StKilda vs Melbourne Round 9, 2011 - Experience Stats

Apologies for the lateness. I'll try and get these up before the Carlton match once teams are in. Cheers fellow deminions B)

Average games played by Team

Saints - 108.32

Demons - 65.41

Average games played by category

0-49

Saints - 10.8 / 5 (average games/number of players)

Demons - 21.5 / 12

50-99

Saints - 81.0 / 5

Demons - 81.4 / 5

100+

Saints - 163.33 / 12

Demons - 142.6 / 5

Edited May 22, 201114 yr by Rusty Nails

Totally agree.

Often unmanned once the opposition loses possession. Such a poor disposal when under little pressure and a panic player when under medium pressure, the opposition are often happy to just let him run around racking up stats (when he's down back) as they know in most cases he'll just turn it over and they can play off him and spread for the receive and/or kick on goal.

Best to try close to goal for 3 - 4 weeks, where he MUST look to moving the ball forward ie., hand balling/short passing to a forward in a better position/lead or shooting for goal. Instead of automatically, without even looking up the field in most passages of play, passing/hand balling the ball backwards to an easy option in last line of defence or sideways to try the switch (usually poorly and too late putting his team mate under pressure) or when under pressure, panic hand balling (eg., to Chip today in one passage that ended up in another costly turnover/goal).

If he can't cope up forward as a crumber/goal kicker/applying forward pressure/turnovers etc , then best to trade while he still has some value out there IMO.

There is one other alternative where i'd like to see him given a further opportunity, but only up forward or maybe pushing into the middle on occasions, and that's under a new (top rated) coach. He just might be under instruction (with this auto backwards first option mode of play) when in defence. If so, what does this say about Bailey's coaching style/ability? Sorry, did Bails say something about, "we gotta take the game on" a few days ago?

And yes....he does try....real hard. Happy to give credit there. Davey could learn from that at least. Sadly i don't think he will.

Well said. I'm right with you.

Bartram has some up side with determination but his douwn side highlights the major problem on the backline. When the forward press is on against us, we are poor at getting out of it. When Bartram gets the easy mark (short passing), he looks but doesn't have the mind or skill to spot and execute a sharp pass quickly and forward to counter press and break through the press. He stops, counts to ten then picks the easy safest option side/backwards. This tightens the press. The side/backwards pass is short and so slow that we don't get a good 'switch to attack down the far wing. All his reasonable defensive work is lost. With this very poor downside of his game he becomes a liability on the backline. Considering that we usually have 2 or 3 other modest backline disposals we regularly remain under a tight press until the turn over. I believe we need to plan for a major overhaul of the backline.

Good luck to all the Bartram lovers, We all have our favourites, but the tough reality is you are turning a blind eye to a major problem we have and he's sadly a major cause of it.

Edited May 23, 201114 yr by Harrisonrules

StKilda vs Melbourne Round 9, 2011 - Experience Stats

Apologies for the lateness. I'll try and get these up before the Carlton match once teams are in. Cheers fellow deminions B)

Average games played by Team

Saints - 108.32

Demons - 65.41

Average games played by category

0-49

Saints - 10.8 / 5 (average games/number of players)

Demons - 21.5 / 12

50-99

Saints - 81.0 / 5

Demons - 81.4 / 5

100+

Saints - 163.33 / 12

Demons - 142.6 / 5

The problem is with your arguement is that it wasn't youth or the lack of game time that caused the problem. Every performance is measured against the opposition naturally but in the shadow of the other teams concurrent performance. Other young teams are progressing at a faster rate than we are

Well said. I'm right with you.

Bartram has some up side with determination but his douwn side highlights the major problem on the backline. When the forward press is on against us, we are poor at getting out of it. When Bartram gets the easy mark (short passing), he looks but doesn't have the mind or skill to spot and execute a sharp pass quickly and forward to counter press and break through the press. He stops, counts to ten then picks the easy safest option side/backwards. This tightens the press. The side/backwards pass is short and so slow that we don't get a good 'switch to attack down the far wing. All his reasonable defensive work is lost. With this very poor downside of his game he becomes a liability on the backline. Considering that we usually have 2 or 3 other modest backline disposals we regularly remain under a tight press until the turn over. I believe we need to plan for a major overhaul of the backline.

Good luck to all the Bartram lovers, We all have our favourites, but the tough reality is you are turning a blind eye to a major problem we have and he's sadly a major cause of it.

I think this is a good description of where some of our problems lie turnover wise down back and especially in the context of countering/handling the forward press.

I'm not sure he's the cause of our problems in dealing with the press/pressure down back. Maybe a part of our problems as a whole. Might also be under instruction too without quite being able to reach expectations on execution etc enough of the time (eg., effective disposal levels) and others he's trying to utilise might also be under performing their role to various degrees.

Not that we have a direct say i realise. Just a thought from a rank amateur....

Wondering what you think (and others here) about him in a forward role (or part time mid on occasions) where his first option in most cases would be to instinctively look for options forward (crumbs/goals/passes). Maybe pushing up into the mid field when needed.

I still think he gives us some grunt/run, something we lack a fair bit of at this point, and might be more valuable to us and himself in a different, somewhat more instinctive role, other than down back. Worth rolling the dice?

Edited May 23, 201114 yr by Rusty Nails

I think this is a good description of where some of our problems lie turnover wise down back and especially in the context of countering/handling the forward press.

I'm not sure he's the cause of our problems in dealing with the press/pressure down back. Maybe a part of our problems as a whole. Might also be under instruction too without quite being able to reach expectations on execution etc enough of the time (eg., effective disposal levels) and others he's trying to utilise might also be under performing their role to various degrees.

Not that we have a direct say i realise. Just a thought from a rank amateur....

From another "rank amateur", I think this is what encapsulates our problem.

The forward press is such a successful strategy because it's so hard to beat. Good teams who manage to beat it do so because they are just that - good teams! They beat the press by using team strategies that have been thought through and planned beforehand, and everybody involved (which may be the whole team) knows exactly what they're supposed to do, where they're supposed to run, who blocks and who carries and so forth. Even with this, you'll still give up some goals, but with a team strategy (or strategies) the odds are that you'll clear it more often than if you didn't.

Good teams are also using long kicking as a major weapon this year to beat presses & zones, but it's not just blindly belting the leather off the ball. It's kicking to where they've planned & structured to kick it.

We don't have any team strategies & structures for anything. Instead, we blame someone like Bartram (or Grimes or Warnock or whoever) because they can't beat a forward press as an individual. In a team that plays as a team, individuals aren't expected to try to beat a forward press on their own - if they try to, they might be dragged for taking such a risk. If we have a team strategy, then as soon as Bartram (or whoever) wins the ball in a certain place in defence, he knows immediately where is the best place to kick it which will have least chance of leaking a goal, and maybe he knows one or two other pre-planned options that he could take if the opportunity arises.

I think it's time to stop blaming individuals for turning the ball over in difficult situations that have been created by the other team with the express purpose in mind of trying to maximise the chance of a costly turnover. We should start blaming the lack of team strategies & structures that ensures that we give up more than 2/3 of the opposition's score through turnovers.

And countering the forward press is just one example where a team strategy is needed. Others might include opposition kick-outs, centre bounces & stoppages, and (dare I say it) beating a hard tag. Good teams have team strategies for all these situations and more, they don't expect individuals to get it right by themselves on the spur of the moment and under pressure.

Fair points Akum and well constructed.

Interesting read mate. I guess we need improvements in so many areas in this regard eh. Lots more work to do for the FD and the boys

Lets hope they can find a way