GOLF

Relying on Roos to sort Martin out has one big drawback:

Roos is here for 2 or at most 3 years. He will then be replaced by someone as yet unidentified. Will 2 (or 3) years under Roos be enough to remove all the traces of DH from Dusty? Or will the timebomb start ticking again the day Roos lays the clipboard aside?

OK then, what action can we take? Proposal:

Don't renew membership. When called by the club (maybe even by D2D) tell them you won't renew untill the club has clarified the association between the club and the [censored]. Then stick to it.

Alternative: state you don't give a damn and stop clogging up these threads.

Warwick Green's conclusion:

" it seemed extraordinary that in the very season it changed the system the AFL would choose to poke at an old wound by asking its integrity department to examine how Melbourne performed three years ago.

The AFL may have painted itself into a corner. Is it time to broaden the investigation?

You suspect the only way the AFL can extract itself is to say it thoroughly scrutinised the Demons and found no damning evidence. "

Once a Saint, always a Saint.

The most amazing aspect to me is that the AFL have something called an "integrity department". 1984 (the book, not the season) anybody?

Or Carlton's when the booked their senior players in for surgery in 2007 and lost the last 11 games so they could get Kruezer AND Judd?

If our coach had tanked in that R22 game we could well have had the priority pick instead of Carltom, and may even have got Kruezer ourselves. Remind me, who was our coach? And where was he for the 2008 season?

I agree. Why would we negotiate 2 first round picks? I say give Bailey 12 months, Connolly 6 months (because of his ill-advised comments), Schwab 2 months and maybe, just maybe, a first round pick (which hopefully won't be anywhere as low next year)!

Maybe make that any first round pick we have in the first 6. If we get a later 1st rounder than that we are obviously not tanking. And it would actually create incentive for us to finish 12th or higher and retain our 1st rounder.

I'm generally supportive of our trading/recruiting so far, although it is too early to really judge the outcome. Only one thing roooollly rankles.

Remember when we got pick 11 from Carlton for an apparently clapped out Brock, and used it to draft the Gysmeister? We were so sure that this was the greatest trading win in a decade, or maybe more. And now we have come to admit that we were right royally screwed.

Starting this because:

a) Can't see any other mention of him

B) He is a FA

c) There is still an hour and a quarter to go

d) I believe in equal opportunity

Don't have any particular comment to make, but.

I'm with you.... I only just realised today what they've managed. They're gonna be strong....

They may be strong if .....

Macintosh can stay on the park

Caddy lives up to potential

Rivers still has a couple of good years left.

None of these are guaranteed.

Whatever else has happened, MN has had a win here. A player who did not want to be at the club has been moved on.

I would trade it for Dawes but does anyone know the draft rules I think we have to use a minimum 3 picks in draft

No sweat. Even if we trade #20, we will use 4, 26 (Viney) and at least one 3rd rounder. Or instead of the third rounder, maybe something more tasty given to us for FA/RFA compensation.

ahhh -so now its Royals fault - but apparently Nathan Jones put his fingers in his ears when Royal spoke and went "nah nah nah not listening"

Now tell us what the rest of the midfield did. And whet the backline did in 2011.

GRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDYGRUNDY!

You don't get elite 202cm types as often as you get elite mids. Going for anything other than Grundy is avoiding the best player to fill a perceived need.

It is a great pity that GWS will certainly take him with one of their first 3 picks.

Do we really expect much development of Gysberts (or any other mid) with Royal as midfield coach?

We need another forward now. Clarke, Dawes and Howe sounds credible. Clarke, Howe and Watts or Cook does not. The only considerations here are:

a) does Neeld realize that Dawes is not capable of being a back up ruck as well as a forward?

B) will Dawes return tohis earlier form as a forward if played only as a forward?

c) how much would Dawes cost us?

No one has put up a better get-a-forward scenario. Gumbleton is perpetually injured, Butcher has off-field and on-field issues and we just ain't looking like getting Tippett. But pick 13 is too much and pick 26 probably too little. How about pick 13 for Dawes and the filth's first rounder?

Going back to basics, however, we must understand that Cloke is the key to all these houses of cards.

If Cloke stays at the filth, he will take up a lot of their cap. Some other very good players may be squeezed out (Wellingham, Goldsack, ...?). In this scenario, we have lots of money (Moloney, Green, Jurrah gone, lots of salaries already paid front loaded) and we should be very active in FA/RFA offers and trading.

If Cloke leaves the filth, he will either come to us or go to some other club.

If he goes to some other club then they will have a salary cap issue and may even have one or two players squeezed out. Much like the "stay at the filth" scenario, but different players available.

If he comes to us he will take up a lot of our spare cap money. We will have a 2nd top tall forward, but won't be able to be so active in FA/RFA or trade. Will need to rely on drafting and fringe trades.

So we should be looking at all three scenarions - different players, available by different mechanisms, under each scenario.

If I were managing a club's list .... And if I had one or more FA/RFA qualified players who I thought were currently overpaid on my list .....I might just encourage them to shop around in the Agency market and see what they can attract - if they are truly overpaid, they will be offered less than they are currently getting .... and I would then be in a strong position the match the offer and effect a reduction in their pay.

Just saying this to add a hitherto missing element of conspiracy theory to this thread.

So did Carlton get the best of this deal?

If the VFL consisted of 18 teams, 10 current Victorian based AFL Reserves teams, & 8 of the 1950's VFL clubs, I think it could be made to work.

In the 1950's the VFL was the main competition (12 teams, 6 games each Saturday in Melbourne) and each VFL team had Seniors, Reserves and under 19 sides. There are now only 10 left, now called the AFL. Thge minor competition was the VFA (Victorian Football Association) who played 16 a side (no wingers).

But I can see what you are calling for.

structure ??? agst the Dockers, we had two many half fwd flanks and half back flanks. Once Jamar went down and Martin into the ruck, our fwd line was all 6 footers (Green, Petterd, Sylvia, Howe, Bate). All one dimensional.

B: Nicholson, Frawley, Rivers

HB: Morton, Garland, T Mcd

c: Blease, Gysberts, Bail/Trengove

HF: Sylvia, Fitzpatrick, Howe

Fwd: Jetta, Martin, Green

Ruck: Spencer, J Mck, Jones

Int: Dunn, Tapscott, Bail/Trengove sub: Couch

emerg: Moloney, Sellar, Petterd

(put Trengove on the wing to start the game as "must" have the skipper on to start the match)

In: Morton, Gysberts, Tapscott, Jetta, Dunn, Spencer, Ftzpatrick.

Out: Grimes (inj), jamar (inj), Bennell (dropped/injured/bags packed), Strauss, Bate, Petterd, J Mcd

Bate is 193. Howe is 192. Six foot is 183.

Does he have any sons?

Of course we will keep the pencil. He's currently our no 3 real ruckman, and nos 1 and 2 are looking a bit injury prone.

Now all we need is a pencil sharpener.

D'accord.

The point to the names i have put up is that i just cant see any of these guys taking this club were it needs to be.

I would rate most these guys D+ players.

B. Green has been great for the MFC he is just getting old.

B. moloney does nothing but point at players were to be and cant get the ball himself.

N. jetta has had maybe 4 years to show what he has got i know his had a bad run but from what i have seen its not great. 7 touches a game is not great.

R. Bail i had high hopes for but after the game i just think his skills are not even VFL standerd.

M. Bate we could trade but when i watch this guy it's like he should have been a turtle he is way to slow for current AFL football.

J. Bennel is not AFL standerd simple as that 4 touches a game dont cut it in my book.

J. Spencer is the worst player i have seen in a MFC jumper. I watched him from the kick ins at the game and he does not even put his hands up to call for the ball at 204cm

J. Magner is a VFL player.

K. Lawrence has not even done anything to get a game in the worst MFC team i have seen.

M. Evans showed some good things but still is not worth a spot in the senior list.

L. Dunn well this guy has been good sometimes but his just not AFL standerd. 1 good game 3 bad games.

J. Fitzpatrick has had a bad run with health but i have seen him play at Casey and MFC well of the mark and just cant see it.

I hate to do this but after 6 years going every week to watch the team i love we just have to make some tuff calls.

Im sick of having a feeling of no hope and looking forward to the bloody draft.

We have gone no were in 6 years you can get all the stats you want. I go everyweek we suck fullstop.

GWS and GC aside we are still sitting on the bottom of the ladder put that in your stat book.

The good thing is we have a man called Mitch Clark.

We just need some A grade mids and we have a strong hand in the draft.

I will spew if the club does not get ready to go Mids.

No more bloody skinny 5 year projects

I just want to win and play finals thats all.

6 years and still waiting.

So you want to delist 12 players (or maybe 11 if you think we will get a trade for Bate). Just how deep into the draft do you want us to go? We get 3 first round picks, one 2nd round at about 24, plus one every 18 after that. 11 players dropped will require us to use pick 130 or thereabouts for our last selection.

Fortunately the club will not be as silly or reckless as you.

Spencer will be retained. We will go into 2013 with Jamar (aging, getting injuries), Gawn (suspect knees), Fitzpatrick (maybe, but has to put on some muscle), Martin (2nd ruck at best), Clark (short relief spell in ruck, we need him at FF) and Sellar (Joke, Joyce). What if Jamar goes down and Gawn is injured again at the same time (like now)? Unless you think we can trade a couple of what you call deadwood for a reasonable backup ruck, we have to retain Spencer.

What Magner needs is another full AFL preseason to improve strength, endurance and skills. Very foolish move to dump him before end 2013 at earliest. He was good at the start of this season, but has tired. Make him fitter and stronger and see if he can keep it up for 22 rounds.

If you want to drop Moloney you obviously think the Bluey is won by a fluke. Class is permanent, form is temporary. Get a better midfield coach would be a more sensible suggestion. And maybe bring him back into the leadership group.

Bennell would be a much better player if the others didn't think he was 203 cm tall, and kicked it too him instead of over his head. Worth one more year at least.

Your comments that Spencer is the worst player you have seen in a Dees jumper, and that this is the worst side you have ever seen only go to show how young and inexperienced you are. Never saw David Cordner? Never saw Brent Grgic? Never sat in the old Northern stand in the 70s? Then you have never seen bad.

If you want to continue with your ridiculous Red Queen posts, try adding an explaination of how we will replace the 12. By trading, by rookie promotion, by recruiting free agents or by drafting.

There is another thread on this board (or maybe more) wanting us to delist 6, or 8, or 9, or more players. If we do, we will have to use all our picks to replace them. So only look at one pick for one player (or two for one player plus a reasonable pick as Old 55 suggests) or we will be using pick numbered in 3 digits and getting rubbish to fill our numbers.

Do we want a massive clean out of our current list this year? Do we think there is any great trade value in the cleanout candidates? Do we think MFC is irresistably attractive for other clubs semi/full free agents?

Reason says look for one good trade (I'm OK with Boak for a first rounder), get Viney with whatever it takes, and use remaining first and second rounders wisely.

We currently have good forwards and backs (when all fit) and adequate rucks if Gawn isn't. Boak and Viney would be two good additions to the mids. We should be able to get two more gooduns for whatever position with our remaining first and second rounder. Get a grip on your enthusiasm and calmly work out what we need there before thinking we can trade for stars with our rubbish.

Moloney, Davey and Joel MacDonald all must go.

My delists would be:

Bartram

Bate

Bennell

Morton

Spencer

Jetta

Petterd

Davey

Green

MacDonald

Moloney

Sylvia and Stef Martin on the trade-table

Jordie McKenzie is on extremely thin ice as well. His kicking is below VAFA standard and he can't run out of sight. Seems to never do a pre-season so I'm willing to give him another chance off a full pre-season, but needs to develop quickly because at this stage he is just an ok tagger and exceptional turnover merchant. We could get one of our other turnover merchants like Grimes or Bail to easily play this roll.

Anyone who argues these players are any good and should be kept...have a look at where we have been on the ladder for 5 years.

That's 11 draft picks required. Just what sort of quality do you expect to get around pick 120?

Bate, Dunn, Spencer, Bennell, Jetta, Petterd, Green gone on the first pass, and that's just those that aren't contracted. Would happily scotch Bail at this point too, though there's more to work with there IMO.

Three weeks ago I had Joel Macdonald in there too, but the Garland-Rivers movement changes the balance back there. He was filling in until Tom McDonald got up to scratch last year but Garland's exit puts him higher in the pecking order; now he's filling in until Troy Davis gets up to scratch.

Even you Nasher are going a long way into the draft. Our fifth pick will be around 42-44. If you get rid of two more, plus possibly Bail, you will have us going out to 79 or 97. Not much star quality comes from picks like that.

Best to delist 5, 6 at most, promote some rookies and look for new rookies.