't have JVR or Petty in the semi. Instead we had Tmac (at least i'm pretty sure i saw him) and Smith (!) as our two key talls. And we still should have won!

So much time....

How noble of them to abandon their pursuit of a contracted player at a rival club. What a stand up club.

Tracc, Clarry and Max were our three worst in terms of kicks inside 50 to score ratio. Not sure where Gus ranked but i doubt he set the work on fire in that area. Our best? Nibbla.

Agree. I'd add that a key difference between us and the two grand finalists is that both the Lions and Pies have goal kicking mids and utilities/half forward flankers. We don't. More than half the goals in the grand final were kicked by such players. On a perfect day for footy key tall forwards only contributed 4 of the 25 goals kicked (Daniher 3 and Mihocek 1). Hill and Cameron, both small crumbing forwards, kicked 7 between them, meaning the two forward lines (ie specialist forwards) combined only contributed 11 of the 25 goals kicked. Mids and utilities/half forward flankers contributed 14 of the 25 goals kicked: Collingwood: Hill 4, Crisp 2, De Goey 2, N.Daicos, Mihocek, Pendlebury, Sidebottom Brisbane: Cameron 3, Daniher 3, Bailey 2, McCarthy 2, McCluggage 2, Robertson Compare the above to our goals in the semi against the blues (also perfect conditions), where only two of our goals came from non forwards (compared to the Blues 5): Melbourne: Smith 3, Pickett 2, Fritsch 2, Langdon, Petracca Carlton: De Koning 2, Walsh 2, Motlop 2, Acres 2, Kennedy, Curnow, Owies We have a much, much greater need for goal kicking mids and utilities/half forward flankers (eg Bailey, McCarthy, McCluggage, Daicos etc) that can also reliably hit targets than we do for key forwards.

Early next year i think was the qualifier (ie as opposed to next season). I hope that proves to be correct

Forget us posters. How about the professionals whose full time job is to make list decisions that help us win a flag. It would appear these professionals have seemingly determined a key forward is not a major priority. Given the comparative expertise of your average DL poster and the recruiting team at the elite AFL level i think it is reasonable to put more weight in the latter's assessment of our current list needs. Ipso facto, i'm happy to go with trading in a key forward is not not a major priority. In other words she’ll be right.

Repeat after me. We. Do. Not. Have. Forward. Line. Issues. A forward line with Petty, Fritter, JVR, Koz, Nibbla and Chandler is easily as strong as the Pies forward line that netted them a flag: Mihocek, Elliott, Hill, McCreery, Ginivan and Frampton. Even if you swap Frampton for McStay, it is still no better than our lineup And that's not even factoring in that despite being completely written of by most fans both Tmac and BB could still offer something next year and Jefferson is still developing. Which is not to say a gun key forward wouldn't help, but for good reason it clearly isn't a major priority.

What would Taylor know?

Strange thing to 'big on'. If I was cornes I think I might be more focused on how port could improve their woeful defence.

Geez they are getting good centre clearance action.

Temp?

Go dees

Or perhaps don't ever bother to try and understand what the draft is or what it is trying to achieve and pass altogether.

What do these players all have in common? None finished in the top 10 of the bluey. Hold on that's not the case. Having finished 9th last season, Nibbla finished 6th this season.

Oh please - what is it with the 'email the club to express my frustration' palaver. You dont think they have better things to do than respond to fans critiques? Please. I encourage my fellow demonlanders to not contact the club to bag them out.

Seek treatment?