mo64

11 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

My Pies tragic mate tells me at the GF that he wants De Goey out and will be shattered if Grundy leaves. He says Dees will be the clear winners if we get Grundy.

Superior tap ruckman to max and far better below his knees. he says he's really a giant on-baller..

And would be a huge point of differenec for the Dees, and Max gets needed help. And allows Max around the ground which he excells at,

Just saying from a Pies fan who knows his team well.

No offence, but "grain of salt" is all I can take from that.

Your mate is thinking of the Grundy under Buckley, where their midfield (including Grundy) racked up huge possessions because they were indirect. Grundy's numbers dropped this year under McCrae before he got injured. His average marks was 2.5, the lowest since his 2nd season. He kicked 2 goals in 6 games. As a comparison, Darcy Cameron averaged 3.8 marks, and kicked 20 goals in 24 games.  Grundy obviously averaged more hitouts because he was the primary ruck, but Cameron shared the ruck duties with Cox, and they lost nothing in hitout numbers without Grundy. 

Give me a Darcy Cameron type as 2nd ruck to Max than Grundy every time.

And note, the Pies have beaten us the past 3 times without Grundy.

Ok, now that the season is done there's no reason why @Grand New Flag can't divulge the contracted key forward that we are allegedly in talks with. 

17 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Thanks for that @xman97 is this a direct way of interpreting it via how I assume the NBA works?

I am so naive in this area.

 

That's not how it works in the NBA. Refer above and Russell Westbrook.

5 minutes ago, xman97 said:

I'm sure most of you know, but going by a few comments, there's a few people on here that don't know how a salary dump works with trade value. These pick numbers are what I think, and are obviously up for debate, but the example of how salary dumps work is this.

Lets say the true value both clubs see Grundy is a Pick 21. (This is disregarding his salary, or any salary dump. This is just based on his age and ability etc).

IF Collingwood are paying $300k per year, it would mean that Pick 21 slides down to about 16.

IF Collingwood don't pay any of his salary, That Pick 21 slides up to about 35.

Lets say a team like North that have plenty of salary cap space. They would do the reverse on what we would be doing and paying all of Grundy's salary, which would mean Collingwood get a worse pick. Lets say Pick 35. 

The Pies need Grundy off their books in order to re-sign De Goey and get all their trade targets in. They see that as more desirable than keeping Grundy. That automatically decreases his true value significantly. You also haven't factored in that he's coming off 2 long term injuries, and the length of his contract, which is a negative.

By my reckoning, his true value is a Pick 40.

And no club in their right mind would take on Grundy's full contract and give up pick 35. The Pies would need to pony up a pick for that to happen.

If you want a comparison of what a salary dump should look like, Russell Westbrook at the LA Lakers is a classic case. He has won a league MVP and relatively his personal accomplishments exceed that of Grundy. But he's on a bad contract and is a bad on court fit for the Lakers. Other clubs are asking for 2 1st round picks to take Westbrook off the Lakers hands. Westbrooks perceived talent is not a consideration, and that's how the Grundy deal should be negotiated.

8 hours ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

There is no way Geelong rest players the way they did if they had a draw like ours.

How a team that finshed top 4 and in a prelim the year previous recieve such the softest of draws WC and Norf 2x and games at home in the back half of the year is absolutely criminal.

As good as they were all year they have been gifted this years Premiership, they just needed to manage and use squad depth at the right intervals in which they did.

Rubbish. WCE finished 9th in 2021, and no-one could have predicted their Covid/injury issues. We had 2 games against the 2021 2nd bottom team Collingwood, and we lost both. We only played the Grand Finalists once, and lost both.

We were 8-0 with games against NM and WCE coming up. We didn't take the opportunity to manage players. And we didn't take the opportunity to test our squad depth, and utilise Casey players in form.

We tried to replicate 2021 in all aspects, and failed. The Cats knew they had to change personnel and game style, and succeeded. To say they were gifted the Premiership is just sour grapes.

4 minutes ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

Sydney got absolutely bullied and smashed by the bigger bodies in the contest.

Up forward effectively Sydney played with Zero Key Forwards (Buddy finished), ( Reid Injured, injury prone and only plays well against MFC).

Their Forward line has been built on hybrids there tall stocks are unproven i.e Hickey, Reid, McDonald, Franklin (Finished).

The Bloods are a bunch of misfits who got put back in there place today.

The same bunch of misfits that beat us twice. 

Our tall forward stocks are in the same position as Sydney. Brown and T Mac (Passed it or injury prone) JVR (Unproven) Weid (Not up to it).

Just as we rely on Fritsch and Kossie for our goals, they rely on Heeney, Papley and Hayward.

7 minutes ago, pitmaster said:

This is so mistaken. We routinely did what Geelong did in the first quarter - won contested footy, won clearances, and won inside 50s, but we could not turn it into the sort of domination the Cats had with Hawkins, Stengle, Cameron, Smith all threatening to score. And they did it with Hawkins only 50% effective. Forwards matter and so does efficiency and that's where we have to make up ground.

Exactly. You need reward for effort, otherwise you keep the opposition in the contest.

A key forward and another damaging small forward is a must.

People saying we should pay based on the nett result are kidding themselves. I'm not in the Dodoro camp of getting every possible steak knife, but we are doing the Pies a favour, and that's how the trade should be negotiated.

Why should we be giving another flag contender a leg up? They've beaten us the past 3 times.

5 minutes ago, A F said:

Nah, the Demonland brains trust has all the relevant information at hand, so they'll know best.

I take it that you'll refrain from making negative comments about any trades, re-signings or delistings we make. The club always gets it right so we're not entitled to have a discussion about it's merit.

1 hour ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

Hits outs to advantage 2018-2021. You could argue that Grundy (who is the better tap ruckman of the two in my view) with Oliver, Trac, Viney underneath will be even more effective. You could also argue the combined of both will be significantly more impactful being they should be fresher when in there and at points against secondary rucks moreso than now. Hit outs to advantage are gold from a scores and territory viewpoint. 

2018 1st Gawn (400) 2nd Grundy (333) 3rd Goldstein (242)

2019 1st Grundy (294), 2nd Gawn (285) 3rd Witts (260)

2020 1st Grundy (166), 2nd Gawn (149) 3rd Naitanui (145)

2021 1st Natanui (270), 2nd Gawn (255) 4th Grundy (214) 

Really? West Coast finished 9th and Collingwood 17th. 

And Grundy had elite midfielders at Collingwood in Pendlebury, Adams, Treloar and Sidebottom from 2018-2020.

2 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

Always easier in hindsight.  If we rested players then do we actually win the games we played in and then do we actually make top 4.  It’s always easier to say if we did something different then the result may have been different but it’s so subjective.  Goody has so much faith in the group which is one of the reasons we won the flag and why all our guns have committed long-term.  

We finished the season 6-8 including scraping over the line against Carlton. We won games early in the year with 5 of our backline missing. We won a game with Gawn and Jackson missing. 

Goody's faith in the group to deliver his game-plan for the full 120 minutes was misguided, and the results showed against better teams. We were 0-5 against the other top 4 teams. 

4 minutes ago, Kent said:

Some on here mustn't watch the games

Jordon is a momentum killer extraordinaire.  Not only does he wait, walk back and then ignore free players he has never played on and has never hand balled to a player running past WE need offensive pressure and he doesn't provide it

At the moment he is a poor winger half back with great skills but no attacking footy nous.

BTW i agree with D4life Spargo is free a lot and is criminally ignored

At least that is something we should be able to fix

Spargo 10 goals in 24 games as a permanent forward. Of course it's everyone else's fault.

13 hours ago, Demons11 said:

Mate the VFL is so far inferior to the AFL.  If you changed the 11 injured players for VFL players we would have been beaten by 10 goals.  

You've missed the point. Not all 11 players got injured late in the season. Some like Trac and Brown were playing with injury for more than half a season. Surely a rest here and there wouldn't hurt. Despite having the pre-finals bye, our players looked physically spent during the finals.

47 minutes ago, D4Life said:

Agree.

I watch Jordan get the ball a fair amount, go back look for options, ignore options, then wait and surprise surprise kick it long into forward pocket.

if he kicked it to Charlie 3-4 of his possessions, then we’d end up with 3-4 much better possessions going int o our forward 50!

How is it that Jordon has no problem finding the ball, and yet it's his fault that Spargo can't accumulate possessions. Have you considered that Spargo is the problem?

11 minutes ago, Deefiant said:

Problem was we tried to play them through the injuries. Guessing it wouldve been:

Salem

Petrecca

Lever (ankle - had no turning circle/speed)

Gawn

Brown

Jackson

--- more guesses

Petty

Oliver

Kossie - Had strapping on his knee at times.

We all jumped on the Burgo mantra of playing through injury. The reality is we had a shortened pre-season, and players were training a couple of weeks after the flag. We shouldn't have tried to replicate 2021 in terms of player management.

We had a VFL team in extraordinary form, and yet we didn't avail ourselves of these players. Match committee preferred to play underdone players than fit and firing players like Chandler, Dunstan and JVR.

Hopefully this is one of the learnings that Goody is talking about.

4 hours ago, The Lobster Effect said:

He had the second interview yesterday. Nice to see him bring his Dees bag to it!

 

Looks like he's auditioning for Saturday Night Fever.

5 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

100% correct this year. There was such a disconnect between Max and our mids that it more often than not saw us losing the clearance battle when he was rucking.

I don’t want to win hit outs, I want us to win clearances as this is when we play our best football.

And it's not difficult for opposition coaches to plan against losing the hit out. Goody said it himself when we were without Gawn and Jackson for 1 game.

23 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

So that cancels out your argument as 'tidied up over the last two years' then.

If you want to go back to 2019, when he played 21 games, he averaged 2.7 turnovers per game. Over the last 2 years he's also averaged 2.7 turnovers per game. Not exactly a tidy up.

For comparison Salem averaged 3.4 turnovers per game this year. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

You mean when he's mostly played as a deep defender? He still turns it over nearly a third of the time he has it.

Across 2021 and 2022, he averaged nearly 3 times as many turnovers as he did in 2020. Not sure that counts as a tidy up.

He only played 6 games in 2020, and as a forward. Played 20 games in 2021/2022 as a defender. Nice try.

6 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Can't help but feel the opposite tbh. I thought he played some of his best footy of the year as a lockdown defender.

His disposal and decision making would cost us too much on turnovers on the wing.

The narrative of Hunt having poor disposal and decision making is overblown on Demonland. Over the past 2 years he has tidied up in both areas.

3 minutes ago, A F said:

We've offered Melksham and Hibberd deals though. You don't renege on those now.

And that seems to suggest we are not really in play for anyone other than Grundy. 

GNF was saying that we were in discussion with a big name contracted player. I doubt that's the case, or the discussions went nowhere.

5 minutes ago, A F said:

It's only considered a bad contract at 1mill though.

The bad part is the 5 years remaining on his contract for a player who has pretty much missed a whole year with consecutive long term injuries.

I could swallow getting Grundy if he had 2 years running on his contract, and demonstrated he had recovered from injury.

Would rather keep Hunt than accept a paltry compo pick. 

He offers pace in the backline which is important on offense and defence.

8 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

That’s for taking the full whack of Bowes salary.

The first round pick in the Grundy deal is is because of the dollars they will be paying. We would be the club getting better picks if we were taking the full Grundy salary. 

But if the Pies pay $300pa and receive a 1st round pick as many are suggesting, it's still totally disproportionate to paying Bowes full salary and receiving pick 7.

As Redleg said, Grundy is a salary dump by the Pies, and that's how we should perceive the trade. Giving up a 1st round pick of any kind is ludicrous.