Vogon Poetry

I know what your saying but I'm not sure it would be a great outcome if he can't get a game. It would mean we have a player that we don't need taking a spot on the lists, being paid and there for two years . That would be a poor outcome for the club. Just to clarify. I don't mind that we've got him, I supported his recruitment, I don't think he's been a failure and I think he's been good at times. I just think he's not as good as many here think, he provides experience but not leadership and he's got a short shelf life. Let's revisit in 10 months time.

Ben E I understand mine is not a popular view, it wasn't popular when I negatively critiqued Lumumba either. I got that one right, along with Neeld, Schwab and McLardy well ahead of time. I've got them wrong too like all of us. I think the comments you've quoted were made about Lewis by Mahoney when we recruited him, before he'd done one training session. Of course they are positive and I had exactly the same view. I wonder what Mahoney thinks now and whether he shares any of the concerns I have. He'll never tell you, as he shouldn't. And for a bloke that was "next in line to be captain of the Hawks" Clarkson, arguably the best coach this century, didn't want him and let him go for a peppercorn. What does that say ? Remember, Lewis was contracted and Hawks could simply have said "No". They didn't. Perhaps they knew something.

I don't dismiss his leadership, I just don't think it's as profound as many make out. Leadership is not hitting a bloke behind play and missing 3 very valuable weeks. That's just dumb. I think Lewis provides experience more than leadership as he provides a cool head tight situations but that is a far cry from leadership although easily confused. I'd follow Jones and Viney into battle but I'd be worried Lewis would pick and choose when he went.

I'm not wrestling with inner demons at all. My response has been mainly to counterbalance the blind adoration that Lewis was receiving in his first clutch of games. I didn't agree with that adoration and expressed a contrary view. Your paraphrasing is correct bar the conclusion. I've never said we shouldn't have recruited him. Further I've never said he wasn't a decent pick up by the club. In private discussions with Old55 and a few others I expressed my disappointment with Lewis from the preseason on mainly because he wasn't meeting my expectations. I got no support. I wanted a hard nosed contested ball inside mid with elite disposal skills and clean hands. I also expected courage. That's what he was at Hawthorn. But I felt in the preseason games and early on he was going through the motions. He's an elite player - or was - but the attributes he showed at Hawthorn he didn't show for us. He was shown up by players like Viney, Hunt, Hibberd, Jones and others for hardness at the ball, he had many possessions on the outside because we used him for his ball use and I can't remember him turning a game when others did. I reckon he was largely going through the motions for much of the season. He was lauded on here for his on field coaching and leadership which happen to be characteristics that can't be judged properly from the outside. And his suspension and his unapologetic manner immediately afterwards was the opposite of leadership. And to complete your questions I'd find it hard to consider his recruitment a success if he only played one of three paid years. He's been good for us this year and I've acknowledged that but he's not been great. I'd consider one in three paid years a poor return. But of course you are of the view as are many others that his mere presence has had a huge benefit on our playing group that will benefit us in years to come. I won't give him that credit because firstly it's supposition and secondly the behaviours I've seen don't support it. For me his form and hardness in the last few games when we've got to the pointy end of the season just support my view that he was coasting early. I don't want that example given to our players. You many not have noticed but I don't usually join in with "general discussion" unless my view differs because I'm not interested in stating what has been said before and is the common view. But on Lewis I differed so I expressed a view.

I don't know if you include me in the "naysaying brethren" but what always amazes me about DL is the need to see issues as black and white. STMJ says OMac is no good and refuses to recognize his very good form this year. WYL says Salem should be traded for his lack of discipline on Saturday and hasn't seen the incident that led to that comment. Go figure. I've recognized that Lewis has been best 22 from day one. I've questioned his "on field coaching" role because unless your on the ground you don't know what was said by whom. I saw Jones indicate for Lewis to go down back when Gawn went off so let's not pretend the rest of the team is incapable of making such a move. But lets not ignore his shortcomings when recognizing his contribution. He can't play a defensive role down back because he's too slow, he can only play as a spare. He has fumbled a lot and he does go to ground. He doesn't have the speed to find time to handball well when under pressure and does turn it over. There was a clear instance of this on Sunday. He hasn't put his body on the line in past games as he did on Sunday and as Old55 says, he might be pacing himself. If so that's a significant limitation and admission of his declining abilities. And I don't rate his leadership as others do when he pots someone behind play and gets a three week suspension, you don't see Viney or Jones doing that. That suspension cost us one and arguably two games. We could be competing for a top 4 spot if he (and Vince) hadn't shown a complete lack of leadership. I think he'll struggle to play next year because the game is not going to get any slower. There will be improvement from players like Stretch, Smith and Maynard who have not played regularly this year and Salem, Hogan, AVB and Watts are still to return. Then of course you have the trading and draft period where we will try to improve our list as well. The reality is Lewis will get worse while others will get better and at some point he isn't best 22. I think that is likely to be early next year, others don't. Why posters seem to think it's a competition to get it right I don't know. As TGR says, time will tell. And who gives a flying F if they're wrong anyway, there wouldn't be a person on this forum who hasn't "got it wrong". It's a discussion point for heavens sake.

He was brave in the last quarter and was good all game. But the commentary on him during the year has also been right, he hasn't done it much at all and the fact you've needed to highlight this actually proves the point. And whilst I agree he's been close to our best player over the last month the fact people are talking about him firing up at "the pointy end of the year" is a pretty serious criticism. You don't need to say that about the other players in the team and the reality is you need maximum output from all players all year. In effect what you're saying is he's been cruising until now and that isn't good. But no argument about his value yesterday, he was very good.

My favourite Robbie story relates to his first game. He had to pay to get into the ground because the bloke on the gate didn't believe he was a player. Dazzle you once said you didn't rate Robbie that highly but I hope these highlights give you a flavour of his skill. Captained the Big V, says much from a team that was very ordinary at the time.

We are a middle ranked defence. We are 9th in the league for points against. But we've found a couple of stats that allow us to say we are the worst. We're not. And guess what. The usual suspects are using a few stats that relate to the whole backline to isolate Oscar and to a lesser degree Frost to again state their views. No mention of Jetta, Hibberd, Hunt, Salem, Lewis (our backline general and on field coach), Vince or anyone else who has played there. The problem is Oscar folks, you heard it here first. No mention of a midfield that isn't applying pressure, no talk of zones, just a couple of stats to freshen up the weekly Oscar attack. And the stats don't even relate directly to Oscar! Go figure. I like Oscar, much criticised here by many and I'm as confident he'll turn into a quality tall defender as the detractors say he won't. I think he's pretty good now and will get better. And just as STMJ is confident that Jnrmac's criticism of Oscar will fall on deaf ears I'm confidnet my position won't change one view. My main interest in the Oscar debate now is how many more ways his detractors will find to lay the blame for our failures on him even if their evidence doesn't relate to him.

St. Kilda didn't! Thank you Saints.

Last week you were suggesting Frost plus early picks for Lever and Jones. Your view was TMac wouldn't stay as a long term forward. You also thought Frost, Macs x 2 shouldn't play in the same back line because of their disposal skills. I thought it was an absolutely reasonable position to take although I didn't necessarily agree with all aspects of it. On the weekend we saw some really interesting performances. Has that caused you to rethink your views? My concern is that if we use our early picks to get the Lever deal done we are spending our leverage to improve an area we are well served so whilst we are better it's a high price to pay for the improvement. My view is we really need some class outside speed and I'd be searching for it far and wide. Kelly is an obvious one but I'm wondering if there are other options at other clubs. Does anyone have any ideas?

It won't be only money that attracts him. That will play a part but it will be one of the last things discussed. If he wants to come the money will take care of itself.

The debate/discussion between Binman and ProDee on how the Lever trade would impact our team is one of the best exchanges I've read on Demonland for some time. I didn't get involved then as they presented their views in a way that extra commentary was unnecessary. The weekend provided more fuzziness to any potential trade. Frost played an outstanding game and showed some fairly unique footy attributed for one player. Extreme athleticism and excellent footy skills. There were no glaring footy errors that I recall. Tommy Mac showed a level of competence and confidence forward that suggest maybe a permanent forward role is possible. Lever was outstanding after quarter time for Adelaide. What team wouldn't take him if he wanted to come. I don't shudder the way ProD does when any of our tall backs have the ball. I think Oscar's disposal is much better than represented here and whilst Frost doesn't have huge finesse he very effective and improving quickly. But having said that I love Lever but if he wanted to come it would be great but expensive. If he wants to come to Melbourne city (as with Fyfe and Kelly) it's difficult to understand why we wouldn't be a very desirable destination for all the reasons we know. ProD's suggestion is we attract Lever and Z Jones and use Frost as a trade plus draft picks and other garnish if appropriate. But given the recent performance of our talls and assuming that is maintained and improved (T Mac is new to forward play and Oscar and Frost are improve almost by the game) how important is Lever? Would the incremental benefit be worth the cost or should we look to use what we have to attract (say) Kelly? IMO he would provide what we don't have whereas Lever is just incrementally better. Did the weekends performances change anyone's views?

He goes to ground a lot trying to lay a tackle or compete for the ball. It's more a lung trying to make up for a lack of pace.

I didn't say it wasn't a good game, I just said it wasn't an influential one. And I'm a long way from expecting him to be one of our elites, believe me. You won't see anywhere that I've said he's not worth his spot in the team. I've said that many here overrate his influence and that he has a short shelf life. Interestingly now that I, along with a very few others, have questioned his football output there is a growing awareness of his footballing weaknesses. I'm projecting that he is closer to the end than many think. I don't rate his on field leadership as much as others but I fully accept that yesterday in the last minute he was very smart. I was one of the first to call out Lumumba and was roundly criticised for it. I might be right or I might be wrong with Lewis but his situation is similar to Trengove - he is slow by AFL standards and despite all the other attributes he has that is a deal breaker when it reaches a certain point.

Jordie was very smart in the last minute but was aided by some of the worst defence you're likely to see. How did Carlton not cover him? But his playing days are fast coming to an end. He struggles to keep up, he goes to ground, he doesn't apply pressure and he's losing his awareness and his elite disposal under pressure. Had it not been for his final 60 seconds it was just a game from Jordie and was secondary to players like Oliver, Petracca, Frost, Jetta, McDonald, ANB and a few others. It's indicative that his finest moment had nothing to do with footy skills. I still think that he'll struggle for a game next season, all the signs are there.

Come on Jordie today is the day, prove me wrong and rub my nose in it.

I hope you're right Don except he played through the middle on Friday after half time and couldn't get near it.

I certainly agree he's playing a more outside role. One could be excused for confusing it with self preservation.

He's had 22 tackles in 11 games. In 24 last year he had 100. It's not a flattering comparison.

Jordan put in another shocker on Friday with 16 disposals and a single tackle. He ripped out 5 contested possessions despite going into the midfield in the second half. Jetts, who plays a much more defensive game managed 8 contested possessions and 8 tackles in his 16 possession game. I note that when TGR started this thread the vast majority supported Jordie but now it seems with the prod of TGR's post many are starting to more strongly analyse his game and understand the limitation of his offering. Many are calling for his return to the midfield but he played there for much of Friday after Viney went down and had no impact. I think the reality is Jordie doesn't like our game style, he is remembering with fondness the open keepings off style Hawthorn played for years and the prospect of the manic running pressure game we play is something he isn't suited to. He doesn't look like he's bought into it for mine. After Friday nights game Pro suggested he is collecting his super and that he has been a bitter disappointment. I agree and have believed this for some time. After snotting Cripps behind play and fracturing his jaw which resulted in a 3 week holiday he was anything but apologetic. There was an arrogance about his dismissal of the criticism. Many admired him for it. Well this week push comes to shove. He's a four time premiership player, he was bought to the Club for his leadership and experience. He was second in Hawks B&F last year, he's demonstrated good footy this year in patches, he's got a three year contract guaranteeing him in excess of $1 million I'd imagine and now is his time. Rather than wave his arms round telling others what to do I want to see him lead by example. Tackles, chases, smothers, controlled aggression, clearances, contested possessions and a genuine impact on the game. His time is now to show he is genuinely invested in this club and not just talking to his financial advisor asking where to put the money whilst picking up easy kicks and telling others what to do.

Am I BB or are you referring to Bub? My argument was never that Lewis wasn't best 22, my argument was that DL gave him far too much credit for our success. I'm no Kane Cornes fan but he was dead right with his criticism. Lewis gave away a dumb 50m that cost us a goal and was then petulant when he walked over the mark. Minutes later he just shoved Petrie in the back. That is not leadership and it's not great on field coaching. Nut thinks he's a good on field coach and leader. I don't and Saturdays antics are more evidence. You don't see Jones or Viney doing the sort of stupid things Lewis does. When Lewis was voted into the leadership group he hadn't played a game for us and came with a great reputation. I'll be interested to see if he's in the leadership group next year now that the players have had a chance to see what he brings week in week out. I read the posts since Saturday with interest. I thought Saturday was one of Lewis's better games for us but it seems people are now picking up on his weaknesses. He looks like a player who has been there and done that so often that despite our excitement he is uninvolved. What did he say to Burgan after St.Kilda? "It's just a win Matt". He and we are coming from such completely places he just doesn't get it.

Yes, but we really don't know, we're just guessing working on limited material. We've just come to different conclusions.

Martin you've got your knickers in a knot for no reason. In my previous posts on the subject I said I think Lewis will struggle to maintain his spot in the team as early as next year. It's a footy forum for heavens sakes. It's where people discuss footy and their views. I'm not a "self appointed football pundit" but I like discussing issues. IMO it's pretty boring to make observations about the bleeding obvious (gosh we played well yesterday - that really adds to the forum doesn't it) and I'm much more interested in anticipating what might happens and how we plan for it.

Apologies, you said " McDonald (IMO) can point and direct all he likes - he is not the smartest footballer going around." There is only one "smartest" footballer and I don't think you intended to give the impression that Tom was the second smartest. It was a pointed comment and I think you're hiding behind semantics. It implied that regardless of how much Tom directs you don't rate it because you don't rate his footy smarts and his direction is of little or no value. What does that imply?

Yes he had 31 possessions and he contributed in other ways. I reckon every other player contributed in others ways as well. Why should Lewis be treated any differently. I'm not contending that he doesn't and hasn't added value and I'm not arguing against the trade. I'm contending he is not nearly as valuable as many here say and that he is fast coming to the end of his playing career, something others disagree with.