Dappa Dan

Gee whiz did anyone listen to SEN just now, replaying the Lyle-Radar interview from a few days ago? Powerful stuff. Well done Andy.

True, but surely that has more to do with the outrageously great year that year was, as opposed to how weak subsequent years were. We may never see a better draft than 2001. I have a feeling the high rating may have been because of the KP players available. We all know how the Roughie/Buddy draft worked out for Hawks when they had a go at the only good KP forwards in that period. I'm right into this. As usual in drafting the USA leagues learn all the lessons and we should benefit. For about 5 years (maybe longer in certain circles) the draft has taken on less importance as people look at the NBA and particularly the NFL systems. The draft age is the culprit. NBA get their guys slightly younger than the NFL. NFL you have to have gone through College and most players are taken at 21 when they're more-or-less known entities. As a result of the "sure things" the price of a first rounder has gotten massive. In the most famous case, the Redskins traded their first rounder and the next TWO first rounders (and a second) to move up just 4 selections. And the player they took was delisted within a few seasons. As a consequence of these examples set by leagues with even more pressure on the list managers than the AFL, draft capital has dropped in value. That's why I've been all for us going for guys like Melks and Hibberd with second rounders. They might not have been superstars at the time, but they were known entities that you wouldn't need to put 3-5 years into to find out what they had, like we have with guys like Weideman. Or ten years like Watts. Add to that we have Taylor who turns second and third rounders into key players, and you have yourself a great situation to trade away picks aggressively.

I dunno... I really don't think there's that much between him and Wentz. As I've said before, he's even better than Wentz at certain things... And Wentz will be top 2 in this you'd think.

I thought it was good credit. He is a gun.

Wow. Goff into the 30s in NFL top 100 @Gorgoroth

Ah I see. I think we're clashing on definitions here. To me Jack Watts is a 200+ game player, but a draft bust. According to the yanks though, you have to be an absolute disaster of a footballer to be termed that, so I can see the confusion there. Yeah, again, all about opinions. I'm not comparing those players directly to Billings. Some aren't even similar to him in any way, like AVB for example. My only point is the list management one. If we decided half those names weren't up to it at AFL level, then yeah, Billings becomes a target. But it's clear Goody loves a lot of those names and wants them in his side. For what it's worth I want to see all of them at MFC next year, including Garlett and AVB. No you can't guarantee. Unless you're working for MFC? In which case, for gods sake get off this board. lol What you can do is attempt a prediction. I don't agree with it though, which I reckon is all we're doing here. If the Saints get rid of him and it's not for a first rounder, then I'll come back and see I was right. 70 games for a pick 3, then traded out for a second rounder is a bust in my book. You're welcome to assure me. I'm going to assure you though, that we won't take him if we still have our current crop of small forwards. The whole thing is a bit of a yawn for me really. I mean... After yesterday it's clear we have a need for speed and skill through the midfield. Shiel-type/Gaff-type players. Mostly though we need a graders. We were shown up badly by some big name mids, and Billinsg doesn't solve that. Just more of the same.

What the hell are you talking about. Wingard's played multiple super seasons, dual all-australian under 25. Stupid comparison. He's a star out of form (til the weekend) and being played out of position. How does he compare? Billings kicked 5 goals in a game and everyone got on board last year, but he wasn't the second coming of Gary Ablett jr was he. He's massively over-rated and is currently a big draft bust. He's played 70 games and you can count on one hand the ones he affected the result like the star he was drafted to be. Lynch was a first rounder, 3 years into his career he hadn't done much and went for a second rounder. And he was a KP forward... a rarer commodity than a 183cm mid. You can rate him as high as you want, but you're delusional if you think he's worth a first rounder. First rounders only go to players who've put together whole seasons. And yes, I did watch Billings last year. If that was supposed to be his breakout year, then I call it a draft bust. Bont was taken a pick after, and has left Billings in his wake. The Braysh comparison is at least closer to the mark. The injury side of things is where they differ. I'm not suggesting Tyson as a straight swap. I do reckon the Saints would love a player like him though, and he's viewed by many (not me) as surplus. Tyson plus overs would make sense. As I said in previous post, we're "swimming" in small forwards. Jeffy can't even get a game. He kicked 40+ last year. Hannan, ANB, Melksham, Harmes, Tracca, Spargo, Kent, AVB, Balic, Fritsch, Bugg.... all are serious players who've played serious minutes. Many are champing at the bit to get a game. Billings probably offers slightly more than a few of those names, but giving up a first rounder for a player in an area we're already strong is just dumb list management. In other words, Billings' value is what he gets in a trade. Right now there isn't a club who'd give up a first rounder for him.

lol @ poll results. He's been a great get. Did everything he could on the day. Gee some people are hard to please.

Define "selling him short?" I know he was setting the AFL world on fire last year. I'm not saying we shouldn't be interested. It's only a question of price. He's not worth an early-mid second rounder. With a player who's draft value is almost entirely potential-based, you shouldn't give up good draft capital. Refer to Lynch (I know, I know... he's a KP forward and they take longer)...he was a first rounder who was traded for a late second rounder... That's the key. If you take a highly drafted player and hope that his potential works out at another club, then that's ok, provided you don't give up much to get him. Besides all that, it's more about how much room you have in your 22. Who wants to see him languishing at Casey when our fleet of small forwards are dominating at AFL level? It's not that he's not good enough. But a small forward? We're swimming in them at the moment.

Little bit of Benken around him. If you traded a second rounder for him, you'd likely be eyeing the second rounder's career as a comparison, and not be happy with what you see. The real question is... we'll have plenty of players wanting to play for us. So do we need him over another small forward who's keen on the red and blue? Is there even ROOM in our 22 for a small forward? MFC's small forward brigade would, as of now, be one of the hardest roles to get a game in league wide. When you consider our starting Fs, there always seems to be about 14 of them. So good luck to anyone trying to squeeze those guys out. I'm all for the trading of a 3rd rounder, or a past-it spud for a former top 4 pick. As long as the club realises that's all they're doing. Trading for pretty much a draft bust.

It could still happen, Bradford style. We're a long way from week 8... The usual media on Wentz. Cleared for 7 on 7 this week and on track to come back in time. Players saying he is throwing it as well or better. It's all the regular stuff though... we won't know anything til we see him move. His ability to evade is critical to his success. Personally, I have Goff as the sllliiiiightly better arm for release time and precision. If Wentz can't go sideways, he will need to find some clever new tricks to get past Goff.

Funny isn't it... Here I was when he smoked the Vikings like they were the Crows in Alice Springs, licking my chops at the first rounder he MIGHT be worth 2 weeks later if he was superbowl MVP in a winning side against the greatest coach and QB of all time (the QB throwing 500 yards, records tumbling all over the place)... Fast forward a few months, let the thrill die down (it hasn't), take a look at the surrounding befuddlement of the QB market... and after all that? I want Foles to stick around. He's earned a starting job... Nothing is more certain than that. Also nothing is more certain than the fact that Wentz could do 3 more ACLs and he'd STILL be the starting QB of the Eagles. And STILL, Foles' best chance to enjoy his career, job, life, success... is at the champs. For now. I still think our overarching point from months ago holds true. Wait til preseason week three, someone will get hurt somewhere. They'll kick the tires on Bridgewater. They sniff around a few others. And someone, somewhere, will offer a first rounder. To be honest though, I'm still that overcome with gratitude with the ridiculous level he played at that I hope they let him choose. I know that's more than likely the footy romantic in me, but still... As for ideal teams? A team that's close to playoffs but needs that next guy... Ravens, Cinci, imagine if Rivers suddenly declined/got hurt and Foles got moved to Chargers?!...

He'd be a good get. But it would mean we've gone away from the contested ball identity we've been on about under Goody. Many think we need X amount of inside players and Y amount of outside. Under the current list management structure, they've gone for ALL contested beasts. Even the FF is expected to drift in the middle and clear the ball. So it wouldn't surprise me to see us overlook him, or just not offer as much as, say, the Saints who would offer a first rounder and more for him.

Ha. Yeah good luck with that boys. Same with the Rabbitoh the Eagles recruited who's never played a snap in his life. Has to face Cox, Bennett, Graham... Happy with the only handful of picks. Some guys who were hurt but have massive upside. A corner to take over from Robinson who's short but great. I like it. Made plenty out of not much draft capital. Filled all our needs. On a side note I was hoping we'd take Guice.

Tavon gooooooone! To the cowboys. @Gorgoroth happy?

The time dragged out is because draft day trades come thick and fast. They get phone calls from potentially 31 clubs. And if one of them is one they can't refuse they take it. Tends to happen more after the first 6 picks, but they happen consistently. It'll be the same in the AFL from as early as this year, potentially.

The Allen thing... are they just all about him cos they've seen how Wentz has gone? If so, crazy.

Me too. I mean... Like I said I'd have taken, happily, a move from 32 to 15 where Arizona are picking... but if that's out of the question, then my Wentz knee fear wins any Foles debate in my head. Eagles are in a situation where their backup QB is more feared now than some starters. How often in the NFL does that happen. So has anyone earmarked a player with their team's first pick? I have my eye on whatever RB the Eagles identify. I poo-pooed the Blount pickup at the start of last year, and he was absolutely integral the the Eagles year. Not always massive stats, but important goal line carries most weeks, and all through playoffs including a great, great superbowl. I have my eye on Chubb... the RB variety... who will still be there at 32.

Yeah. "May." I was more "hoping" he'd get traded as I wanted that first rounder. But wasn't interested in a late second rounder, as Jimmy G got better than that. Always felt pre season or early 2018 was most likely, but certainly didn't see a minor contract extension coming, not in today's day and age of fast and furious trades. It was an extension they didn't need to do, so I'm pretty pleased they tried to help him out.

I think we all settled on that. The debate was more about what he'd be worth in a trade, rather than the likelihood. I thought all along that with Wentz's knee being as it was, the preference would be either a first rounder, or to keep him. As you say, it'll go on and on the will-they-won't-they talk. Part of me thinks they might eventually tire of the speculation and move him on just to stop the external noise.

Eagles are still partying... Won't be attending at all. Interestingly, they hosted the draft last year, and within a few months hoisted the Lombardi in the same place. After all the Dallas trolling. Pretty sweet. Only problem with that... It's in Dallas this time. So speaking of draft... How we feeling @Macca @Clintosaurus @Gorgoroth @Kraken @JV7 @DeeSpencer? Any early picks? Aside from the usual QB talk, I'm interested in Barkley the most. Will he be Zeke or Richardson? And what about Chubb? Speaking of QBs.... The Foles trade didn't end up happening @Macca

Not to barge in uninvited... Maybe you can't. But you can argue whether or not the issue's are even worth raising. I don't see it as any different to the age old question of "some players take longer than others." You can point out faults in nearly every player's game in that way. Having those faults isn't an indicator of future success though. Judd wasn't a good kick. TMac has woeful kicking skills. Similarly a kid like Harmes? Nothing on a football field he can't do. But does he do it? Not nearly as often as he should. Why? Because of his age, games experience, cumulative pre-seasons and the style of game he plays. In the context of their careers, the time for guys like him and ANB is NOW. Have they become whipping boys? Not at all. This "whipping boy" crowd have let them go largely unnoticed. Yet a kid like Oscar who's at a relatively similar age and experience in terms of games played, and is playing a much harder one-on-one role that traditionally NO-ONE does well at within their first 100 games (Rance, anyone?)... is poleaxed here and elsewhere. Anyway, you've heard all pro-Oscar and anti-Oscar rhetoric. It's been nothing but that for the whole time he's played seniors. The reason I've chimed in here is that (maybe for the first time) demonlanders are pointing the finger at themselves. What are WE doing right and wrong. For what it's worth, having been posting here for the last 15 years or so, when you look at the full scope of a player's career, the whipping boy "finding faults" mentality you raise is infuriatingly useless. And probably, in the end, only harmful to a kid's development. And in the end, so often the groupthink thing is just plain WRONG. Not taking aim at you and jnr and the regular posters here who love their footy and know what they're talking about, but holy smokes, some people just plain don't know footy. The Oscar "whipping-boy" thing is one of the better examples. He's doing exactly what he should be doing as a KP defender that's early in his career.

?? I understood perfectly. I DISAGREED. I'll explain again. I understand some players draw ire from supporters. What I'm saying is that that sentiment is to be ignored, as it's unreliable. I've been around long enough to know that groupthink isn't to be trusted. You think Oscar cops it harshly? Demonland might not have been as well populated back then but Jamar copped it from literally everyone on here. Went on to be an All Australian. Similarly, players like Rivers were great when they started and went on to do sweet f/a. But on demonland, because they'd been decorated early in their careers, they were defended from criticism. Do you follow? What? Come on jnr, you're better than this. Read it again. You understand what implication means, right? I'm not comparing the quality of the players. I'm highlighting the fact that both have played a month of one-on-one KP defending roles deep inside fifty. One (Oscar) has performed well and been trashed on here and elsewhere... the other has been woeful (Jake) and is defended because the dees faithful can't handle criticism when it comes to big-money deals going wrong. Do you see? I'm not comparing the players' quality (I reckon Jake will work out as the better overall player)... I'm IMPLYING that the public perception of them is wrong. You can do this with so many of the criticisms on here. In Oscar's case it's way out of whack. He's not a future AA, but he's doing well and building nicely. In other words he's a whipping boy unnecessarily, and the groupthink that led to him being one is wrong. Same as it was for Jack, Jamar, Nev.. the list goes on. STMJ is right. There IS a reason the public make whipping boys. They're STUPID. They SHOULD be aiming their anger at the MFC coaching group. But that's a different thread. Watts and Bennell? Oh for christs sake. Watts was over 22, whipping boy, and he was actually a pretty good player. Go back through all the #1 picks in history. Plenty of them aren't as good as Jack. And don't give me Bennell. He was never a whipping boy. I don't remember ever reading anything about him, TBH.

I'm not referring to or reacting to criticism. It's the nonsensical abuse I'm talking about. And yes, whipping boys do appear without reason. Not all the time, but often without legitimate cause. Oscar has been pasted on here, and elsewhere, even though he's a KP player who's still developing. Jake Lever has gotten off lightly compared to the abuse Oscar's copped. What's the age difference? About 2 weeks. A "common view" is as regularly wrong as it is right. In all fields. People are thick. A PERSON is smart. I find it funny that whipping boys always seem to be under 22ish... and certain other players get off scot free.

Yeah, in a roundabout way it's a good place for us to be in as a club. The sooks on d'land and elsewhere always need their whipping boy. Nowadays they have to pick players who are actually playing well to get their weekly abuse in. Going along well is Oscar. Some other whipping boy highlights - Jeffy who's roundly believed to be knocking on the door of AA. Lewis who was second in B&F. Bugg who kicked 4 a week and a half ago. Wagner who has been among our best defenders through the first 3 weeks.