Dr. Gonzo

It also leads to standards slipping when players get games on reputation instead of performance.

It's pretty obvious that players in form being dropped or in good form at Casey and not getting selected can lead to cultural issues.

I didn't say any of those things but it's interesting you did. Sometimes there are mitigating circumstances for performance, in 2025 we have a healthy list, experienced players who should be in the prime of their careers and a coach who has been with the club for a decade so has been able to embed his leadership style and build the team the way he wants. The players no longer seem to be responding to his message, that doesn't mean the players are at fault, it doesn't necessarily mean the coa h is at fault or that the message is even wrong. It may just be stale and time for fresh voices. That includes Richo, Chaplin, Griffiths et al who have all been around a while now.

You asked how lack of selection integrity could impact culture and then didn't like the answer you were given. Culture is not just about player happiness and retention, it's also about success. Lack of selection integrity is the start of standards slipping, accountability etc Culture is the driver of performance, we can have players happy to be at the club, happy to be on the list, mates with the coach and feeling supported and failing to push themselves and performing like rubbish on gameday. Would you consider that a good culture?

Does that take into account our last couple of losses? I went back and checked but may have miscounted. We finished 11-12 after starting 6-2 last year so went 5-10 to end the year. We are 5-10 this year so yep 10-20 you're right, I must have miscounted.

Culture is not just about player retention it's also about performance, success and player morale. Player morale may lead to player retention but when you have a lack of selection integrity it creates rifts between the playing group. A guy like TMac getting dropped while in good form can impact the overall culture of the group while having nothing to do with individual decisions of players to sign with the club (which often comes down to finances, relationships, personal circumstances etc before culture).

It's not one game though, it's consistently poor performances and a downward trend. 5 losses to start the season isn't one game, the way we finished the 2nd half of last year isn't one game. Losing to Saints, Port and Suns in the fashion we did in the last month isn't one game.

It's unbelievable right? May, Lever, Turner vs Thilthorpe, Walker, Fogarty 😬

So JVR and Jeffo up forward with Melksham and Fritsch with JVR rucking again. Do the same thing expect the same result. If I was JVR I'd be seeking a trade this offseason, Goodwin is destroying his development.

We are 5-17 from our last 22 games (9-22 from our last 31). This isn't reactionary, this is a clear trend.

Agree and although a lot of it falls on our mids and their disposal I think the real issue is our forward setup and structure (ie leading patterns etc). Open forward lines with good movement and forwards that lead make midfielders look they have elite disposal. A large part of our issues come back to coaching.

I just read that article now (I didn't link it it was in the post I quoted). TBH I can't make out exactly what it tells us about our ball movement. We are first in the league for speed (123) we are putting distance on the ball when we dispose of it (113 which is above the 100 standard but only around average vs the rest of the league in the middle 6 teams) but we are in the bottom 6 teams as far as the Distance to Goal measure is concerned (100). So we are the quickest at disposing of the ball when we get it, we are getting plenty of distance on the ball but we are in the bottom third of teams as far as moving it direct to goal. That doesn't feel like it translates to what I see watching us play but will keep it in mind when watching this Sunday and next week live at the G. I also don't really know what it tells us about how we are trying to move the ball as it doesn't feel like we're switching play at speed either. Id be interested in our ratings in specific games, how did we rate in the Freo, Lions, Swans and Pies games vs the Port, Suns (X2) Bombers games - and not just as an overall score but broken down into the three metrics. I guess the numbers could say that we throw the ball around like a hot potato before ultimately kicking forward but again doesn't feel like that translates to what we see week to week.

The players are not blameless, they cop it plenty especially if you dare venture into any gameday thread. BUT they are also playing to instructions (or presumably they are) and ultimately it is easier to change one coach than change 20 or 30 players.

Agree, which comes back to coaching.

It's the whole setup, our forwards set up way too high so they can race back to goal trying to get kicks out the back. It doesn't work. They need to be leading up to the ball carrier. They need to spread, they need to lead, movement is a forwards best friend, ours are stagnant. Kicks to stagnant forwards are a defenders best friend. And that's just looking at the forward structure, never mind selection such as JVR having his development destroyed by being forced to second ruck and having no real support when he does play forward. We bought in another ruck and refuse to play him, get Campbell to play 2nd ruck, be a big body up forward and let JVR settle in a key forward role for the rest of the season. TMac was playing well in defense and then dropped. Petty is persisted with up forward despite being garbage. Turner can mark and kick and is wasted in defense. Windsor had a great debut on the wing yet we shift him to half back. Etc etc etc

I take what Champion Data say with a grain of salt. There is value in data and stats but it can't be looked at in isolation and it's never the entire story. Quick ball movement in and of itself is pointless, Collingwood are one of the slowest ball movement teams, right? Yet they sit clear top of the ladder. If a teams first instinct is to get the ball to boot and hoof it forward they will look exceptional by a "ball movement" metric. But if you are not retaining possession, are not hitting up leads, are not kicking it to the advantage of your forwards and ultimately not kicking goals the stat is useless. I bemoan our inaccuracy as much as anyone but it's not the whole story. Yes we miss sitters that make you tear your hair out but we are not alone. Watch any game you'll see teams missing simple shots, Ben King missed two in the first quarter alone last week. I just think holding onto this ball movement measure as some kind of sign that we're heading in the right direction or that Goodwin is doing anything that is that much different to previous years is foolhardy. The ball movement we saw against Freo with overlap handpass was good, the rebound off half back and taking the game on through the corridor against the Lions was good. Other than that it's been more long down the line, go down the wings kind of stuff. The purpose of quick ball movement is to catch the opposition wrong footed when you are rebounding off half back and to deliver the footy into space in the forward line so forwards can mark the footy in good positions, preferably within 30m of goal. We sometimes mark the footy in good positions (angle wise) but rarely close enough to goal to make it an absolute gimme. It feels like we're in a bad place at the moment. A fresh voice may give us an opportunity to reset. Goodwin seems incapable of getting this list challenging again and he won't survive a rebuild. He's been at the club now for over 10 years, that's a long time for anyone. It's time for a fresh start, the players need it and the supporters need it.

We really aren't.

Id like to understand more about the ball movement measure. Of course we're going to be one of the quickest ball movement teams if we are just slamming the ball on the boot and kicking it as far forward as we can without trying to retain possession, hit up a target etc. It is related to our poor inside 50s, we just slam the ball on the boot and kick it on top of players heads or to packs. Perhaps we should be more considered with our ball movement and focus on retaining possession, kicking to teammates advantage and being in the best position to score goals instead of just moving it forward as quick as we can at all costs. Being quick at ball movement doesn't mean we are a quick team, or even a good team.

Are we talking about two separate incidents? In talking about the one where Viney got a free kick for holding the ball, his head absolutely slammed the ground.

I'm stunned that Viney wasn't cited to be honest, just shows again the inconsistency/ineptitude of the MRO.

We were outscored 9.4 to 7.6 across quarters 2 and 3. Game was done at 3/4 time, pointing to a 5 goal to 1 final term when the heat was out of the game is no solace for the disastrous first 3/4's.

So thats where we are falling down! Relying on a guy who had 1 kick in the 2nd quarter and 0 in the 3rd to be our connector 😉

He definitely will be, slung Rowell whose head slammed the ground.

Improves considerably? We were down by almost 50 points at 3/4 time