I think you still miss the point. The fact of our midfield means we cannot be on the up. It is not possible. Failing to understand that means failing to understand how bad our midfield is!

Again - who doesn't recognise that our midfield is this bad?

We all do.

I think I'd argue that under Neeld the football department has been doing something about trying to catch up to the pack with the additional funds allocated for the extra coaches, and other specialists like Misson and Craig. I'm hoping that by the end of the year, or even next season that will see the club become more competitive within the football industry and on the field. I actually think we've fallen behind because of the change in the list and the lack of quality mids this team has had. The failed recruitment/development of guys like Gysberts and Morton, the misfortune of injuries to Trengove, the loss of Brock McLean due the path of the club (I wish we had him now!!!), the mishandling of Jnr McDonald etc etc, have I think lead to were we are now placed under Neeld.

If our midfield was reliant on McLean, Sylvia, Jones, (I've intentionally omitted Moloney from this list) a properly developed Gysberts/Morton, we would not be anywhere near as bad as we have been this season. We have gone backwards since Neeld started, but I think it's a culmination of things that have lead us there, and in many ways we needed to go backwards, and restart in certain areas in order to catch up long term.

However, as I said, I think we are doing something to rectify the failures of the past under the current group. New training standards, new recruitment team, new approach to football for the players, more money for the football department. I reckon we just need to wait another 6-12 months before we see the fruits of those efforts.

You make some very good points, although I do disagree on Brock. Unfortunately he is slower than most ruck men and certainly wouldn't help our lack of spread. Carlton have some very quick players who can help cover his lack of pace, we don't have that. He would also probably be tagged playing for us, he doesn't for Carlton when playing mid. Good taggers would be able to work off him easily, although one big plus would be releasing N.Jones. Brock has a go, but just watch a few Carlton games and see how many times he is left trailing metres behind his man in open play.

Ummm I actually think you are both saying the same thing, that is, that the fault for the state of the club shouldn't rest on Neeld alone, the only difference is that one of you are saying they believe that Neeld should shoulder some of the blame, the other is not.

You've both actually said that the problems also go deeper than Neeld. So you are only disagreeing on one point....

It is a pretty important difference though.