DeeSpencer

It's both the for and against in the one argument. The last line is particularly telling - he is not a genuine AFL player yet in the eyes of Roos. So people who keep pumping him up can you please understand that. Roos will determine based upon the skills and intent he sees from Watts what position will best suit him. I for one certainly don't think it will be as a contested marking key forward. It's much more likely to be as a ball user between the arcs or on a wing. Then Roos will take the time to teach him the skills needed for that position and I believe will finally do what no MFC coach has been gutsy enough to do with Watts and will give him an extended period in the reserves if that dictates or will give him an extended period in one position even if he's been beaten a lot of time. That's what we are getting from Roos, a guy who is stubborn and has the runs on the board and wont be undermined by the media or perception. As for the debut can we all get over the aspect that he wasn't ready from a footballing perspective. He was extremely talented, our side sucked, he played decent VFL. He was well and truly due to come in to the team at some stage. It was the marketing campaign and external pressure that was the problem, not any Collingwood defenders bumping him around. Kevin Sheedy has debuted younger players on big occassions plenty of times, but he sets them up for it and doesn't pump the entire game around them and then he also protects them in the aftermath if things don't go so well.

Whilst I'd love to keep him if a proper position was available I think it's best we let Roos determine what positions he needs along with the GMFO and therefore it's probably not a spot for Craig. Potentially we could save on the payment regardless by making his job (elite performance or whatever it was) redundant.

Frawley, Garland, McDonald, Terlich, Nath Jones, Viney, Grimes, Gawn, Kent, Hogan, Clark, Dawes, Fitzpatrick, McDonaldIt's a start. It's a collection of guys who will put their bodies on the line and as far as I can tell have some form of talent and work rate. Now the list is crud and it's hard work finding 22 to pick each week who are near capable of winning yet alone will fight for 120 minutes. But there's enough for a new coming coach to deal with. Of course a new coach shouldn't be seen as a messiah but we shouldn't be looking for a miracle. It shouldn't be that hard of we are smart and patient to get back to respectability. I'd take 5 wins next year and 8 the year after. We shouldn't need a miracle

do we actually know that? Or is it some don't and a bunch of hippies and anti capitalism folks have joined in.And why haven't they recruited Rory Sloane as their public face!

Well he played a hell of a lot more games than Toumpas, who is his first year and I damn well hope by the time he's in his 5th year is way better than Watts. He might also get above Kent because he played some ok games, he had a real purple patch against Coll and StKilda in the middle of the year. But where Watts will finish in this years B+F is irrelevant. It's how he helps the team and in more games than not this year he's provided nothing. His game against the Kangaroos was a disgrace to name 1.

Are you suggesting we put one of the worst performed and lazier players of the second half of 2013 on the banner? I'd much rather have McKenzie who stands for exactly what we need under Roos - hard and tough work. McKenzie completely shut down Ablett and Griffen in the second half of this season after he returned from injury. Howe on the other hand was barely even taking hangas until the weekend that's how (excuse the pun) far off good form he was.

It hurt us because we over valued it and didn't put any resources into drafting and player development. But for everyone else it's been a great way to lift clubs off the bottom and move them up the ladder. Of course GWS and Gold Coast -- who both got the equivalent of 5 or more PP's have changed things massively but I'm not sure I can think of a year where so little change has happened on the ladder. Sure Port jumped up but if they get bailed out after 1 match it wont count for much. West Coast took a tumble which isn't too surprising given the age of their list and how bad their injuries were, Adelaide the classic case of a young side over achieving one year the under achieving the next but really not a lot else happened. Gold Coast were predictably better. Brisbane the same. St Kilda fell lower and the dogs improved but in the scheme of successful rebuilding of the past they didn't exactly do anything amazing. Richmond are entering finals this year on the back of some really clever trading and drafting, with some nice young talls maturing and some decent flankers and midfielders. But the main strength of their side comes from their top draft picks in Cotchin, Martin and Deledio. They are the 3 if you shut down for a match and the rest of your side is half decent you've gone a long way to beating them. Imagine if instead of Tambling they took Franklin when they got their Priority Pick. Well you'd probably have them top 4 and a real force. That's the benefit of the priority pick, it means the bad teams get better faster and when they are better they are actually very good - see Hawthorn, StKilda, Bulldogs and Collingwood.

What land? Aren't you just using the ends to justify the means. Personally I'd say Roos had no desire to coach before the jobs started calling him. When he was on 300k+ to coach the swans academy and a healthy deal with Fox he didn't need the money. And Healy would've had to have a serious guarantee from Roos before he launched into this rear action that has cost us a huge pay out to the CEO and coach and board turmoil. If it was the case you'd have to ask why he wouldn't stop Schwab's reappointment, why they couldn't find any decent candidate to run a board challenge and then why we couldn't have waited to until the end of the year to sack Neeld who might just have had a much better season behind a freshened board and CEO, with possible a restructured footy department before this year. If we get Roos, to go with an impressive Peter Jackson and a new president with AFL support it will all be a nice result. But think of the pain we've suffered to get here. No doubt even with AFL support we will also dip into debt in the next 12 months as well. I really wish some of these so called experts had predicted these circumstances, no re hired Schwab and avoided a huge payout, got a better more focused board in place and head of football that was experienced and helped Neeld. That way even if he did fail which seemed inevitable we would be in a much better condition now.

Obviously you mean Jack Riewoldt because Nick was as star from day 1. Hawkins was a mile off physically and as such struggled, but I don't see why Watts should be. Looking at him he's around 90kg and should be playing to those strengths already. I don't expect him to be playing as a true key forward because he doesn't have the body for it yet and I don't think he ever will. I've got no problem with what he does with the ball. I actually use to love watching Trav Johnstone lope around at half speed before delivering a lace out pass and the same for guys like Dal Santo or Pendlebury who have that vision and skill that make them look like they are playing a different game to everyone else. It's Watts' work rate to win the ball or win the ball back that is a mile off and hasn't improved whatever position he's been trialled in. I believe he's been lucky to escape most major injuries and to have decent preseasons. So why hasn't he developed the work rate to succeed. He's been on the list for 5 years now. That's 2 years more than Tom McDonald who will run all day at CHB and much longer than Toumpas and Kent who both came in under done and you can't say that Watts was head and shoulders above those 2 on output.

How can you say he's developing nicely if he hasn't laid a tackle, put his body on the line or chased hard since he's come to the club. Dean Kent developed nicely as a flanker this year. Watts wasted another year shuffling between positions because he either can't or refuses to play physical football.

FB: Clisby Frawley Garland HB: Terlich McDonald Grimes C: Toumpas Jones Evans HF: Sylvia Dawes Howe FF: Hogan Clark Byrnes Foll: Gawn Viney McKenzie Int: Kent Trengove Watts ****** Obviously the ones Roos named in his article are the main stays. I think Terlich with a preseason of defensive coaching will improve. He does stick to an opponent and play well up the ground, it's just deep under pressure that he struggles. And his kicking was good early in the year, people made too much of one error when he was getting it 25 times with no one to kick to. Clisby is another who might just be a Roos special with the way he runs aggressively and is a decent defender. If Roos is smart he will go for smarter footballers who need more work like Clisby over dumb ones. Up forward I think the 3 big guys pick themselves and I think Clark will start as the back up ruck if healthy. Roos has no aversion to a lot of talls but unless he hits the mature age market hard he'll know he needs guys who can rotate into the midfield to make up the run. That's why Sylvia and Byrnes are named forward and Clark is the second ruck. I'm hoping Gawn has a huge off season and stands out as the number 1 ruck, his competitiveness should come through. The midfield is a big question mark. Again it's futile to predict which if any mature players we can attract. Barring that I have faith in Toumpas, Evans, Kent and Trengove. If Evans gets a fit AFL body he can mix it at the level and is a competitor. Trenners of course gets in. And I really like how Kent got better as the season went on, that's a really good sign. Toumpas might not be an ideal round 1 Roos player but if he comes on after a preseason he will continue to be our best kick of the footy. Watts is the biggest question mark at all. Personally I'm not putting him in a forward 50 when I've got Hogan, Dawes and Clark available. That's 3 guys who will either take contested marks or halve contests all day long and chase and pressure when the ball does hit the deck. I'm looking for a position that uses Watts speed, skills and visions. So be that half back, wing or half forward up the ground I'm not sure. The first thing I'd do if I was Paul Roos would be to have a huge heart to heart open chat with Watts and if he wanted out I'd explain if the deal is right he can go. If he wanted in then I'd explain his skills and weaknesses and just what I'd do about them.

Coach first I would think. Although we could trim a few spuds first without any trouble - ie. Gillies. The other thing is when your VFL team is still alive it's nice to not announce delistings. Their is no real benefit in doing it early.

Depends, but probably yes is the answer. For any other club in the league besides us and GWS you aren't really expected to play in your first 2 years. Especially when he missed the majority of the first year. He's also played some good games in the VFL, although consistency has been a big problem. I'd still say Taggert is at the stage where you'd have to be convinced he doesn't have a lot of improvement left. Especially when there are plenty ahead of him who have had all those changes - Jetta, Nicholson etc.

Mark Cisco 207cm/115kg 17/7/91 Columbia Uni, USA Ruckman Potential ruckman from Columbia University with a basketball and NFL football background. Imposing athlete with a great appetite for the competition. Has a natural leap (standing vertical jump - 70cm, running vertical jump - 85cm). Has a double degree in political science and psychology. Jason Holmes 203cm 28/10/89 Kentucky, USA Ruckman Potential key position player/ruckman from Moreland State University in Kentucky with a multiple sports background in basketball, soccer, NFL football, baseball and golf. Was introduced to Australian football at the USA Combine in April, 2013, where is vertical jump scores (standing vertical jump - 78cm, running vertical jump - 91cm) were impressive. Left footer who looked very natural with the ball by hand and foot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGD-ZCGNU4 Jamar isn't really in the long (or short) term picture so the future of our ruck division may well be Gawn with Spencer as a serviceable back up if Gawn gets injured on losing form. So it's certainly time to think about getting another guy in one of the drafts this year to eventually replace Spencer if he develops well. Roos has been putting a few through the works up in Sydney. I like the sound of this Cisco bloke, he's a genuinely big unit and has the smarts to record Roos on TV and put it on youtube. Nothing beats a bit of self promotion. Anyway with Roos having the inside knowledge I wouldn't be surprised to see one of these guys come on to our list as a rookie.

Whenever I've seen him play he's looked like he's got poor skills, doesn't win much ball and isn't a great defender. So I can't see him having a future off half back. Can he re-emerge as a midfielder? I'm not sure but I wouldn't be queuing up to see.

He doesn't have the speed to match Watts on a powerful hard lead. Which is how he got 3 goals. The other came from a rubbish free kick. It was certainly an open match without much pressure. Morris still shut him down and stopped him touching it for most of the game.

Guys we have a contract thread to check out before you comment on those contracted. Unfortunately it includes a lot of guys I don't want on the list. And also remember Hogan will come onto the list. So: Retirements: Rodan, Davey, Macdonald Delistings: - Sellar - no need for another depth tall when we have Pedersen - Gillies - see above - Davis - see above - Jetta - just hasn't showed enough - Tynan - not coming on quick enough, poor skills - Nicholson - skills and vision aren't up to it - Couch ® - slow, small, poor skills - Magner ® - see Magner Possibly Stark ® - injured all year and not great when he isn't Trades if we can get anything - Blease - Struass - Bail - Tapscott In terms of main list its 9 changes plus maybe more with trades. Hogan will come on and then we'd need to find 8 more: 5 draft, 1 PSD, possible rookie upgrade for Clisby, 1 PSD/FA, possibly traded players in for a player for player trade. So that's how it's looking.

Just like the morrish medal winner (Best TAC player) often doesn't end up very good in the AFL. Of course mitigating circumstances - the medal winner is often overlooked for rep teams but the point remains.

Bendigo Gold stiff you'd have to say.

His wife and eldest son are going away to Bhutan (sp?) and will come back and have a decision for him on families perspective ie: convenient excuse to not say too much. He thinks the B+F was about this season and therefore it's not appropriate for him to be there - although he didn't quite say that, he said more he said it in a way that if he rocked up to the B+F he wouldn't look stupid. Very tactful but also very comfortable. Not a man hiding something, more a man just confident in his decision making and process.

He started as pretty much all round soft. Then he developed courage in the air with his marks but still liked to very much take a big chest mark and protect his ribs. Certainly never saw him attacking the ball on the ground like a Jack Viney does now or a Nathan Jones. He went from a bit of a soft crafy forward pocket to a decent outside wingman to a full forward who hit the ball hard on a lead but didn't really do a lot else hard or otherwise. Certainly wasn't an ideal career progression for a guy with lovely skills, good reading on the play and strong hands for a guy of his size. Like Bruce he was never developed properly to maximise his strengths and minimise his weaknesses

You know most of the photos are of dogs players! But come on YD surely Cam Pedersen deserves a beer and a pie. Or Sam Blease he's worked hard all year. Jeremy Howe must be mentally spent after all the hangas. And hasn't Jack Watts earnt a day playing dress ups after all his second efforts this year?

Well let's not worry too much about Daniher. Dunn was only under him for his first 2.5 years and you aren't tipping out a first rounder at that stage unless he is truly rubbish (Lucas Cook). So Bailey takes over in 2008 and Dunn has played 3 years and I'm not sure or don't care how many games. So he plays him as a forward because he's at the age where he should be starting to contribute regularly in a young side. That doesn't work so he tags a bit, that doesn't work so he makes him into a defensive forward and he shows a bit of promise in 2010 so he gets another 2 year deal because there really isn't much on our list to pressure him and he's still relatively young. 2011 comes under Bailey and again he's in and out of the team and not that great but by now he's one of the better athletes and we are an up and down team so guys will get games. 2012 comes and he's got his contract and Neeld plays him a little then drops him and tries him as a defender to save his career. He looks ok finally starting to attack the play a bit and gets some possessions and Neeld, the master of contracts for everyone no matter how crud you are gives him another 2 year deal! He starts this year a bit shaky in one of the worst teams of modern time and then comfortably sees the season out because let's be honest how many mid sized defenders or defenders at all are pushing for his spot at Casey - none. And now he's contracted again for next year, where following a trend he'll probably play a rubbish first half but do enough in the last 8 rounds to earn another contract. So the moral of the story is he's always been young enough and worth a shot at a new position to get games. That's how he's spent most of his career averaging that 14 matches a year you put out. He's played his career to date in a horribly weak team with a horribly weak list and been young enough and worth reinventing that they've kept him. But it will do my head in if he gets another two year deal ever again. Also I really with we kept Petterd and moved him to half back. Sure he can turn it over at times but he attacks the ball 110%, isn't afraid to tackle and runs and finds the footy. He's twice the footballer Dunn is.

He only got 7 touches yesterday FFS!!! How did he do 10 great things! At best Watts did 4 good things yesterday, he led up and made the most of shots for goal. The one great thing he did was leading very hard after he dropped a mark in the middle of the ground and then getting on the end of a piece of play. Besides that he did nothing of not at all. He played on Mark Austin who is completely VFL and Dale Morris who just doesn't have the speed for him on the lead. I don't think he'd get a similar match up that works for him against any other side than the dogs. I don't see how he's improved at all since 2011. Still doesn't tackle, still doesn't win contested ball, still doesn't fly for the ball in the air whilst putting his body on the line.

I think Tony meant play a 5 man defense and 7 man forward line. Considering we had the one on one defenders capable of neutralizing the dogs forwards and our forward line struggles anyway it might not be the worst idea. Then again a bulldog midfield on fire and even more space for their forwards is not a great thing.