A lack of fitness does not excuse an inability to kick, handball or tackle.

Maybe you can't run as hard or chase down as many opponents, but if you can't kick it has nothing to do with how many miles you ran in January.

On the other hand, given our love affair with running the boundary and over using the ball, it seems reasonable that we'd struggle without a decent fitness base.

ummm... no. U haven't had a run around for a while, have u?

Fatigue is one of the biggest causes for bad kicks, bad handballs and no tackles.

However our performances aren't all fatigue related though.

ummm... no. U haven't had a run around for a while, have u?

Fatigue is one of the biggest causes for bad kicks, bad handballs and no tackles.

So not being able to hit a target in the first quarter is the cause of fatigue?

Handballing to a teammate surrounded by 5 opponents is the cause of fatigue?

Fitness is extremely important, but it does not make up for a basic lack of skills and poor decision making.

I'm not suggesting that having many key players miss a chunk of pre-season is not going to affect our ability to run out games, but it certainly isn't the reason we are losing by well over 10 goals. To lose by that margin you need to play 4 poor quarter of football. Poor fitness usually causes late game fadeouts, or poor displays towards the end of each quarter. We're bad all the time, which is kind of a problem.

all i know is that baily was pumping up how well a few players such as isaac weetra and colin garland had been training before the season, and now look how much (or not much) they've contributed

It's pretty tough when your team is getting smashed.

That said, in the four games I've seen Weetra play this year (two pre-season + the two H&A games), I've not seen much to like.

Scoop I think the point is that even though we made the finals from 04-06 quite simply we were a fair way from being a contender.

Exactly.

Most on here severly over-rated us coming into 2007, regardless of our horror injury run.

To achieve success from Melbourne's position, it is necessary to bring in a complete sea change and that takes time. To understand that, you only had to watch St. Kilda overrun Carlton last night. The Saints have been learning their style of game for over a year under Ross Lyon and last night, they played a type of game that was not that dissimilar to the one that Melbourne is attempting to play - except that they got every split second decision right while the Demons get most of them wrong at the moment. When they finally get things right, they will have crossed the fine line that you need to cross in order to alter the pattern. At that point, the rat dies.

Following the Carlton match, I believe Lyon said that St. Kilda were still coming to terms with the game plan.

It's not easy to understand why we are where we are at the moment. I can't quite get my head around it. A team that performed well from 2004-2006, then had a horror run with injuries in 2007, to now being (at this point in time) uncompetitive with a style of football that is quite simply embarrassing.

Many point their fingers at the senior players, and rightly so. But whose fault is it? The players' fault for not living up to expectation and not improving enough? A lack of development from the coaching staff? The list management staff for keeping them on too long? It's hard to know.

I think a major reason for our current position has been a lack of understanding of our true position at particular points in time. Start with 2004 - top of the ladder after Rd 18. This is followed by a 12-goal loss to Port in Adelaide and is then followed by three consecutive losses and a subsequent elimination final defeat at the hands of Essendon. While it was a very disappointing end to the year, the side had made great progress since 2003. The drop-off at the end was somehwat forgotten amidst the joy at being back on track.

Halfway through 2005 the side was again dominating, sitting in 2nd spot. A loss at home to WCE wad followed by smashings at the hands of Brisbane and Port. Again the side fell in a heap. There was a minor recovery at the end of the year with close wins in our last three games before bombing out against the Cats in an elimination final. What this season should've taught us was that once again our senior players failed. After a year ago falling away, this should not have been allowed to happen again. At this point in time it would've been fair to start moving on the blokes who kept letting us down. Instead we stuck with them.

By Round 17 2006, the side was entrenched in the top four and looking the goods. Could we finally deliver? As in the previous two seasons, the team once again fell in a hole. A disastrous loss to Carlton (second loss to the Blues for the season) followed by one more win in the remaining four rounds. There was a good final win over the Saints (but remember, St Kilda led at three quarter time and had a bad run of injuries on the night) before losing the semi to Fremantle. Overall, reaching the semis was a good result, but from where we were at Round 17, it was disappointing. Again, for the third year in a row, the team fell in a hole.

Decisions then had to be made. Do we stick with the blokes who obviously had enough ability to make us a decent side but clearly not a premiership side or do we move them on? ND and CAC chose to go for the flag. A bold move but understandable in the circumstances. ND was crippled by injuries in 2007 and this killed his flag chances. But so too did the faith he showed in his senior players. They had let him down before and in 2007, despite the injuries, the team was pathetic and they let him down again.

Then we get to Bailey. New coach, new assistants, new footy manager, new everything. Another hard decision was there to be made - do we trade out the senior players who had let us down over a number of years or go with them again. We traded out one - TJ, but no one else. This was Bailey's first mistake. With all the new faces, a rebuild was on the cards. But we only did a partial rebuild, clearing only TJ. More should have gone. Again there was hope the senior players would lead the way in 2008. But it's now four years on since 2004, making them older, on the decline and even more flakier. Then some of these blokes make it into the leadership group!

It's really no surprise to see the team wilt in the first few games. The senior players have done it before, so why wouldn't it happen again? How many times over the years have we seen Melbourne collapse in games, drop the unloseable game and go on big losing streaks? Teams with quality senior players don't do this. Yet we were too slow to learn and are now paying the price.

Of course there are many other factors involved, like the fact we are being forced to play youngsters before they're ready in some cases and other youngsters with questionable abilities at senior level. This is inevitably going to result in some thumpings. But quite simply we've tolerated our senior players who have not been good enough for too long. This also impacts on the younger blokes as they are not getting the right leadership out on the ground.

At the very least, these thrashings may have finally reuslted in the message getting through. The senior blokes are not good enough to take us where we want to go. It's painful, it's embarrassing, it's difficult to watch and it's quite simply ridiculous. But bad decisions result in bad outcomes. Let's hope we can learn from it.

this is the best contribution I've seen. I'm getting angry about the criticism of Daniher. During the 2006 Finals I calculated that we had the 2nd youngest team playing in the finals.[W.C were younger--the premiers]We weree playing 6-7 players recruited in 2005 or 2006.
I dispute that we have a bad list and believe the effect of the 2007 injuries is still being felt. But we will fall apart completely unless we, the supporter base, hold firm in our support

I think we need to be patient. Before the match against Hawthorne, Dermie stated it takes 6-8 weeks to get use to a new styke of football, but I think it will takes us longer than that!

Only time, training and good recruiting will change the situation,

FYI, Moloney and Petterd did not play at Sandy, so they must have been injured !