Vogon Poetry

12 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

That is fair appraisal

Its also fair actually to acknowledge that these two are particularly comparable.

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Lever is better than Oscar. 

I did.

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

^

I find it funny that posters play down the importance of an effective intercept player. Almost as though they have an easier job than a player who doesn't have the same intercept ability.

The fact that Lever is number 1 on the list as a key defender at the same age as O-Mac and similar games is mind blowing. 

Do supporters understand that intercept players also have opponents to play on too?

Hibberd is our best intercept player and sits at number 9 on that list and he's arguably now one of our most important players.

Imagine having a key defender version of him..

Steve, try not to confuse support for Oscar and others as criticism of Lever or an unwillingness to trade for him.

Lever is better than Oscar.  We know that.  But that doesn't support your view that Oscar is no good.

37 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

Those stats should be pinned on all threads discussing the quality of our key defenders.

Take note @binman and @Vogon Poetry

Steve you're become a bore.  Why should our key defenders take note when for the last 5 games key forwards haven't scored much against us.  Why not Jetta, Hibberd, Hunt, Vince and others that rotate through the backline?  Why not the midfield for not rolling back quicker and putting pressure on?

You're one of the individuals here who can only see things in black and white.  You're like the bloke in N12 who hurls abuse at the players all game except you do it here to our key backs.  You have a view and that's fine but it's not really based on fact and you've nailed yourself to the mast so you look at every opportunity to further your view.  Sadly your view is now worthless because it lacks any impartiality. 

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I'll be counting how many unforced errors both McDonald bros and Frost make that directly result in opposition scoring shots.

And remember this?  It was before the Adelaide game, you know, the team with the best attack in the competition.  They managed 9 goals against us at the Adelaide Oval.  Never saw your summary but assume the answer was nine.

Get a grip man, you're not doing yourself any favours with your constant attacks.  We all know the arguments, we'll all make our own judgements.  Shouting your view from the roof tops won't convince us and doesn't make your view more valid.  It just reeks of desperation.

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Interesting you say that yet you remain so confident Oscar will develop into a great key defender....

Oscar is the least mobile and slowest key defender we have. Hardly conducive to a zone defence.

Really?

I couldn't be bothered going back further but I've looked at the last 5 games.  In those five games (PA, NM, GWS, StK, Brisbane) Brown has kicked 4, Membery and Westoff 2 and no other tall has kicked more than one.

For all your posturing and desperation to keep the "Oscar is a dud" myth going the proof certainly doesn't seem to be in the pudding.

I'd love Lever, I'd love any elite talent and if elite talent chooses you then take it.  But the facts seem to be that our defence is in pretty good shape and opposition talls don't regularly get hold of us.

What are the ground conditions like KC?

11 minutes ago, Ben E said:

And, if that were to happen, that would be a great outcome for the club. For Lewis is as proud, ruthless and professional as they come and he will not surrender his spot in the team meekly.

I know what your saying but I'm not sure it would be a great outcome if he can't get a game.

It would mean we have a player that we don't need taking a spot on the lists, being paid and there for two years .  That would be a poor outcome for the club.

Just to clarify.  I don't mind that we've got him, I supported his recruitment, I don't think he's been a failure and I think he's been good at times. I just think he's not as good as many here think, he provides experience but not leadership and he's got a short shelf life.

Let's revisit in 10 months time.

11 hours ago, Ben E said:

We're going around in circles and semantics here. Leadership, experience, easily confused?! The bloke was next in line to be captain at HFC, and was admitted into the 6-man leadership group at MFC during his first pre-season at the club.

Anyway, at least we agree that MFC should have recruited him, that he was a decent pick-up and has had a good season. 

I'll leave my final words on this topic, which has been done to death, to Josh Mahoney. This is why we recruited Lewis, and his words have stood the test of time and will continue to do so, long after our own petty squabbles are etched in the ether:

 

General Manager of Football Josh Mahoney said Lewis brings leadership qualities and an elite AFL mindset to the Club.

“Jordan is a fierce competitor who is driven to win, and those are qualities that you can’t have enough of at our footy Club,” he said.  

“Clearly he is an elite AFL player and his footballing resume speaks for itself, but we also see Jordan as a leader who can play a major role in the development and mentoring of our younger players both on and off the field.

“We know we are still a very young team. We are projecting to have half of our best 22 under the age of 23 next season and that’s why bringing in a player of Jordan’s experience and calibre was important to us.

“He understands where we are at as a Club. He knows we have a considerable amount of work to do before becoming a consistent finals team, but the example he will set for our younger players will be invaluable for us.”

Ben E I understand mine is not a popular view, it wasn't popular when I negatively critiqued Lumumba either. I got that one right, along with Neeld, Schwab and McLardy well ahead of time.  I've got them wrong too like all of us.

I think the comments you've quoted were made about Lewis by Mahoney when we recruited him, before he'd done one training session.  Of course they are positive and I had exactly the same view.  I wonder what Mahoney thinks now and whether he shares any of the concerns I have.  He'll never tell you, as he shouldn't.

And for a bloke that was "next in line to be captain of the Hawks" Clarkson, arguably the best coach this century, didn't want him and let him go for a peppercorn.  What does that say ? Remember, Lewis was contracted and Hawks could simply have said "No".  They didn't.  Perhaps they knew something.

11 minutes ago, Ben E said:

As for your dismissing Lewis' leadership and off-field value as a supposition, well, I suggest you go to training and ask his teammates and his coaches or, better still, we all go to the B&F function and see and hear for ourselves!

I don't dismiss his leadership, I just don't think it's as profound as many make out. Leadership is not hitting a bloke behind play and missing 3 very valuable weeks.  That's just dumb.

I think Lewis provides experience more than leadership as he provides a cool head tight situations but that is a far cry from leadership although easily confused.

I'd follow Jones and Viney into battle but I'd be worried Lewis would pick and choose when he went.

1 hour ago, Ben E said:

Seems to me, VP, that you might be wrestling with some inner demons of your own (pardon the pun) on this non-issue, what with your personal dislike of Lewis set against the body of work that he has produced so far this season.

Forgive the paraphrasing, but I gather that the main thrust of your posts is this: Lewis is overrated both as a player and a leader, his sharp decline is fast-approaching (or, at least, faster than most of us think) and, therefore, we shouldn't have recruited him.

 

Is that about it?

 

If so, that sounds pretty black and white to me, with a bit of crystal ball gazing thrown in. But who gives a flying proverbial, right?! Time will tell, right and wrong, no place to hide, heavens above and all that jazz.

 

Here's a discussion point for you: with most of the home-and-away season now done - already Melbourne's best in 11 years - I'm interested to know what more Lewis has to do to persuade you (and your brethren!) that he has been, at the least, a decent pick-up by the club.

 

And here's another one - and I'm going out on a cyberspace limb here and peering into my own crystal ball, but what the hell: even if Lewis were not to play one more senior game for the next two years, would you consider his recruitment a success?

 

I would. Why? Because, to me, for that scenario to eventuate (unlikely as it is and barring injury, of course), a young up-and-coming Dees bull and leader, who would have benefited from the winning and ruthlessly professional attitude and ethos that Lewis brings to the club, would have to have prised - with every ounce of G&D and sheer bloody-mindedness - the old door off its proud and rusted-on hinges, to get to the point of demanding selection over such a player.

 

And, as it turns out, I for one look forward to that day, the sooner the better.

I'm  not wrestling with inner demons at all.  My response has been mainly to counterbalance the blind adoration that Lewis was receiving in his first clutch of games.  I didn't agree with that adoration and expressed a contrary view.

Your paraphrasing is correct bar the conclusion.  I've never said we shouldn't have recruited him.  Further I've never said he wasn't a decent pick up by the club. 

In private discussions with Old55 and a few others I expressed my disappointment with Lewis from the preseason on mainly because he wasn't meeting my expectations. I got no support.  I wanted a hard nosed contested ball inside mid with elite disposal skills and clean hands.  I also expected courage. That's what he was at Hawthorn.  But I felt in the preseason games and early on he was going through the motions.  He's an elite player - or was - but the attributes he showed at Hawthorn he didn't show for us.  He was shown up by players like Viney, Hunt, Hibberd, Jones and others for hardness at the ball, he had many possessions on the outside because we used him for his ball use and I can't remember him turning a game when others did.  I reckon he was largely going through the motions for much of the season.  He was lauded on here for his on field coaching and leadership which happen to be characteristics that can't be judged properly from the outside.  And his suspension and his unapologetic manner immediately afterwards was the opposite of leadership.

And to complete your questions I'd find it hard to consider his recruitment a success if he only played one of three paid years.  He's been good for us this year and I've acknowledged that but he's not been great.   I'd consider one in three paid years a poor return.  But of course you are of the view as are many others that his mere presence has had a huge benefit on our playing group that will benefit us in years to come.  I won't give him that credit because firstly it's supposition and secondly the behaviours I've seen don't support it.  For me his form and hardness in the last few games when we've got to the pointy end of the season just support my view that he was coasting early.  I don't want that example given to our players.

You many not have noticed but I don't usually join in with "general discussion" unless my view differs because I'm not interested in stating what has been said before and is the common view.  But on Lewis I differed so I expressed a view. 

54 minutes ago, Ben E said:

Don't worry, you'll get your gotcha moments, your "I told you so" moments, soon enough with his next fumble, missed handball, slight slip-up or whatever other supposed sign of terminal decline you wish to focus on and continually peddle.

I don't know if you include me in the "naysaying brethren" but what always amazes me about DL is the need to see issues as black and white.  STMJ says OMac is no good and refuses to recognize his very good form this year.  WYL says Salem should be traded for his lack of discipline on Saturday and hasn't seen the incident that led to that comment. Go figure.

I've recognized that Lewis has been best 22 from day one.  I've questioned his "on field coaching" role because unless your on the ground you don't know what was said by whom.  I saw Jones indicate for Lewis to go down back when Gawn went off so let's not pretend the rest of the team is incapable of making such a move.

But lets not ignore his shortcomings when recognizing his contribution.  He can't play a defensive role down back because he's too slow, he can only play as a spare.  He has fumbled a lot and he does go to ground.  He doesn't have the speed to find time to handball well when under pressure and does turn it over.  There was a clear instance of this on Sunday. He hasn't put his body on the line in past games as he did on Sunday and as Old55 says, he might be pacing himself.  If so that's a significant limitation and admission of his declining abilities.

And I don't rate his leadership as others do when he pots someone behind play and gets a three week suspension, you don't see Viney or Jones doing that. That suspension cost us one and arguably two games.  We could be competing for a top 4 spot if he (and Vince) hadn't shown a complete lack of leadership.

I think he'll struggle to play next year because the game is not going to get any slower.  There will be improvement from players like Stretch, Smith and Maynard who have not played regularly this year and Salem, Hogan, AVB and Watts are still to return.  Then of course you have the trading and draft period where we will try to improve our list as well.  The reality is Lewis will get worse while others will get better and at some point he isn't best 22.  I think that is likely to be early next year, others don't.  Why posters seem to think it's a competition to get it right I don't know.  As TGR says, time will tell.  And who gives a flying F if they're wrong anyway, there wouldn't be a person on this forum who hasn't "got it wrong".  It's a discussion point for heavens sake.

11 hours ago, Ben E said:

His incredibly brave acts in final qtr alone have hopefully put to bed some ridiculous commentary on here about him not going in hard enough. Arguably our best performer over the last month.

He was brave in the last quarter and was good all game.  But the commentary on him during the year has also been right, he hasn't done it much at all and the fact you've needed to highlight this actually proves the point.

And whilst I agree he's been close to our best player over the last month the fact people are talking about him firing up at "the pointy end of the year" is a pretty serious criticism.  You don't need to say that about the other players in the team and the reality is you need maximum output from all players all year. In effect what you're saying is he's been cruising until now and that isn't good.

But no argument about his value yesterday, he was very good.

As many know I've been a critic of Jordan Lewis this year but not yesterday.  The way he played yesterday was the way I hoped he'd play the season.  He had a go, he cracked in for the hard ball and he won important contests.  If he keeps that level up he'll be very valuable.

We'll never know but is it just that he's keen to play finals, did he get a rocket or is it just form fluctuation?  Well done Lewie, I thought yesterday you led by performance rather than reputation.

1 minute ago, jumbo returns said:

@Rhino Richards

You still here? Spruiking your bs likes?

Champion

It was a cheap shot Jumbo. 

Move on. 

4 hours ago, fndee said:

That is a ripper Luther. Thankyou.  It is difficult to explain to younger supporters how good Robbie was. Footballers today are full time professionals with unbelievable resources and support yet there is not a player running around in a Melbourne jumper at the moment who comes close to matching Flower’s skills. 

My favourite Robbie story relates to his first game.  He had to pay to get into the ground because the bloke on the gate didn't believe he was a player.

Dazzle you once said you didn't rate Robbie that highly but I hope these highlights give you a flavour of his skill.  Captained the Big V, says much from a team that was very ordinary at the time.

Have you seen the Salem incident?  Crisps wasn't facing Lewis as I recall. 

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It was a dumb act. 

But Salem lined up an opponent who had their head over the ball, that i consider far worse

What? Thanks fracturing a blokes face behind play?

42 minutes ago, hardtack said:

From my point of view, I believe that if we had not had the important player outs we have had this year, this thread would not have seen the light of day. 

In my view if Vince and Lewis hadn't got suspended for irresponsible behind the play infringements leading to suspension we'd be sitting on 48 points and comfortably in the 8 with wins over Freo (Lewis) and NM (Vince).

That it was from senior players makes it even more galling, that Lewis is touted as an on field leader and coach setting examples for younger players is inexplicable. If we miss the 8 it will sit directly on the head of these two.

On 05/08/2017 at 0:25 PM, KC from Casey said:

Hi VP. Barry is my old man and he, together with a few old codgers who used to frequent Beach Road Oval, taught me everything I know. 

Unfortunately, although he used to enjoy the odd drink (and there was always a plentiful supply flowing from the social club) his medical condition makes drinking even more hazardous for him than back in the day.

He and my mum, Mavis, reconciled a few years ago (after the accident he had with the lawn mower) and they upped stumps and retired to the Gold Coast where they live in a nice aged care facility not far from the Yatala prison where mum can visit her brothers.

The ground here has lots of memories but it's not like it was in the old days.

Sorry to hear of Barry's situation KC, wish him all the best from me.

As ever, appreciate your efforts as I did your Dad's. 

I gave up trying to pick the changes week to week but I'll make two points.

The first is if we are going to do any good in the finals we must have our best players playing and playing well.  So whilst someone like Watts has been disappointing he must stay in the team and find form.

Secondly I know JKH is not flavour of the month around here and I can see why but I thought he was far from our worst against NM and he just keeps racking them up at VFL level.  I don't take much notice of low 30's at VFL level but he's a regular 40+ player.  He can obviously win the ball and he has good skills.  His treatment will be interesting to see.

That's fantastic news, it gives him a season that he would otherwise have missed.  Given he's a player who hasn't come through the normal pathway he needs as much football as he can get.  Missing a season with an ACL would have been dreadful.

Great news in my book.

How many targets has Hibberd hit lately?

Hey KC, see if you can find Barry From Beech Road down there. 

Did the same sort of thing for us when MFC were with Sandy as you do now. 

If you see him buy him a beer, he loves one!?

28 minutes ago, Drunkn167 said:

Called it.

Reckon you might have had some inside info Drunkn!

2 hours ago, poita said:

I don't think he can be selected at senior level until he fixes this part of his game.

Better drop Hibberd then, 13 tackles for the season.

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Yep.. because thats how you come over. 

Yours is a an archaic attitude to recovery imho. You don't think the sports med folk wouldn't have this worked out. 

You would rush something ? 

There is nothing in my post saying he should be brought back before he's ready.  I was saying we should keep the season very much alive for him and give him incentive and hope, not shunt him off until next season as many suggested.