Whispering_Jack

... "They dont know what they gave them" but whatever it is, they do know that it can cure cancer. Riiiight

This thread is designated to all things draft on this day of days for recruiting. I'll kick off with this recent article about the opinion of Kevin Sheehan on the top draft candidates. "Shifter" is the godfather of drafting ~ Shifter's top 40 draft players I'm liking Brayshaw and Petracca for 2 & 3 and given those selections I wouldn't mind Dean Gore and Reece McKenzie if available when the time comes. My certainties are Billy Stretch at 42 and Neville Jetta as the rookie upgrade

The claim that the players are pawns in a political game is completely disingenuous. They are certainly pawns and have always been such but the game is not political. Rather, they were pawns in a supplements programme established by the football department to improve the team's performance and, on that basis, if two Essendon players are found to have taken banned substances as part of the programme, here are the potential consequences:- Are the Bombers inviting that sort of sanction on themselves?The world anti-doping rules clearly apply to individuals within team sports and those individuals constantly receive education on what is expected of them including reminders that they are responsible for what goes into their bodies. The fact is that in this case, the players signed consent forms for the injection of (among other things) thymosin. The records of those substances have mysteriously disappeared and there is no explanation given as to how this occurred although the claim is made that the players were not given ThymosinB4 which is banned but some other form of thymosin or thymomodulin which are not banned but are variously used for different purposes that you wouldn't expect to be used in connection with professional footballers. Stephen Dank, the scientist in charge of the programme is quoted in an article with Fairfax journalists Baker and McKenzie as stating TB4 was used on the players but later recanted when told by his interviewers that TB4 was on the S2 banned list. The invoices showing what was purchased by the EFC as thymosin are said to exactly match dosages used for TB4. It's a circumstantial case but on my reading of the available evidence, it is likely to satisfy the evidentiary tests required to find to the reasonable satisfaction of a tribunal that the players breached the AFL anti doping code. When you consider the list of items on the consent or waiver form signed by the players, there was sufficient information to alert them to matters of concern. Their education as AFL players taught them in those circumstances to refer the substances to others like parents, managers, doctors and other professionals. A simple Google search on thymosin would have told them that something might be amiss. Pawns?

The Clark/Landsberger Phantom Draft The Emma Quayle Phantom Draft The Brett Anderson Phantom Draft The Paige Cardona Phantom Draft The trend seems to be going in favour of the Saints picking McCartin and, as many have commented both here and elsewhere, we are going to end up with two of the best three young talents on draft day. We don't know how it will end up once the players drafted join their clubs but the vibe and the Mabo in me are saying it will be a good result for us. The ones we need to nail now are 40 and 53 and of course, a couple of handy rookies next week.

Glad to see you've done some research before answering my query and confirming that the term "Cronulla decision" is a complete misnomer. What you referred to was a number of deals cut by ASADA with players from various clubs who were involved in the doping programme in place at Cronulla in 2011, many no longer involved at that club. The sanctions were based on the co-operation of the NRL, the clubs involved and those players admitting guilt and they were ultimately given 12 month suspensions backdated to the conclusion of ASADA's report on the NRL (November, 2013) because of delays incurred by ASADA based on issues related to its general review into the gathering of evidence in anti-doping cases. The result was that some NRL players not involved in finals campaigns effectively received suspensions of three matches. Unlike the AFL case, the Cronulla doping programme was detected early and then immediately stopped by the club doctor. The Essendon programme is said to have lasted 12 months, involved waiver forms, thousands of injections, conveniently lost/missing records, delays, obfuscation and legal action by the club after an investigation that concluded in May, 2014. The matter has not been resolved by a plea bargain and is going to a tribunal hearing. Therefore, if the players are found guilty as charged, the "Essendon decision" should not be treated as analogous to the outcome of what happened at Cronulla. My likely result if the players are found guilty is anything between half a season to a full season and even that would not be consistent with some of the harsher penalties meted out to athletes around the world who also claimed to have been "duped" by unscrupulous coaches and support people. I also think your characterisation of those seeking harsh penalties as "ambulance chasers" is over the top. These people aren't arguing harsh penalties because they stand to gain a financial reward themselves (which is what ambulance chasers are all about) and while I agree with your sentiments about what should be the ultimate fate of the Bomber officials involved and the Essendon board on governance issues, you sound like something of an ambulance chaser yourself by your apparent definition in terms of those people.

It's probably worthwhile at this stage to take a look at Knightmare's latest power rankings*:- KNIGHTMARE 2014 DRAFT POWER RANKINGS: Best few on list quality 1. Christian Petracca (VIC Mid/Fwd) 2. Angus Brayshaw (VIC Mid) 3. Isaac Heeney (Syd Academy - NSW Mid) 4. Darcy Moore (Coll - F/S VIC KPF/KPD) 5. Patrick McCartin (VIC - KPF) 6. Reece McKenzie (VIC KPF) 7. Connor Blakely (WA Mid) 8. Peter Wright (VIC - KPF/Ruck) 9. Jarrod Pickett (WA Mid/Fwd) 10. Jake Lever (VIC KPD) 11. Jayden Laverde (VIC Util) 12. Kyle Langford (VIC Util) High level difference makers 13. Jack Steele (GWS - Academy - NSW Mid/Fwd) 14. Lachlan Weller (QLD Util) 15. Nakia Cockatoo (NT Util) 16. Hugh Goddard (VIC KPD/KPF) 17. Jordan De Goey (VIC Mid/Fwd) 18. Sam Durdin (SA KPD/KPF) 19. Jarrod Garlett (WA Mid) 20. Liam Duggan (VIC Util) Capable contributors 21. Connor Menadue (VIC Mid/Def) 22. Corey Ellis (VIC Util) 23. Caleb Marchbank (VIC KPD) 24. Oscar McDonald (VIC KPD) 25. Toby McLean (VIC Fwd/Mid) 26. Dean Gore (SA Mid/Fwd) 27. Alex Neal-Bullen (SA Mid) 28. Paul Ahern (VIC Mid/Fwd) 29. Billy Stretch (Melb F/S - SA Mid/Fwd) 30. Damien Cavka (VIC Mid/Fwd) 31. Peter Bampton (SA Mid) Best of the rest 32. Brayden Maynard (VIC Util) 33. Liam Dawson (Bris Academy - QLD Util) 34. Caleb Daniel (SA Mid/Fwd) 35. Josh Glenn (SA Util) 36. Tom Lamb (VIC Util) 37. Touk Miller (VIC Mid/Fwd) 38. Daniel McKenzie (VIC Def/Mid) 39.Harris Andrews (Bris Academy - QLD KPD/KPF) 40. Jeremy Finlayson (GWS Academy NSW KPD/KPF) 41. Jack Hiscox (Syd Academy - NSW Util) 42. Daniel Howe (VIC Util) 43. Clem Smith (WA - Util) 44. Edward Vickers-Willis (VIC Util) 45. Mason Cox (USA Ruck/KPF) 46. Conor McKenna (IRE Fwd) 47. Will Fordham (VIC Mid) 48. Brett Turner (SA Mid/Fwd) 49. Nic Newman (VIC Def) 50. Blaine Boekhurst (WA Util) The Next 10 51. Pat McKenna (VIC Fwd) 52.Billy Evans (VIC Mid/Fwd) 53. Brett Eddy (SA KPF) 54. Edward Langdon (VIC Fwd/Mid) 55.Nathan Drummond (VIC Mid/Def) 56.Brenden Abbott (WA Util) 57. Garrett McDonagh (VIC Def) 58. Billy Gowers (VIC Util) 59. Jaden McGrath (VIC Mid/Fwd) 60. Aidan Anderson (WA - Fwd) * for an early version of Knightmare's power rankings refer to the first page of this thread. *

For those who are suffering from draft fatigue (and there are quite a few around) this is good stuff ~ Easily the worst AFL Draft preview youll read

I'm curious. What exactly was the "Cronulla decision"?

Too right ... and to think that we didn't get Brad Sewell at the time when Ryan Ferguson knocked back the opportunity to go to the Hawks because they were a pack of duds.

Actually, the answer's on the cover of the Abbey Road album by the Beatles. You just need to look close enough.

No, I'm not as old as you are OD. An alarm went off next door and woke me up so I scanned the pages of Demonland to make sure that everything was good in the world while others slept.

I think people are getting too tied up in this entire scenario. Best thing is to go into a time capsule and come out in 52 hours time.

It's been mentioned around here before but does it work? Melbourne players to adopt radical paleo diet in 2015 AFL season

Quite.There is no doubt that records were kept and were either destroyed or removed from Essendon's possession. And while the coaching, medical and fitness staff must all be brought to account for this, the players are not without blame either for their part in this scandal. They have been the recipients of substantial amounts of information about the AFL's anti doping code and are aware of their responsibilities about what goes into their bodies. The evidence in the forthcoming tribunal will determine whether they are guilty of any breaches of that code and determine any sanctions. If found guilty, the interesting question will be whether they should benefit from the time elapsed between the beginning of the programme and the imposition of any penalty. I believe they should not because the delays have been brought about through the conduct of the club and officials including the issue of not being able to produce the records and then the subsequent Federal Court litigation. Incredibly, some of the major players in all this remain in control of the board, the senior coach and the medical officer. That's what really boggles the mind.

You didn't read the second part of the sentence you quoted.

The Saints would have to be rope-able if the news and the circumstances in Sam McClure's tweet have been leaked by a club insider. It's not a good look for the club to be taking pot shots at a high draft choice and, as I mentioned elsewhere it could also backfire badly on them. I don't believe the AFL would be happy about it either. The fact remains that for at least the past 6 to 8 weeks there's been a familiar tone in draft circles suggesting the Petracca will go at # 1 and he will be followed by Brayshaw. If the latest rumour is fact then we get both of them. I was just getting used to the thought of us getting Brayshaw and McCartin and now this. To have two strong mid sized players of this calibre coming onto the list really gives our midfield stocks a major boost and it's also a major game changer in terms of what the club will do with the two later picks at # 40 and 53. It would be interesting if Reece McKenzie was still available at 40.

Updated today but with no change to the Demons' group ~ Adelaide: Jonathon Beech (West Adelaide). Brisbane Lions: Nil. Carlton: Jason Tutt (Western Bulldogs). Collingwood: Tony Armstrong (Collingwood). Essendon: Charles Lill (Mount Lawley), Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti (Essendon VFL), Angus Milham (Essendon VFL). Fremantle: Tanner Smith (Fremantle). Geelong: Nil. Gold Coast: Greg Broughton (Gold Coast), Andrew Raines (Brisbane Lions). GWS: Nil. Hawthorn: Nil. Melbourne: Mitchell Gent (Casey), Edward Morris (Casey), James Munro (Casey), Bryce Rutherford (Casey), Luke Tapscott (Melbourne). North Melbourne: Cameron Delaney (North Melbourne), Max Warren (North Melbourne). Port Adelaide: Nil. Richmond: Matthew Arnot (Richmond). St Kilda: Cameron Banfield (Sandringham), Elliot le Grice (Sandringham), Shaun McKernan (Adelaide), Jack Noone (Sandringham), Kenny Ong (Sandringham), Jared Petrenko (Adelaide), Adam Schneider (St Kilda), Jeremy Taylor (Gold Coast). Sydney Swans: Nil. West Coast: Nil. Western Bulldogs: Brett Goodes (Western Bulldogs), Alex Greenwood (Western Bulldogs), Daniel Pearce (Western Bulldogs).

It turns out there was training today and bigfooty poster tasmanlvr was one of the few who braved the elements so I hope he doesn't mind:-

DRAFT ORDER 24/11/2014 1. St Kilda 2. Melbourne 3. Melbourne (free-agency compensation pick received for James Frawley) 4. Greater Western Sydney 5. Collingwood (received from Brisbane Lions in Dayne Beams trade) 6. Greater Western Sydney (received from Western Bulldogs in Ryan Griffen/Tom Boyd trade) 7. Greater Western Sydney (received from Carlton in Kristian Jaksch/Mark Whiley trade) 8. Gold Coast 9. Collingwood (the Magpies are committed to selecting father-son pick Darcy Moore) 10. Geelong (received from Adelaide in a trade of draft picks) 11. West Coast 12. Richmond 13. Fremantle 14. Adelaide (received from Geelong in a trade of draft picks) 15. Gold Coast (received from Geelong via a trade in 2012; originally received by the Cats as compensation for Gary Ablett) 16. North Melbourne 17. Essendon (received from Port Adelaide in Paddy Ryder trade) 18. Sydney Swans (the Swans are committed to selecting academy pick Isaac Heeney) 19. Carlton (received from GWS in Kristian Jaksch/Mark Whiley trade; traded to the Giants by Hawthorn in Jono O'Rourke trade) 20. Essendon (first selection moved to end of first round as part of supplements scandal penalty) 21. St Kilda (received from Geelong in Rhys Stanley trade; traded to the Cats by the Brisbane Lions in Allen Christensen trade; traded to the Lions by Greater Western Sydney in Joel Patfull trade; traded to the Giants by Gold Coast in 2012; traded to the Suns by the Brisbane Lions in 2010; originally received by the Lions as compensation for Jared Brennan) 22. St Kilda 23. Greater Western Sydney (received from Melbourne as part of Sam Frost deal) 24. Greater Western Sydney (the Giants are committed to selecting academy pick Jack Steele) 25. North Melbourne (received from Collingwood in Levi Greenwood trade; traded to the Magpies by the Brisbane Lions in Dayne Beams trade) 26. Western Bulldogs 27. Western Bulldogs (free-agency compensation pick received for Shaun Higgins) 28. Carlton 29. Gold Coast 30. Collingwood 31. Hawthorn (received from Crows in Kyle Cheney/Luke Lowden trade) 32. West Coast 33. Richmond 34. Fremantle 35. Adelaide (received from Geelong in a trade of draft picks) 36. North Melbourne 37. Sydney Swans (received from the Western Bulldogs in Shane Biggs trade; traded to the Dogs by the Bombers in Adam Cooney trade; traded to the Bombers by Port Adelaide in Paddy Ryder trade) 38. Sydney Swans (the Swans are committed to selecting academy pick Jack Hiscox 39. Western Bulldogs (received from the Sydney Swans in Shane Biggs trade; originally received by the Swans as a free-agency compensation pick received for Nick Malceski) 40. Melbourne (received from GWS in Sam Frost trade; traded to the Giants by Hawthorn in Jono O'Rourke trade) 41. St Kilda 42. Melbourne (the Demons are committed to selecting father-son pick Billy Stretch) 43. Adelaide (received from Hawthorn in Kyle Cheney/Luke Lowden trade; traded to the Hawks by Greater Western Sydney in Jono O'Rourke trade) 44. Brisbane Lions (the Lions are committed to selecting academy pick Liam Dawson) 45. Western Bulldogs 46. Western Bulldogs (received from Carlton for Liam Jones) 47. Geelong (received from Adelaide in a trade of draft picks; traded to the Crows by Hawthorn in Kyle Cheney/Luke Lowden trade; traded to the Hawks by Gold Coast in Mitch Hallahan trade) 48. Collingwood 49. Hawthorn (received from Gold Coast in Mitch Hallahan trade; traded to the Hawks by West Coast in 2013; traded to the Eagles by Collingwood in 2010; originally received by the Magpies as compensation for Josh Fraser) 50. Hawthorn (received from Crows as part of Kyle Cheney/Luke Lowden trade) 51. West Coast 52. Richmond 53. Melbourne (received from GWS in Sam Frost Trade; traded to the Demons by Essendon in Jonathan Giles trade) 54. Fremantle 55. Geelong 56. Port Adelaide 57. Sydney Swans 58. Adelaide ( received from Hawthorn in Kyle Cheney/Luke Lowden trade) 59. Geelong (received from St Kilda in Rhys Stanley trade) 60. Carlton (received from Melbourne in Jeff Garlett trade) 61. Brisbane Lions (the Lions are committed to selecting academy pick Harris Andrews) 62. Western Bulldogs (the Bulldogs are committed to selecting father-son pick Zaine Cordy) 63. Carlton 64. Gold Coast 65. Brisbane Lions (received from Collingwood in Dayne Beams trade) 66. West Coast 67. Richmond 68. Fremantle 69. Port Adelaide 70. Sydney Swans (the Swans are committed to selecting academy pick Abe Davis) 71. Carlton 72. Greater Western Sydney 73. Brisbane Lions 74. Gold Coast 75. Collingwood 76. West Coast (the Eagles are committed to taking father-son pick Alec Waterman with their final draft selection) 77. Richmond 78. Port Adelaide 79. Sydney Swans 80. Greater Western Sydney 81. Brisbane Lions 82. Carlton 83. Richmond 84. Port Adelaide 85. Greater Western Sydney (the Giants are committed to taking academy pick Jeremy Finlayson with their final draft selection) 86. Brisbane Lions (the Lions are committed to taking father-son pick Josh Clayton with their final draft selection) 87. Carlton

The personality side of things isn't really part of testing as such but those aspects are important in a club's due diligence. That said, the reports I've heard about Petracca have been complimentary in that he has great self-confidence and strength in the way he goes about things. If it's true that the Saints have really decided against him because his testing wasn't up to speed, it's poor of them to allow that view into the public domain and could backfire badly.

Just checking Christian Petracca's testing at the draft combine in view of claims that he didn't test up to pick # 1 standard. He featured in the top group in the beep test and the vertical standing jump. The knock on him was that he pulled out of the 3km time trial due to injury. Now, if he did a b/t of close to 15, I doubt that he would have many problems completing a handy 3k time so I conclude that the story about his testing not being up to scratch is wrong. Not just that but I'm wondering what's necessary to demonstrate a candidate has tested up to # 1 standard and what do you do with players who didn't test at all - McCartin anyone?

Tweet from Paige Cardona:-

Isn't this also a thread about a cheating low life (admittedly one about whose existence some are attempting to expunge from their minds)?

I suppose it will go on until there is a resolution one way or the other and the repercussions have been felt and assessed. I think it has a fair way to go.

In four days time it will be about five years since we called out the name of the little rat who gave rise to this thread. Surely, you're all sick of not speaking any T$ or B$ by now and it's time to close the thread down?