Rhino Richards

To win a premiership, a number of things would definitely need to go our way. One of the key components is the access to and development of talent. St Kilda should have made more of the talent but squandered it in other areas. That does not infer their recruitment was at fault. You need talent to win a premiership and alot of elements go into establishment of talent as stars including recruitment. 2003 draft year is proving to be wasteland and a disappointment for talent. The only star to emerge after 5 years of footy is Adam Cooney (pick 1). Isnt it important to have the opportunity to pick the best?? The rest are middle of the road and 2003 is clearly inferior to other years draft pools. Its unfortunate that MFC had two good dips in the 2003 for MOR talent. Asie from the years drafting in the top 10 is not about luck at all. Its about the identification of talent and the determination of the best choice by a good recruiter. Its not luck at the top. It is a lucky pool once you get to the end of the 2nd round though. Why compromise our access to choice the best talent in the country? If its a 2003 Cooney like situation then I want to have access to him. Also we have PSD pick #1. Given the lack of talent that usually falls to the PSD, I want to ensure MFC has access to it There is no tangible reason why we should rack up wins and jeopardise these outcomes. The Carlton or Bulldogs win did nothing for morale or spirit. However it cost us pick 18 in last years draft and given this year has meant our second round PP could have been a No 1 pick. We have already taken a hit to our list because of lost opportunities. You cant compare draft numbers between different years because it is clear that the level of talent in any year varies so much. As previously said 2003 was a bad year and Ray and Sylvia were picks 4 and 3 that year. Aaron Fiora was just bad recruiting. And its too early to rave on Palmer yet I think you have missed the big picture and dont understand how the system works. And I am sure you will be the first to bleat about recruiting when any bad performance arises.

I completely agree Rogue. Where we are at at this point of the year and given we are blooding a number of youngsters positives should be measured on more than just the scoreboard. I reckon WCE are a real risk ATM to us. If they get socked by 23 goals at home then they are in zip win country. And its game, set, match with Nudge.....straight sets. Through to the second round! Absolutely.

Not necessarily. But it clearly steps out what is and what is not acceptable if he wants to succeed at AFL level. Whether he is selfish or not is not the issue. The fact is he does it does and needs to break the habit. And its an attitude issue and he needs to change. This is not the first time and he would have a had chats about it before. I think it is now beyond a chat and he needs to be accountable for it.....for the sake of his career.

Agree Choko. I hope he makes up for lost time. He needs to perform.

Possibly your best effort in the thread so far. Yes do relax, Nudge. Your postering toward other posters beside myself rightly challenging the content of your "opinion" or "concept" is petulant and unnecessary. I only wish those supporters from other clubs that give you such validation were actually handling the deals for their clubs. What a win-win it would be From the looks of things here they dont post on Demonland. Keep working on the fine tuning of the "concept"

Bollocks. Williams drafted Hardwick and Pickett and got great mileage out of them when it mattered in September. Geelong were never soft. They were undisciplined and uncommitted. Players like Mooney, Johnson and Kelly all changed their attitude and attack on the ball. All at time on the outer. No one is throwing him on the scrapheap. Just making him accountable for choosing not to take a contest. Dunn's issue is one of choice of action. Skill issues are more often limitations in the players capability. Many of these skill issues can be worked on. Poor choices of action can become ingrained and hard to change as players mature. I do note your pet hate Bell is in the Sandy side at the moment.

If Cox had played 10 years ago I believe he would be a lift. But the role of a ruckman today has changed and their impact less than it was 5 to 10 years. Cox is a good player but his impact is not as significant as damaging midfielder. His type compliment a good midfielder but do not cover or replace it.

There has been a question mark about Dunns capacity to absorb and cope with the physical demands of AFL. Sunday's episodes did not diminish the question? Does Ablett lack courage today? No. Well maybe its something Dunn has to learn. Any player that forgoes or refuses to take their turn when it comes to the physical side of an AFL contest, lets the team down and sends a message to teammates and opposition that undermines the team's game. If you want to build a team capable of September success you need players that are totally and fully commitment to the contest. This Club has tolerated players for too long who have played AFL to their own standards and not the teams. If Bailey is serious about developing a serious team culture in the Club then its those actions that needs to be changed...quickly.

Most trades but not all trades. Trading is not the sole or major source of build a list. Drafting and developing players is going to do that. Trading can assist list management where for example a Club believes it is in the window of seriously challenging in finals and may seek the services of certain types of player who could address a list weakness for 2 or 3 years. Port Adelaide are perfect example of this with Pickett and Hardwick. But generally, trading is overrated and some of the posts on this thread particularly from the original author highlights how little grasp of the aspects of trading there is out there. Sausageboy, how many superstar for superstar trades go on and in most cases what would be the point for either Club doing such?

I think Hannibal is right on this one. Dunn needs to get that habit out of his system quicksmart.

333 you make alot of sense. If we got Warnock we should, if we can, trade Jamar for whatever we can get.

Sorry it is. OP is not the same as doing ACL. There is no set course or certainty of recovery. Its not how he recovers. Its the fact he has it and has not played for two years. If his value is diminished then we may as well get some value out of him here. IMO, trades are hard enough to do...period. OP kills value....period. Firstly, he was not playing the key defender roles that would be expected of him now. Secondly he has struggled on bigger forwards and does lack pace so it limits the types of forwards he can match up on. And thirdly and most importantly, the game has changed significantly in the last 3 years since he won the rising star. Its faster more punishing than before. For both forwards and backs the need for pace has never been greater with the mobilty demanded of players. Rivers lacks the pace and its compounded by not have played for two years. BTW, OP does not make you quicker in absence. I can just imagine the wheeling dealing with a player that is limited up back and has OP for two years. I notice you had not addressed my concerns about the Saints interest. No wonder. Psssst! Rivers is NQR primarily because he has OP. He is also limited in certain areas. I wish you were the negotiating party on the other side. MFC could do with winning a couple of absolute patsy deals. St K will want a 1st rounder for Kosi. I am not sure he is worth it and Rivers with his ailment wont deliver near it. You would be a fool. St Kilda amongst other things are S-L-O-W. I am sure they would be interested in a player that compliments their own pace style and his OP woulde be good to keep Luke Ball company!

Your first sentence holds. Why you have put such naive and silly trade suggestions is beyond comprehension and only magnifies your limitations rather than MFC's list. If you really wanted to discuss MFC deficiencies then why would you distract any discussion of this by repititively demonstrating how little you know about the whole trade process. This has got to be one of the most content light threads put forward in some time. A wiser author would have withdrawn from the discussion and realised the folly of his flawed arguments. You my friend went back and revised your orginal thread and repeated the same silly errors that only confirmed and illuminated your lack of substance in the debate. I guess when you have shot yourself in the foot so often such farce may bring forward humor of the thread ...at your expense.

I think you overlooked this. So far in most cases you have given up crap to the other party to obtain quality. Thats why its dumb. None of your trades need fine tuning because they all are fundamentally flawed or in the case of Petterd you are trading for trades sake. Warnock is out of contract, so he will either engineer a favoured trade with the Club he wants to go to or go to the PSD. If he wants to come to Melbourne then we should be winning the spoon and getting him to go through the PSD. If wants to go at market then if Cameron Wood is anything to go by then he is sub pick 20 easy.

I dont think you understand the basic concept of trading for a deal. Nor have you any nous for or done any meaningful research over other Clubs list to at least understand their needs or where they are at. Going by your "concept" Jace Bode for Jonathan Brown is a possibility.

He has OP DD for the past 2 years. That kills his market value....period. While a wonderful reader of the play, Rivers lacks pace and cannot play effectively on larger forwards. He is limited to the type of players he can take. FFS, potential their best player Luke Ball is crippled by OP so why would they hunt another? And given the rotten history of soft tissue injuries and major injuries to Maguire it beggars belief they would punt Kosi. If Ross Lyons is going to save his job he wont be trading for NQRs from bottom clubs. Adrian, you might have some mail on Prisnall. I dont know. However dont get carried away with the captaincy issue with Bruce. He is expendable for the right deal. But its unlikely Nudge will come close to nailing it!

Nudge if they are one side or lopsided deals, they wont happen and the proposed deals just look somewhere between silly and plain dumb. You are missing what the concept is about and pandering to the myths of the uninformed. If MFC rates Petterd so highly and has not had the chance to deliver why would MFC shoot him back to Qld. What is the obsession at thinking all Qlders want to go back? Assessment: Silly lacking logic Tippett is still contracted for another year (and Port) will not want him to go. If they did trade why would they chase an OP scarred, pedestrian footballer and off field issues. Assessment: Dumb Freo are going to go through one Mother of a clean out so why would they trade Warnock for a couple of over 25 NQRs from a bottom club. Richmond are in the hunt for him. Are they going to over Pettifer and Tivendale? If he is traded he will pull a first round pick or early second round pick. Assessment: Dumb Unless the kid is a first or second rounder then Geelong wont bat for Prisnall and they dont want Bruce... Assessment: Ditto The only people that overrate our list are people like you. The other 15 teams know how to rate us and there is not alot of currency there.

A common theme with trades often put up by posters is they 1) overrate the market value of Demon player(s) they are trading 2) over estimate the number of trades that will actually be done in trade week and 3) assume that other clubs are football dunces and would gladly trade away there talents to pick up an NQR from a bottom side and 4) because some clubs may be geographically far away posters think they actually have not clicked to the player's shortcomings that even posters here can pick up. Every trade put forward is balanced toward MFC against the other Club sometimes ridiculously. 1. Port would gladly give a fit marking key forward for a player with modified OP training program over the past 5 years who is just middling in league football. 2. Port will also gladly give an upcoming youngster for a six year NQR who cannot hold a position in a bottom club. 3. Pettard has had two injury stricken years and is rated as a player with real potential. He is a player with upside that will not translate at the draft table now. 4. Last year Carroll's name was tossed on the draft table and other teams sniggered. His game and his off field behaviour is known through out the AFL and he has "form" in WA. Why would a team with a marshmallow culture trade talent for culture sore? 5. Geelong will gladly trade an up and coming midfielder with good balance and disposal skills for 29yo who can win the ball but too often hacks the football by foot and hand. Bruce better years are behind him and Geelong wont stick their necks out. 6. Jared Rivers has had OP for the past 2 years and has no trade value. Kosi is limited but the Saints will want quality for him. They will commence a huge clean out at year end and why oh why would they chase an honest but limited running tall in Miller. Unless we are prepared to trade the few bits of silver on our list (eg McLean), MFC will struggle to get a meaningful trade (pick 20 or less) away this year.

No kidding! They must be hiding low at present especially those they pushed for pick 8, 4 years ago. If he is competing with Jamar for a role, he is definitely the back marker. If he is still competing with Jamar on the MFC list at the end of 2009, they are both finished. Granted he has 2 years on his contract but he may well convince people in 2 years what takes other players 3 to 4 years to do

He is contracted in 2009 he has got time to prove himself if he is good enough. At the moment he is not good enough. When you have 22 other mainly young players in the team who are struggling to be competitive and you have got another player who is barely cut the mustard in the VFL it makes a lie of other criteria. If we are trying to develop PJ as an AFL footballer why are we giving concessions to play a player who on form makes Weetra's selection this year seem reasonable. Big deal. Now that argument would really hurt the club. I am sure Heath Neville must be wording the HS up on that issue. If does not produce at this Club in 2 years,it will six years and 2 clubs where he has flunked. Adelaide must struggling with the argument you worry consider they also gave Hudson away in the same year. They must have thought they got a steal when they got pick 37 for him because they went for another ruckman with the pick. They knew what we were getting.

Those statements makes your comments in post # 50 in this thread seem rather ridiculous then.

Meesen makes Jamar look like a champion and Jamar cant cut it. I dont care about winning or losing. But if you are looking for irrefutable evidence, do you ever get to Sandy and see the Zebras play? I have seen Meesen on four occasions. He has done nothing, gets little of the ball and looks like he aint gonna have an impact on a match and guess what... he doesnt. He is struggling in the minnow league and gives no evidence that he has the calibre to go much further. I am happy to promote a guy if he shows at least some potential. I have seen little or nothing so far. He has two years on the list to show something. He needs to show he can compete at Sandy before I would waste a game.

Completely Agree. If Ablett sustains his current level over the next couple of years he will be in high company. Its feasible he could do it the way he is going.

Dont bet on it. There club culture has been destroyed by the Cousins and Co saga. Many of the players are playing on reputation and dont want to be there. Worsfold may not be around in 18 months. He has seen his blueprint based around Judd, Cousins and Kerr destroyed. He is part of the culture that tolerated it and they are paying the price. FWIW, I admired the WCE supporters who stayed to the end. They deserved better from their side. A 23 goal belting at home at Subiaco is astonishing. The players half hearted efforts make Stephen Milne look like a team player.

If he cant make an impact at repeated efforts at Sandy, I dont see the value of denying another player of a role. At present we have PJ and White in the rucks with Jamar as back up. Jamar cant cut it. But Meesen is inferior to Jamar.