Rhino Richards

Good summary Pants. He was never the same when he left MFC. Issues in his private life turned a creative, almost genius footballer into an angry bitter and nasty footballer who undermined his talent with a variety of questionable behavioural traits.

After four years under White, PJ is where he is. An NQR back up ruckman in a side screaming for rucking competency. Why not? Because he is not good enough to unseat Jamar who is at best a battler in the ruck. A ruckman is No2 because he is not good enough to be No 1..period. Often many sides often rotate a big man on/off the bench. Nothing different about the roles. Rubbish. If PJ was good enough he would have been first choice ruckman. Why have a "tall target up forward" when you have weakened an already brittle midfield. Even when used up forward, PJ had little impact. Miller had more impact under difficult circumstances. And on the basis of the greater game time for both Jamar and PJ it merely proved what was suspected all along. Both are limited and no wonder the Club is going out to get a capable bigman from Freo. Ruckman overrated? Its seems ours are on this site. As part of a successful side you need ruckman that if they cant dominate can consistently and regularly nullify the oppositions first use of the ball. They should be also able to use their frame to protect, block and provide passage for midfielders to contest and hopefully win the ball. Ours cant do that by a long shot.

Watson was a novice and failed. Voss is a novice and could easily go the same way. Spare us the favourite son routine as St Kilda knife their own as well as they knife others. Ask Ross Smith and Grant Thomas. Its the same at any Club. If the Lions perform poorly next year the heat will be right on the novice. I am not sure on what basis you think Voss will be better at managing than Watson. There is no evidence to suggest he is. In addition, there was a serious incident last year where Voss showed surprising immaturity in a situation that almost got him a criminal record.

Playing under another ruckman does not make you a better ruckman. One of the areas MFC has been appalling in is the ruckwork and big man area. The demise of White has only highlight how 3rd rate we are in this area as we are in many other areas. Both Jamar and PJ are significant NQRs. Its amazing how good a back up ruckman PJ that he cant crack as the No 1 ruckman against Jamar. As far as being a damaging part of the 22, I have yet to see PJ in any position he has been tried in put his stamp on any game. I have not seen him excel in any significant ruck contest where he has blunted an opposition ruck. We 3 and 19 this year and in some games hideously behind the pace of the opposition sides. He has a lot of nice to haves without excelling in any one of the areas he really needs to. You painting him up as Adam Goodes and unfortunately he aint. You know what I admire his work ethic. But then again I admired Simon Godfrey's work ethic and Nathan Brown's work ethic. Problem was it just does not cover or gloss over the deficiencies.

Because he was a novice It would be irrelevant if he were some else's bastard child let alone a favourite son of any Club. Neither Voss nor Watson had any firm AFL experience at Coaching at an assistant level although both had stellar AFL careers Your concern about managing the wider football group was one of Watson's major flaws..amongst others.

Agree...just like Tim Watson. Time will tell. Iwould not be blowing trumpets. For all he was as a player there is no guarantee he will make it as a Coach. He could end up a spud!

If we secure Warnock then we dont need to keep both Jamar and PJ. We should trade either one of them. I actually think PJ may have greater interest from other Clubs than Jamar. Third round at best. I am actually hoping Spnecer kicks on in the next year or so.

Good points Pants. The other issues is that Warnock wants to come home and also a career to be a front line ruckman. He cant do that at Carlton with Kruezer. Carlton are fishing for another experienced AFL player ATM. They have Judd and Fevola on big bickies. They will have to plan to pay players like Kruezer, Gibbs and Murphy more at their next contract review. I cannot see how they have scope to pay too much more than MFC would offer without puntcturing the salary cap.

I think your correction from inside to one paced is apt. We do need to correct the pace deficiency hopefully with skilled players. I think Moloney could be in jeopardy and I cant see why we need to elevate Valenti.

Oh dear, MFC is rattling the tin and your paying out the more expensive contracts. Gotcha. At best you could get a late second round pick at best for either Green or Bruce. I cant see why any of the teams you propose would want either or if they did offer any more.

We were a middle of rung side in 2006 like we were in 2004 and 2005. Our absence of class players is one of the reason we proceeded no further. It really amusing how you laud the ex coach's game plan when ND started ditching it in late 2006 realising it was not going to get that MFC any further. Now why would he do that. And you are right your skills do look better when you have got confidence. But Mo, even your fractured view of the game would have identified that we are playing a list so young and inexperience with alleged leaders like Neitz, White and Yze who's games have disappeared. No wonder there confidence is shot. And if you dont like the game plan Mo, what game plan would you suggest to make us "competitive" given you have said elsewhere that a premiership is not important. We also lacked leadership in 2006. It was a problem then. Its a greater problem now especially when the core of the team is U23 and the leaders you think so good just dont and cut it in AFL. I 'm not surprised you cant see that. Its more of the same. If a wingnut like you cant see the impact on a Club of an overthrow 2 CEO, 1 CFO, a complete Board turnover, a tin rattle to raise money for a Club strapped for resources where its very existent what hope do you have Mo? Mo we play reactive football because we have about 12 raw inexperienced players that have less than 40 games experience where we have a third world midfield that cant win contested possession. The outcome is not a design of the gameplan but a reflection of the state of the list. The players are under the pump against more experienced, stronger and more skilled opposition. Now how about that game plan we are waiting for? Once again its not the game plan but the outcome of the factors there in. Bailey will be judged over the longer term of coaching tenure by the results. However, it is widely recognised that he has taken a train wreck of a list and it going to take time to develop and educate kids how to play a proper brand of football. Does Bailey owe you money or has he dudded a member of your family? I am not sure why you have undertaken such a vindictive and shallow crusade against Bailey. And from the bile you have put up, clearly neither do you.

No it didn't. It meant the forward line was cleared out to allow Carey to play one on one within the forward line.

*Cough* Like Wayne Carey

Give the man a cigar!!!

I will ask again why would any club bother to chase a player like Bartram with NQR skills that a chronically underperforming club thinks wont make it. And if we a re trawling down to pick 50 why would either party bother? And why would you trade Frawley who could be of good value to MFC in the future in 2008 when there is no way you would get any upside for him? Re-read Goodvibes post.

You seriously overvalue NQRs and you overestimate the ability to do an effective trade during trade week.

So champ what game plan will suit an inexperienced, raw, slow, low skill team with little leadership, no "A" class players with poor disposal skills? I am still waiting for your alternative. The issue is you need star players to play any legitimate winning game plan. We dont have them period. Such players have to be drafted, developed and educated. This is what is happening now. However, such a process of educating younger players is being done in the backdrop of lack of experienced leaders and class players coupled with a disstablising period for the Club off field

As pointed out elsewhere, GC receive the priority picks in the 2010. How do players who have poor skills or get destroyed easily have trade value? Another poster said elsewhere they either make it here or nowhere. Why would other Clubs chase them? You chronically overvalue the players you desire to keep and if you can work a trade for Bode and Weetra, you should definitely and I mean definitely be in our recruiting team at the trade table. Both players are finished in the AFL. Seriously posters need to keep Goodvibes's six rules of trading before letting reality slip.

You are right Nasher. Bastardry at the trade table only screws you in the long run. While I also like the idea of scorching Freo for Warnock, I would prefer we approach this in good faith.

While I am not enamored with Bartram, what would a poorly performing player who struggles in a bottom side with diabolical disposal be worth on the market? Very little. His youth and his engine dont hide the fact to other Clubs that Bartram does not hurt you with the ball. He is a 3rd round pick at best.

:lol: I'm with you on this.

Too many posters here being spooked by shadows thinking WCE could possibly beat Geelong.

God bless both of them. Its a wonderful touch to a win and good on 'em for doing so. May they play "Its a grand old flag" often and regularly for years to come....starting next year!!!

White is finished regardless of what DB does. Warnock is no certainty until the deal is done. It aint done yet.

Not at WCE!