Dappa Dan

I really wish we could do that in the AFL. The team-specific calls, that is. I've let my gamepass lapse finally. Too expensive, not worth it.

- We sure are. And that's great you have that view. I won't say I'm envious, but I certainly respect that view. - I do watch them, mate. Almost all of them (you know how much fantasy footy I play). - You're wrong. I DON'T see it as you see it. I've soaked in all the data the same way you have, and I've come to a DIFFERENT conclusion. The more "other" games I watch, the more I see there are variances in umpiring you're not accounting for, for some reason. And yes, I've heard your view as well (maybe not 1000s of times, I'll grant you that)... You're not Robinson Crusoe. And while I respect your view, I think you're wrong. TRY not to crucify me for it, or better yet, try to assume it's possible I've CONSIDERED my view, and haven't made it ad-hoc like seemingly everyone else. You should know better than to think I've come to my conclusions because of a lack of forethought, or a lack of experience. - Absolutely. Like I've said over and over. I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong. I'm just saying we don't agree. Shall we leave it at that?

Might be a good time to PM.

I know it's a pipe dream mate. That's what I said. I'M AWARE Nicholls umpires an unumpirable sport. They ALL do. But they don't seem to make the same types of mistakes he does. What I don't think you're hearing is that we all know it's a tough job. We hear it. And we all have a threshold of bad decisions we can cope with. You might be right that people on here are a bit aggressive when it comes to umpire abuse. I dunno, I don't stick around here long enough to see it. But there is a large proportion who point out specific umpires mistakes and are entitled to do so because they see a difference in the way he umpires to the way other umpires go about their work. In other words, I'M WITH YOU on defending umpires, but not 100% of the time. SOMETIMES pointing the finger at them (or more often, the AFL rulesmakers) is appropriate. I understand you don't agree, but my view isn't wrong. It's just different. Same as yours. And perhaps you think we do spend too much time concerning ourselves with it. That's your view, and that's fine. But it's also not wrong to suggest that in the changing world of AFL footy (and it is chaging... rapidly) staying on top of what makes umpiring "good" and what makes it "bad" is something that should rightly preoccupy the greater football public. One thing, for example, is the suggestion that some umpires want to control games more than others. To reel in players' behaviours and try to prevent them from falling outside the rules. That's a good example of something Razor's been accused of for years, that I'd like to see stamped out. Way too often the players break the rules and the umpires try to control them like school children. I worry that the AFL has given them that instruction, rather than it coming from themselves... either way though, it's a superfluous thing that COULD be controlled a bit better.

Again mate, we have differing views. I think he umpires worse than others. You don't have to agree, I'm just putting out my view. And I don't agree that having a specific view on a specific umpire automatically is a problem, or makes someone "wrong." But yes otherwise I'm with you. What would be nice is if fans pointed out when an umpire did well. Not that that'll happen. But at least you could see some balance. Yeah I always try to resist using the block function. I worry that I'd end up coming to dland and seeing nothing but "you've chosen to block poster X" over and over again. lol

I didn't say you should be turned away! You're the one that proposed everyone just get over it. For what it's worth I think this thread makes sense. It was a controversial game umpiring wise. Not THAT controversial, I guess, but certainly notable. Only reason I posted was because it's interesting how usually you do get a leaning one way or the other... this is a weird one in that impartials seemed to think WC got the rub of the green. Seems odd to me. Not really that important going forward, but still odd. Yeah fair enough if you're over the umpire talk taking over all threads. I tend to leave game day threads alone these days because of the targeting of every player's mistakes. Seems to be a lot of absolute views, like Tyson should never play another game, we'll never make finals, we can't win this (and then we do). re: Nicholls. I dunno mate. I don't think I'm seeing the same threads as you are. He's certainly been targeted, and I'm comfortable with that. But I haven't seen the hysteria. I'm very picky these days about what threads and posters I read. Demonland was, once upon a time, a spirited place to go. It's so big now I reckon it's got a bit watered down in terms of quality posters. I'll just have to take your word on the hysteria thing. Bloody hell. Pre-season really is dragging.

Well, that's true. I do think there's something to noticing patterns in the umpiring when they're there. But beyond noticing, as you say, there's not much more to do. Maybe you're not trying to, but insisting - "What I've never done is jump the shark and play victim - you should do the sensible thing and do the same." Is perhaps a little overkeen. If it makes no difference to you, then why not ignore it? I'm not trying to argue with you! I've heard your case, I understand you believe your opinion is the correct one and i'm comfortable with that. I just don't agree. I've seen all the data, and watched all my footy and come to a different conclusion. I won't pass out advice on what other people are supposed to do with it though. I think if you're trying to calm them down as you say, that's going about it in exactly the opposite way if you wanna get anywhere. lol Like I said already, I'm not expecting perfection. Barely anyone ever is. But there's howlers. And there's a threshold you get to with umpiring where you want it to be within a reasonably tolerable amount of predictability. I think they've fallen outside it this year. But like I said, you get good games, bad games. Good years, bad years. Or you're Hawthorn and you get good decades. lol I'm interested in your 70% correct? Was that a rough stab? I reckon if anything, you're being unkind. I reckon they're better than that. Classic case was Dom's headbutt. The WC supporter I was with swore black and blue he deliberately headbutted Shuey's knee. That one I don't have a problem with one way or the other. You have to call it in today's climate. But if it didn't get called, I wouldn't be spitting chips. I'm not as red and blue biased as you've assumed I am. Ah. You've been doing this 2 days? I see. That explains your tone. I only just noticed the thread. And for sure, if you're trying to influence people, then go for it. I'm not trying to influence anyone. Pointless exercise.

I think Saints game was one. And there was another earlier that I think we got up for, but I forget which. Like I said Macca, each to their own. I'm not trying to campaign to change anyone's mind. Not looking for the rub of the green sometimes. Just for it to be as close to 50% as possible, within reason. I'm fully aware, and I suspect most on here are, of the wider implications of umpiring in footy. What's the old Axiom, you can't ever improve the kicking or umpiring in footy? Yes, yes, yes... we've heard all that and have factored it in. You should too when guessing at what we're all thinking. Yes I'm aware all fans complain. Pies fans are classic ones. Tigers fans don't complain all that much considering they're in the negative by -100s. Bombers fans back in the day took the free kicks against and still enjoyed success. Yes, yes, yes. We know. Moaning about it won't change, but then cheering doesn't change anything either. This is a supporter website. Most everything we DO here doesn't change anything. And no, I shouldn't do the "sensible" thing. I don't think it's sensible to turn a blind eye to something when you see it's out of whack. Playing victim would be to just go "oh well, I guess that's just our lot as Melbourne supporters." No-one's playing victim, Macca. I'm well within my rights as any poster is to point out that this year, the umpiring has been worse than most. If you want my ACTUAL position on umpiring, then you can have it if you ask. Like you I think they do an impossible job and don't deserve the disgusting behaviour they cop. Doesn't mean you can't point out faults, or point out biases. A lot are umpire-fault, more are umpire coaching and AFL guidelines getting all screwed up. What's a footy forum for but to discuss these aspects of the game? Come to terms with it all? You're being over-dramatic on this one, and disrespectful to your fellow posters. People are complaining because it's the only thing left to do. I've pointed out a couple of times that we do seem to get overlooked by Nicholls a lot. He, like Razor, over-officiates. That's just my opinion. I think the hometown bias does happen too, over in the West, that's been pointed out a lot. I watched last weekend's game with a WC supporter and he's sure there's been a shift since the home-town bias stuff was being talked about. You don't have to agree. You can take an opposite view if you're like. But no-one's wrong about it. The whole thing is subjective. Actually, I think that's become the biggest issue in my view. They've taken to trying to read the minds of players. Umpires are dealt such a harsh hand, and are being expected to guess at the intentions of footballers. The end result of that is that everyone's subjective view is given more importance. It's a worry for sure. I reckon they'll see that pretty soon and improve it though. You get good years and bad years. It can't be like NFL unfortunately.

No, only one was. You know better than to make presumptions. And yes, I stand corrected. I jumped right off us. I think I only got back on before the NFC Championship game.

It'd be the first time... lol Well... second. (Hundley)

Not sure where to put this, as it's not really a selection thing... But going into finals, Hibberd being back and being in good form, with one game and then a fortnight to keep himself cherry ripe... No doubt our defence and it's injuries is our big, big weakness... Him being there, and just being able to defend AND rebound, even if only effectively for a couple of quarters a game... makes a huge, huge difference to any success MFC has this final series.

I reckon they have. On 3 separate occasions (games) this year I thought we were badly hurt by them. And that's after I adjust for my own Red and Blue bias. And in general in games I see a lot of Selwood type stuff happen that oppo teams get that we don't. All part and parcel of following a young team who aren't wily. Each to their own though. Other people can see it as they want.

Oddly enough, if you wander over to bigfooty, there's as many impartial who thought we were robbed as there are WC supporters who were whining. We did get two obvious ones overlooked on Avb. Given how bad the umps have been for us this year, I'll take it.

Totally true. In their defence, though... We are at a breaking point. All through this year we had guys knocking on the door to come in. Now with the injuries we have, the next man up will be a big downgrade on who played over at Optus on Sunday. Bugg did have some selection-worthy games earlier this year, and was pretty close a couple of times. He's sort of the best of a bad bunch in some peoples' eyes. And he's a mature body, coming into finals. But yes, your point is dead on.

Welcome to the thread Zeph.

DV... Mate... What the hell are you talking about. What's this now. 10th quote and you're still full of hot air? Still haven't said anything new? Keep digging.

Ha. much appreciated Macca. You're a gentleman and a scholar as always. I have seen it, just the once, so I'll enjoy again. Yeah would be good to get the comp going again. Comps run quite well with 12 names. I have 2 others who I know would enjoy. Possibly 3. Maybe even 4 (myself included). You gotta have a critical mass of 50% of those really into it though or it descends into a bit of a waste of time, as it was last time. My brother and I actually started the original demonland AFL keeper league, and it was a similar disaster of abuse and misunderstanding. I pulled out when he was being abused, he pulled out soon after. So it IS a hairy concept. So I think I'll keep prompting everyone, and if they go for it one day, I'd be happy to manage. But until then... I'll be taking you @Gorgoroth @layzie @cowboy_from_hell down, and returning to my rightful place on the NFL thread throne.

Terrific stuff Pickett. A bit of mayo thrown in there with the wording too, I like it. But I STILL have the urge to put the gun-to-your-head question... I'll hold off for now though. OH YES THERE IS! lol Like Pickett, I'll be putting that question to you if we all live long enough to see Clarrie retire in the Red and Blue one day and get to take stock. You've more or less answered it for now. Robbie the best you've ever seen play the game? Says enough. And yes, great point on Ollie. If we want to break down players into types... Neitz is still the #1 KP forward. Hogan isn't there yet, and I suspect won't get there. Schwartz would have beaten Neitz by a nose... enough's been said on that topic. What Ollie does, though... Here's yet another way to look at it... You know how we're a poor club, and other clubs get these logic-defying players... Voss, Hird, Sam Mitchell, Ablett jr, Dangerfield, Fyfe... These absolute magicians that play the game in a way you don't really understand... Watching those guys as an opposition fan, you never really knew what it was like to be a fan of their club. We had so many stalwarts. Proud players who did more than I'll ever do... But we never had anything like this. And it's not a one-off year for him, or a short burst of brilliance. The whole league has taken notice inside of 50 games. Elite really isn't a big enough word. Some of the stuff he does... No-one else in the league does. You're absolutely right... If you really feel every possession that MFC gets, then watching him is a kind of joy none of us have ever known, other than when watching other club's players with a healthy dose of envy.

Maybe the one BIG area AFL has it over NFL. The spread of game times. I like your idea of watching live. Thing is, in a fantasy comp, you get the news more or less as it happens. I can't hack the 4-5am games... Sometimes I wish I wasn't hooked on fantasy footy. I still feel like maybe one day we'll have enough demonlanders to start a league.

Always one, isn't there. Aussie fans have a long way to go.

I'll think about it...

Yeah that's a good point. I wonder if you can prepare a young list of midfielders for that. I don't even reckon the coaches knew what they had when he was recruited. I remember in Oliver's second pre-season the media were always asking who's the best of the big 3 young players who've come to the club... Oliver, Hogan and Tracca. You expect Hogan cos of everything he does and what he represents. But nearly everyone had Oliver out in front. I was confused as I hadn't seen enough. Almost 2 full seasons on... and I get it now. So if he's only had 43 games playing at this level, how well can you know what he's going to do if you're a midfielder playing next to him? How do you coach the players around a freak like that to take advantage of the absurd Jedi-like things he does?

Yeah exactly, if you try to cram other names into the conversation, there's always caveats. Scott Thompson should absolutely be in there, but he left. Certain players are outside and he's inside. Certain players played what amounts to a different sport... So I understand there's a problem with oversimplification there when you ask "who's the best midfielder in your lifetime." Thing is... As you say, on pace, he'll have them all beaten very soon. I think I posed this question 21 games ago for the first time when he rounded out his second season, and in that time I expected people to throw restrictions on the question, or categories... and it's actually gone the other way. Now I'm wondering if he's the best PLAYER we've seen in our lifetimes. Never mind this midfielder stuff. I was 7 in 1987 so never really got the Robbie Flower experience that our long-in-the-tooth friends on here did. THESE are the guys I wanna hear from. What would Clarry have to do to get into the Flower/Oliver conversation? I sometimes ask a similar question about Mitch Johnson's ashes series and push them on a comparison between that series and how Lillee played. How close were they, who was scarier, who was faster etc etc... And it's that sort of level of comparison. I can't make the comparison, so I look to my elders. The Jedi thing. Mate... it's not one a week. It's many of the contests he goes to. There's the thing a player like Braysh does where he barrels through and by force of will releases a loose ball. With Oliver, my best guess is that as a kid he had a coach who told him to set up at a clearance and look closely at where your opposition is... then if the ball falls to you (and it does, cos of Max), get it as soon as you can and release as soon as you can in the direction that those oppo players AREN'T. It's like watching Vader predict where the lasers are going to be before he light-sabers them away. And it's not just one massive play. He does something freaky at 5-10 contests a game.

The feeling is completely different isn't it. Beat Pies and youshout from the rooftops. Beat WC over there when they're second on the ladder... You almost don't know what to do. Your cup overflows. One of the biggest things is, it could be ten years before you do it again.

I mull this over every time he puts another paragraph on his legend. Is this what we'll have or will he adapt further. I don't wanna be glass half empty, but I think it's pretty much what we see now. He's taken the criticism and I think doubled his metres gained this year. They put him forward on the weekend for good results. But I think mostly he won't get quicker, or find a bigger tank. The only jump up we might see is 10% when other clubs start playing youth and he's 25+. He is already so professional. Genuine question... Who was it 20 years ago that he hasn't overtaken yet? I put this to a mate who was born in the early 70s... who's the best midfielder the clubs seen in your lifetime... and he said Todd Viney. Clarry hasn't quite got the accolades Todd did yet, but I think it's fair to say he'll go past him. That's amazing. I remember seeing it when he was drafted and thinking, ok yeah, sure, but is he quick enough? I didn't know that that wasn't just his highlights. That's every contest he goes into. His pattern recognition and ability to understand when his opposition is off balance... he's like a Jedi. Man, the recruiters really do earn their money.