Cards13

Nait and rich are supposed to be guns so why not? Y_M good thread.

I'd suggest the only one's on our list "untouchable" would be Morts, Davey, Rivers and maybe Batram.

The rest I would give away for the 2nd pick in next years draft. As WC said this is the draft you need to pick up some early talent as the next 5 years are going to be raped by the new teams coming into the comp.

Pick 17, one of Sylvia/McLean and if needs be one of our late round picks even.... Obviously you do not want to over pay but for those two you'd pay a high price...

But as most have mentionedthere would be very very very little chance any one in the top 5 will trade out unless they think they only need one or two good players to get close to a premiership again, if we look at the current ladder then WCE are 2nd last and do not look like do much for the year.

Rich is from WA, no way in hell they will trade away him. Freo 3rd last same was WC, no chance. Port not likelt and Essendon only if something special like Davey plus 17. To high a price for mine.

And you believe that the other clubs are going to trade early picks knowing what lies ahead? Clubs are far more judicious with trading early picks, which is why few trades actually go through.

For those professing a complete overhaul of our list need a reality check. Their replacements will predominently be draftees selected after pick 30, with a poor success rate of being A grade players.

And those who believe that we can build a premiership team in the next 5 years through the draft and trade system are delusional.

I think we have done really well with mid round and late round and rookie listed picks, it has been the top end of the draft with the superstar players where we have fallen over.

the clubs will not let them get the first 5 picks from each draft, that is a frickin' joke

I believe it is basically signed and sealed. Listening to Gary Pert (Pies CEO) on SEN before the Anzac clash he said the clubs all support the proposals, whatever they are and are 100% behind the expansion and the need for those clubs to be strong right from the start. THat leaves us a little vulnerable... we should be used to it by now

Don't get me wrong, I love this club more than anyone.. I've been a member for 19 consecutive years... But l tell you what here's a Solution, start from the top.. The President! He is an absolute goose. He can never give a straight answer. Appoint a president with a history of success, a president with a bit of passion.

Look Bailey might be ok.. but In my opinion, he was not the right person for the job. We needed a coach that could market our club to it's potential in it's 150th year, a coach who would draw sponsership and members to our club. And a coach that would scare the living [censored] out of underachievers like Travis Johnstone, Colin Sylvia, Brad Green and the rest of the fairy's down there. Sheedy was the man.

And then we need to completly overturn our list! The fact that Mark Jamar still plays AFL football staggers me... fair dinkum. Holland, Jamar, Mc Donald, Yze, White, Miller, P. Johnson, Chris Johnson, Garland, Robbo, Wheatley, Warnock, THERE NO GOOD!!!!!! GET RID OF THEM! These players will not take our club to any level.

And as for Cards 13 & condemed, there's no need to get personal.. At least l am realistic and honest. That is why our club is the way it is.. People like you two who always think everything is rosey.

Well done instead of vitriol some basic concepts of a solution. At the time Gardner was the best candidate, he has said for a number of years he doesn't want to do the job forever. Translation he wants to move on but as there seems to be no one else who actually wants to do it with the criteria you suggested then he has to keep on going with it. He stuck his hand up to do the job, has he done a fantastic job? No but at least he is putting his arse on the line.

Not to sure I agree on the Bails assessment just yet. I think you need a coach to coach...We need a CEO to market the club and a marketing dept to market the club. I think Bails is and will continue to scare the [censored] out of those mentioned players along with the leadership group that seems to have taken on a greater role within the discipline process this season.

Bails turned over a portion of the list but had to keep a certain portion as he was coming in blind, as another thread is discussing we will turn over another huge portion of games at the end of they year, it doesn't happen mid season.

I'm shattered to see us in this position, we are so far off the pace it is not funny. But I think we are moving in the right direction. Whether this is rosy glasses only time will tell. We need a new Pres and to wait for the end of the season before our list is turned over and we get a new influx of draftees and another preseason into the draftees from the last two seasons

"We rated his game as equal to the game last week, when he kicked five goals."

That's the quote that I found disturbing. Little wonder we haven't looked like kicking 100 points in any game this year, when the coaches have this mindset. If he was promoted to the seniors, they'd be just as happy if he made 4 tackles than kick 3 goals. Amazing!

What?!?! Mo you make some good points on here but this one baffles me. If he has laid 7 tackles, 7!, tackles that is 7 times the ball will be kept in our forward line. That is 7 more opportunities for us to potentially score... we [censored] and moan about robbo or nieta not showing anything in our f50, a bloke goes about laying 7 tackles for a forward that is outstanding.

7 chances for the ball to spill out and another forward slot a goal, 7 potential holding/dropping the balls....

Maybe a light at then end of this tunnel too...

Matthew Warnock

Matt Warnock has been consistently in our best three players over the past three weeks. He had 28 touches across the half back line. He showed a real balance in his game, he beat his man one on one, and marked well and attacked the game off half back. With Matt’s recent form, he is on the verge of senior selection.

We could offer J Brown 6 million a season and he wouldn't sign with us. Half the players we have don't have a passion to play for the jumper, as if any playing elsewhere would have a passion to play for it.

Again someone has said this in another post and it is true, very few play for the jumper as they barracked for other teams as kids, it is about playing for the $$ and for your team mates now days.

You might be able to entice a JB by stroking his ego... you could build this club back to where it belongs, top of the ladder, you could be the saviour blah blah blah. Then you need to show him more money than anyone else can as we have such bad facilites.

as for DICK Cheney have some solutions to the [censored] you're saying or don't bother.

actually you c13 raise an interesting side note to all this; Free Agency. It wil come. if in a limited fashion. But with clubs staring the barel of losing some miffed stars in the next couple of years they ( clubs) might be tempted to hedge bets by shoring up some players NOW before they can walk for nix. This will be where Brown is going to exact a hefty sum..either sign him or he can wander in a few years. Carlton may well take a similar route. Fev will get a better contract than he's offered now but it wil have "many" clauses for sure.

... when does Riewoldt's contract expire?? I just think things are on the verge of massive changes in the way the AFL does things. With the new clubs, drafting priorites for TWO teams, potential FA and trading, I hope we are looking ahead for it all.

Why the hell do people rate Ashley Hansen. He's a slightly more polished Brad Miller type of player.

With no Judd and Cousins and Kerr heavily tagged, Hansen has barely sniffed the leather.

Quetin Lynch and Ashley Hansen are two of the luckiest players in the AFL as others have made them look good.

Now their go-to-man is a 3 gamer ben mckinley. a 6'0. Not the two suppposedly KPP.

I'll be filthy if we chased Hansen, let alone give weagles a second round draft pick.

I thought he might have been better than that but his best game was 21 possies, he has massive hamstring issues. He can't get on the park to prove his potential. He was drafted in 2001 and has played 58 games at 25 yrs of age.... I don't get it either.

We bemoan the fact that we don't have any elite players on our list, and yet you aren't prepared to get a superstar from another club. You can't develop the next Jonathon Brown.

BTW, I don't think that Brown will leave the Lions, and I don't rate Fevola as an elite player.

The issue is as RR and Jumbo have said in another thread the most who come through the PSD are not quite right, either in the head or on footy ability. Whilst Fev is one of the superstars of the comp he is now looking at his last big contract, he is a Blues man through and through now, and he has a history of stuffing up. He is on his last warning, would you really want that bloke around our seemingly fragile group. Nieta, who from what we have heard over the last few days, is the most dedicated MFC man going around yet can not lift this group how would a knuckle head like Fev mess with there heads.

Judd is a rarity in everything he does, and i think he might have if not opened the flood gates he certainly has pushed them further a jar for players to look to move more freely. They players assoc has been talking about free agency for a number of years now and even the likes of J Brown want it, it is a matter of the quality of superstar you chase.

Judd yes, Kerr definately look at although he is a knuckle head as well, Fev i would say no.... My 2 cents

I think Ben Cousins has been playing with Demons for quite a few years

The last thing i want to see is him prove it by wearing our guernsey

boom boom. Keep up the good work!

Hmmmm - Geelong have an excess? Dunno...it seems that Brent Moloney was expendable because he wasn't getting a game with the ones. Brent's problem is a lack of awareness, a lack of the footy smarts, that innate, intangible that cannot be coached. King and Playfair at the Saints, but I don't rate them - just as Rhino said, players that are NQR.

Hawks had a Croad they could throw up for trade who also had some MEDIA value - a player our club does not have. I agree with your last sentence. We need to prepare for some suffering to pick up some draft because our list is not a quick fix. I think to try and recruit other fringe players is fraught with danger. The thinking has to be so far left that it would make a Socialist Party convention look like a Young Libs BBQ.

Just for the record, do you think Craig Cameron was that good?

I'd be thinking more along the lines of a Primsall/Byrnes who can't quite get in the 1's yet are supposed to be players of some value. It is not easy to break into that side. Same at Hawks with the forward line excess. We do not seem to have many options and a Williams or a Boyle would be a ready made solution depending on the draft pick they want.

Fev is up for contract, Blues offering 1 year deal, he wants long term for potentially his final contract....

I also read with interest todays paper with the draft concessions the QLD and NSw teams are going to potentially get... Time to look at trades now for those drafts. Lets think outside of the square.

I wrote a piece on big footy at the start of the year and I think the heading was MFC drafting = terrible, so no. I grabbed a heap of facts from Footywire on every draft we've had. We ave the 3rd least number of games per player drafted. His pointy end of drafts have been terrible. The late round and rookie selections have been great for us over the years.

The retirements were a consequence that many of the players had reached the end of their useful life as AFL footballers. In the case of many of them we held onto deadwood far too long. Many of the footballers listed were gone before Bailey and number of games gives no indication of capability going forward. Only TJ and Brown were best 22 from the group departed last year.

TJ was the only effective choice of DB to act.

From this year possibly all those players listed for 2008 should go as well.

Bailey has no choice but to clean out and retire a number of players who have been kept far too long. His rebuild is being forced by circumsntances that preceded his arrival.

Jumbo is correct about not offering up players when they had value. We took the brave and right decision on Woewodin in 2002 and we let it slip after that.

On the previous site I had argued that we should have done the following:

2004 Traded Yze and TJ. Let Bizzell go the PSD.

2005 Traded White, Robbo

2006 Not traded for Pickett.

Its come back to haunt us big time with the biggest deadwood clearance this side of a Bunnings warehouse.

57 weeks ago WM most of the players listed were also at the end of the career. ND held on for one more roll of the dice for a flag and it went awfully pear shaped but the signs were there earlier and he put reliance in front runners like Yze that withered as time went on.

Unless a marque player is available trading will only top up your existing list to complement what is already there. AFL trading is normally full of NQR who are despatched by their clubs for a good reason. And as a reliable resource for talent it is grossly overrated.

I think the only issue with the logic of trading some of those names is the footy dept of the time thought they were all required players... Now that veiw seems pretty clearly to not have been correct.. You have to give up something to get something, Danners and CAC thought they had the list to win a flag....

Like you said RR Bails is stuck with what has been left over and he will have a number of years to try and get out of this hole.

And correct the AFL draft is NQR players and maybe they need to look at it a little differently especially with the two new teams coming being able to cherry pick talent before the drafts...

Hey Cards13....no, no facts. Unlike most of the posters on this site, who are in the inner sanctum and kkknnnoowww everything, I have no such kudos. Danners wasn't a No 22 man, he wasn't a big fan of No 5, traded matty bishop, failed to develop chris lamb and ryan ferguson....etc. Like I said, only hearsay, unsubstantiated, and I stand before you fragile and naked............figuratively speaking of course!!! I'm not convinced that your comparison is valid - there are so many leagues over there, bigger population, more coin, everything. The teams in the AFL are more coy about their trades, in relation to not giving anyone away that might help the opposition improve their position. Secondly, some clubs will not trade with each other. That's a fact - isn't it?

Na you're right JR, just would have been interesting to see some facts. I agree with you though that they failed to develop those two players but at the same time were they actually as good as the position they were drafted???

Yea and I think the coyness is where some change might need to take place... along the lines of opening up and looking at say a Hawthorn and see they have a bucket load of talent.. can we as a club convince them we have one player/draft pick that will get them over the top for a Boyle or a Williams who seem to be expendable but would help us out.. Or a Geelong, how many excess players do they have that we might be able to try and target that would add some value? Would they add any value? Would it be better for us to keep all our draft picks/players (I doubt we'd get one offer for any of our players) and build through the draft over 3 years near the bottom?

oh RR it is a touch early din din isn't it, or are you heading down to the 4pm early bird special....

My point, obviously was not made well enough, was I assumed that he would be an automatic promotion and play some senior footy now. We have seen a number of the current listed players so far this season and they have not looked the goods as yet. I am interested to see how Valenti will go at the next level, if he is good enough then it opens up potential trade opportunites, if anyone will touch our current players.

I understoond his point and it's ramifications but thanks again for the direction, you're a good man RR

Read Nasher post #14

....... and........

Interesting reading - I agree that list management was shocking during the Daniher years and we needed to be more aggressive with our turnover. The problem was that players were not offered up for trade when they had some value. I understand that this is a subjective scenario, but no mistake, I'm still shaking my head at the philosophy behind the recruitment of Phil Read, Craig Ellis, Gary Moorcroft and others of the same ilk.

Has Craig Cameron gone to Richmond? Was he that good a recruiter?

Hey Jumbo... Have you got facts to back that up? I'd be interested to see if we did not offer players to trade away, i'd suggest Danners would not have wanted to trade anyone as he was such a players man.

Would also be interested to see if other clubs wanted any of our players and the offers they made. We seem to keep players based on potential when they could have been traed away for potentially decent draft picks.

I have spent two years in the USA and watched NBA, NFL and NHL and how they go about the trades scenarios... they are not afraid to trade away 4, 5, 6 players in one go. I know they are different games but the principles are the same. Salary cap, win now mentalities for some clubs, rebuilding phases through the drafts for others... AFL as a whole needs to become more savy about trading, with a caveat. Very few teams in NBA, NFL, NHL have won championships trading for talent without an already decent core of talent, the Boston Celtics look like they could buck the trend. The draft is the way to build strong championship lists in salary cap sports which then moves to list management which we have been poor at.

At the news conference just held Bails said no one has been promoted and they might not prmote anyone.

Fark me he is a hard man. I would of thought Valsa was a monty to come up.

He said Valsa has been showing some alright form but needs to show more form before he will be put. Making him really work for it. I hope it spurs him on to work even harder and earn a spot.

Lot of healthy discussions. In todays Age they mentioned in the last para that Yze is close to getting a recall.. I'd be shocked and very disappointed if he did. Great servant of the club over the last 6 years but time to move on, what value in bringing him in?

Hopefully Valsa and Maric get a promtion along with Bate (if he is 100%) with Garland a potential inclusion after his BOG at Sandy.

What time is the press conference scheduled for today so I can tune into SEN?

I'm not disagreeing but you have to have 38 on the list at any one time. With Nieta on LTI then it is 37 so they can promote whomever they see fit. Who knows with Bails but you would have to think it would be Valsa, he just seems further developed than the other rookie fellas. No [censored] since he is older....

Connolly said Neitz would continue to work with rookie senior coach Dean Bailey.

"I have never come across a player who loved his football club or would do more for his football club than David Neitz," Connolly said. "He is the most passionate club man I think I've ever met."

GrGreen FF, Maric comes in as a crumber, which we have not had since Farmer left us.

Just a thought but ya think there is a direct correlation of players want to "return home" (Farmer and Thompson) and our rubbish facilities?

neita looked like he was holding back tears the entire time... you could hear in his voice how emotional he was... can't do anything but love the big fella...

said he just wants to get his body right, finish off his career on a positive note, and leave the team in a healthy condition...

Little concerned about the body getting right, if they met a specialist in Feb and they said not much can be done about it, you won't be hurt further just lost of pain when it gets knocked in certain ways... 8 weeks will make it better?? I hope so.

And the question still remains will he have to regain form at Sandy or come straight back in at Bails 100%?

That was very hard to watch.

I feel for Neita, for where he is at with his form, his body, his career. He doesn't want to leave a sinking ship, but how he finds the strength to keep going I just don't know.

He is an absolute champion of this club, and we are lucky to have him involved at any capacity. It will be a very very sad day when he finally says goodbye, and hopefully he gets the send off that he truly deserves.

Here here! When he said he wanted to be seen as being part of turning us around towards the end of the season when he can get back I got chills then...

Good good man to be leading our club till the end of the season

Hopefully the QueenC can drop the link tomo for those who want to watch the man in action.

ps fark you Hutchy, fark you right in the ahnus with a pitchfork. You offer to many opinions based of half facts and half truths for mine then true and push agendas of your own.. ie loose the bounce.

Lyon "How does it feel after the AFL kicked the MFC in the guts?"

Farken Carro jumps in ans says not it was a constructive meeting and out come

Lyon jumps her and says no it wasn't it was a kick in the guts...

Neita "It really hurts but we need the people (aupporters) to get behind the club, to be around we as the club (players, coahces, admin) need to stand up and sort it out as well. It hurts like hell but we want it to be better than where we are."

Always a bit light on for actual details on how things are being fixed and the next steps and signs we can see a light at the end of the tunnel but he is hurting, we are all hurting and we need to keep behind the club...