The Chazz

And there it is... http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-11-11/jobe-watson-hands-back-2012-brownlow-medal Watch how he will be treated as some kind of hero now. Will be sickening.

Presumably for the better for us. Which would then validate my thinking of not upgrading the two rookies this year.

See bolded part above, Stuart. Again, go and annoy someone else.

We currently have 1 spare spot on our list. If Dunn leaves that leaves us with one other list change that we must make to go to the draft. Presumably this would be Dawes. If that's the case, we have 3 "live" picks, currently 57, 59 and 84. If we upgrade both Wagner and Smith, it means we are using Pick 59 on one of them. I personally would rather give Taylor a crack at a "speculative potential" player at 59, rather than looking for something in the rookie draft.

I'm certain that many people were saying last year that the 2016 draft was going to be a super draft.

See bolded above Stuart... Now go and annoy someone else.

No, we differ on list management ideas. For a start, trade period hasn't finished, so I will reassess our draft strategy when I know what the final draft order will be. I expect our draft order to change in some shape over the next 24 hours. I also know that 12 months is a long time in football, and that upgrading Smith now, who is relatively a project player that has been in the system for 12 months, and Wagner, who has definitely shown "something" but let's see him do it again next year.

There will still be plenty of opportunity to use our "better" picks of kids next year, as well as having space at the back end of the draft to use on upgrading.

That's entirely possible, but we don't need to upgrade them this year, so leave them where they are.

Why the rush to upgrade the rookies?

How? Hibberd is worth a 2nd rounder, which we used, then upgraded our pick 68 by 11 spots. Think it was a fair deal all round to be honest.

Considering the "experts" had us just doing a straight 29 for player, I think I'm by far the nearest to the pin. Thanks for your encouragement though, Seraph!

I was close!

With the Lewis deal done, and us now knowing what picks we have now got, I wonder if we are offering Pick 29 and 68 for Hibberd and 41. Would give us our first pick at 41, but our 2nd pick at 57.

Most players are doing work experience in some capacity, GNF. I wouldn't read in to that part too much.

Stuie, very readable post, thank you. Seriously though, has your account been hacked?

Oh, I didn't realise you wanted my opinion, you didn't actually ask. My view is that while our defence has leaked a lot of easy goals, I think given they are trying to get used to the balance of attack and defend, they are doing a great job. Due to the outs (experience) that I've previously mentioned, I think that the younger players, in particular Wagner and Hunt, are going well. I don't think having an experience "gulf" is a negative for these guys, mainly because it appears that even for the experienced guys that have managed to get on the park, that they are struggling with the new game plan too. I think our disposal coming out of the backline has been the best it's been for a long time. Obviously still has a lot of work needed, but generally, I don't cringe when our HBF kick it out, especially when comparing it to the days when Grimes was down there. On the leaking of goals, it's amazing to think that while sometimes it's like we have NFI down back, we are only 8 points worse off YTD. Truth be known, we will actually have conceded less points than last year after this week's game. If I had to choose one or the other, I would say our backline hasn't gone backwards this year. Further to that, the fact we can see the type of footy we want to play is a massive improvement compared to previous years. Their best has been excellent, but the gap between great and pus is still too wide. This will change with more games and development of players playing under a "new" game plan. It has to be mentioned though that when our defenders have looked ordinary at best, it has generally been on the back of our midfield getting a touch up. Do we invest more in to strengthening the midfield, so that it helps out backline? Finals this year is highly unlikely, but we can't lay total blame on our lack of experience in the back half. What I am satisfied with is that we've been able to let our long-term defenders learn in the seniors, without it being too much of a burden on the rest of the team. This experience/development will prove invaluable.

How can I agree or disagree? This was my original point. You obviously believe it has gone backwards but you're arguing a point that can't be proven. Further, you are arguing that because we lack experience in the backline, it's having an impact (which has to be negative) on the development of players. I'm amazed that you don't barrack for Collingwood, given your fetish for things to be black and white. There's far too many variables with this topic, but as usual, you struggle to have a civilised discussion about a topic where there is more than one right answer.

So you're not saying our backline has gone backwards? What are you saying then? It has improved? It has stagnated? You are making it sound like the only development a player gets is during a game (be it at Senior or Reserves level). Do you not think a big part of a younger player's development happens during the week also? The lack of onfield, game day experience is well and truly being made up for by the offield development. Roos/Goodwin knows that providing H & Melksham can get a solid crack at it in 2017, that they will instantly add 337 games of experience in to it. I'm all for adding quality to our team, but I don't think it's as drastic as what some are claiming. Again, at the start of 2016, Roos would've been expecting H, Melksham and Garland to provide this experience you desire. Between the 3 of them they average 166 games each. That's a lot of experience that will hopefully be injected Round 1, 2017. (I would love to inject Hurley in to that group).

Roos can't control a lack of senior players when they get suspended for the season (Melksham), receive concussion that puts them out indefinitely (H), or sees them in and out of the team due to injury/form (Garland, who is also part of the LG). I'm sure having those players this season would've assisted in the development of Frost, OMc and Wagner. And perhaps Roos rates the current type of development, i.e. playing in the seniors, a lot better than having some our other senior players in the team (i.e. Dunn) playing along side them. I'm sure you still believe we have gone backwards, but as I said, your definition and Roos' definition would be poles apart.

Stuie, I think it depends on what your definition of "improved" and "biggest weakness" is, then how this compares to those that have more idea than you and I (i.e. Roos). I think you will find that Roos is satisfied with our defence, even though it looks that we've taken one step forward and two steps back. We, the outsiders, often have a very simplistic view when it comes to this sort of stuff. We're entitled to, as we are the ones that they ask to make financial contributions to the club. Most of us are over the mediocrity of the past decade (or even longer for some), so are looking for instant results. Roos was never about instant results, but he is setting up the team so that Goodwin is.

In response to... a) Yes, I'm sick of not playing finals, hence my annoyance that we are still getting excited about top picks b) We did actually trade up to pick 3, so we are making progress c) I would not be picking any of this year's draft picks in our top 25 The fact we haven't played finals for 10 years, yet we are still relying on this year's top draft pick to help take us there, probably proves my point. I'm over the amount of years it's taking us to build through the draft. All due respect to Clayton Oliver but we should've had our "top draft pick" fill 2 years ago minimum. I don't apologise for my patience wearing thin.

Here's a tip Billy, Hawthorn and Geelong see action in September because of what they did in November many years ago. I know that Clint. I'm hoping that what we did in November of 2012/13/14 is what will cause our premiership tilt. The fact that some are STILL interested in our drafting is basically admitting we still have that "saviour" mentality. We should have enough young talent on our list by now (prior to this year's draft) to be looking not too distant in the future for success. That said, the FD obviously believe that we still needed top end talent from this year's draft before we can stop relying on the pointy end of the draft. This is proven by trading our 1st round pick from next year away. Perhaps next year others will stop obsessing about our draft picks.

Haven't read many of the posts on this thread, but this year's draft selections have left me quite uninspired. Not sure why, maybe the talk of it being a shallow draft, and in Oliver's case, that he was deemed a bolter by some people. To be honest, I think I'm just over frothing about high draft picks, and just want us to bloody win games of footy. I work with Hawthorn and Geelong supporters - for the past decade they have no idea who their teams have drafted, their real season starts in the following March, and generally concludes late September. It's generally the only time they take interest in footy. We have become far to obsessed with the silly season that takes place at draft time. I know it's not as black and white as that, but I can't help feeling a bit "Meh" about our picks this year. Sorry!

Welcome Jake - hope you're not allergic to leather... Edit - because he will be the new DL whipping boy. Nothing to do with touching the footy, or ideas BBO has for you...