stevethemanjordan

I don't interpret it that way. Meeting with an opposing club's officials and players as leverage to get a better deal with your current club seems a bit extreme. You can do that by simply holding off signing until you're satisfied with an offer from your current club. Clearly he is considering a move if what's reported is true. And if it happens, i'll be in heaven.

It's not Sat-man, look at the positives in life. Relax. As for your footy IQ comment, I agree that you'd expect those youngsters to improve in that regard. But by how much? Not all players are blessed with that attribute as a natural ability so I think it's foolish to expect that they'll reach any great heights in that aspect of the game. Generally, high footy IQ is something players possess before they come into the system. Yeh you'd expect Frost, Oscar and Jayden to make less errors during games the more experience they gain. But they'll never be high IQ footballers.

A perfect example of our lack of footy IQ in our defence is clearly seen within the last 40 seconds of the match. Hunt goes in one-hundred miles an hour for a ground ball in the middle only to be beaten to it by Gibson. Hunt both misses the ball and then more importantly the tackle. Low footy IQ move at that time of the game. Then have a look at the next play and where the ball ends up. We have Oscar zoning what? Absolutely nothing. He has zero awareness that Cunnington has crept forward and ends up taking an uncontested mark. The entire idea of zoning is to eat-up the space so that uncontested marking options aren't so easily identifiable. Oscar is standing way too close to Jetta when this play unfolds and is just generally clueless about how much space he has left on his right side. Jetta, Salem and Hibberd are our only high IQ defenders. Hunt has some great attributes but isn't a composed footballer. Oscar and Frost do things that are unfathomable. Therein lies the problem. Solid defence and zonal pressure comes from high IQ footballers.

The problem is absolutely simple. We are playing two under-developed, under-performing and inexperienced key defenders in Frost and Oscar for two reasons: 1 - Injuries this year. Our best and most experienced key defender has been playing forward for the obvious reasons and another senior defender in Colin Garland was hit by a season-ending knee injury in pre-season which hasn't helped in regards to players needing to perform at their best to retain their position. In this case, our key defenders. 2 - The footy department took an enormous gamble over the off-season in my eyes, in both not providing a like-for-like replacement for Lynden Dunn and not providing enough cover for injuries. I called for us to bring in a mature-aged key defender to provide stability, depth and room for both Oscar and Frost to develop at VFL level. Whilst I complain about Oscar's form, I can see quite obviously that it's the football department to blame for the predicament that we're in. And it frustrates me to no end. I've said it numerous times but it's completely circumstantial that Oscar and Frost are playing AFL football weekly at the moment. No other team with key defender depth and quality would be playing them as regularly as we are. It was a mistake that falls at the feet of the FD and clearly they know it given we're chasing Lever hard. A player who is the same age and games experience as Oscar. Oscar and Frost might well become AFL standard key defenders although I have my doubts. They're missing way too many key ingredients presently and it's my view that with every game we go in to carrying both of them, the risk of us conceding easy goals is increased.

Agree whole-heartedly but your observations will be falling upon deaf ears. The 'improvement levels' of Frost and Oscar are both hugely exaggerated on this forum. I saw a first gamer today play for Adelaide who showed greater attribute diversity in his first game than Oscar has in his latest. Speed, intensity, decision making, spoiling ability. Oscar and Frost are both just really average and limited players presently. And that's really all I care about. Clearly we need better quality and experienced key posts if we're to take another step.

Oh yeh now I see. Oscar is also in there to the side somewhere. Doing something. Something like, good.. I don't know what, but it's good. Edit * (Jokes everyone, relax).

Lol. In no way, shape or form did he even remotely suggest he'd be going anywhere next year and his body language similarly gave absolutely nothing away. What on earth were you watching?

^ Oath. I think the majority of demonlanders don't really get how good this bloke is. He is by far the best young key defender in the game. And he will no doubt reach Rance's level providing he stays injury free. Please don't provide Oscar/Lever stats, I'll only laugh at them.

Lol. Take them red and blue glasses off m8.

There's a propensity for supporters to think that there's more scope for improvement for athlete type-footballers like Frost. Which is something I don't necessarily buy into once they're in an AFL system. I value football-specific skills above all else at AFL level and I firmly believe that players like Frost who come into the system with questionable football-specific skills will only ever be able to improve them marginally. The areas of improvement I've seen with him this year are in the strengths he already has as a player, most of which being physical attributes rather than football-specific ones. His ability to to break lines and his confidence in doing so, his speed, strength etc. His marking and understanding of when to go for a mark has improved and that's about the only footy-specific skill that I've seen genuine improvement in. That being said, he still drops marks that shouldn't be dropped at this level. What I haven't seen an improvement in, is in his ability to completely iron-out patterns of play or acts that are unacceptable and shouldn't be seen at this level. And it's those things that prove to me that he'll never be a complete player nor will he improve those areas of his game enough. The only thing he can do to avoid committing those kinds of game-changing errors is to play strictly within his limits of ability. The evidence is everywhere. The double fumble we saw against Adelaide. His failed attempt at breaking past two opponents when he had two team-mates free 5-10 metres ahead wanting a handball. That decision making process or lack of awareness was unbelievable at that moment. These are only two examples but I don't think people realise, that kind of [censored] rarely happened even in A-grade Amo's when I played. I don't see other players committing the same kinds of acts that he does. As I've said, if we had a really strong key position backman plus Tom McDonald and one of Frost or O-Mac, then things would be different and he would be able to play a much more refined role. That's what I continue to hope for when I look to next year.

Richmond have players of similar nature. So x a billion for them also. Maybe more.

If Frost consistently played within his obvious limitations, he would be good. He doesn't, so his contribution is questionable in my eyes. A catostrophic error resulting in an opposition goal is nearly always around the corner. And in a final, moments like that are amplified x 1 million.

It's a new thing. And I'm a changed man now.

Nah, I like it a lot. He didn't have much of an impact in his one and only Vic Metro game, but some of what I saw at TAC cup level was pretty special. As Pennant says, I reckon he's the type of player that will benefit enormously from an AFL club enviro given his untapped potential. He and Trac in the same forward-line would certainly trigger a trouser-murmur.

I reckon his ball-use isn't as bad as some seem to think. And I am ultra-critical when it comes to ball-use.

I've seen him in the flesh a few times and some of the attributes that he possesses and has displayed in games are in the elite bracket. His speed, ball-handling, leap, contested marking for his size and awareness set him apart and you're just drawn to him. Reminds me of Robbie Gray with some of the things he does. Probably with more explosive power though. He's never really had huge possession numbers given he plays forward a lot and he can definitely drift in and out of games. But keep in mind he was a basketball star and that was his number one sport up until recently so his exposure to these elite teams is limited. I also like that he's not afraid of the contest which is a huge positive for a player with his skill-set. So much untapped potential, I reckon he'll be a steal whoever manages to land him.

I could only rate the players that I've watched live and keep in mind that's not every TAC Cup side. I've seen Eastern, Northern, Sandy, Gippsland a few times so have a better grasp on individuals from these sides. Chargers, Falcons, Rebels and Bushies once. When I saw the falcons, most of their stars were playing state footy that weekend so can't comment on Ling. Two players who didn't happen to play state footy in every game are Trent Mynott from Eastern and Jack Petruccelle from Northern. Those two both impressed me and Petruccelle especially had some incredible moments at tac cup level. Both will probably be second-rounders but I'd love either of them at the club as players who have gone under the radar a bit. Garner and Coffield could certainly be gettable at around our picks. Depends what we're after though and who's available.

Have been going to Tac cup games this year for reasons I won't specify. (May or may not be to do with the club) *cough* Happy to shed some light on any players in question.

Haven't mentioned this but Lever's brother has been playing in the Crows SANFL development team this year I'm pretty sure. I don't really know what that means but it may work against the thought of a move south. It also may not. Dees.

I genuinely have no idea what you're on about. My point was pretty clear cut.

Nice points. It's still possible to obtain class without needing super high draft picks thanks to free agency and trading. IMO, what's most important for us is having quality covered across all lines who can and will come through together. Atm, our key defenders are our weak-link. We don't have consistent quality there. And I mean high-end quality. Lever is high-end. I'd be more than willing to give up a future first-round pick plus a depth player like ANB for Lever. Lever is in the same age bracket as our talented core and is without a doubt going to be one of the best key defenders in the competition in time. Lever T-Mac Viney Hogan Weideman That spine is absurd and granted we keep them, they'll play in those positions for us for years.. I understand T-Mac is slightly older. I consider him super important as a future leader along with Gawn, Jetta and Watts. Add our other young core group to the squad and the team reads: Jetta Lever Hunt T-Mac Viney Salem Watts Hogan Petracca Weideman Foll: Gawn Oliver Brayshaw Once the 9 bolded players hit above the one-hundred game mark, we'll be laughing and we'll see sustained success for a while. Adding class to a team like that won't be hard. Through FA, players will be keen to join us I'm sure. Kelly is commanding way too much coin and whilst he is an amazing talent, I'd rather hit Lever hard for our spine. The rest will come.

With a fit and firing Hogan, Watts, Weideman, Pederson and a resting Gawn as forward at times, why on earth would we play our current best defender as a forward/ruck? It makes little to no sense to me. Oscar and Frost are nothing but potential atm. Hopefully I don't need to bring up the multiple examples of players who have shown potential but ultimately don't cut it.

Why will I be eating humble pie? It's reported we're offering a key defender $800,000 a year who is in a very similar age and experience bracket to both Frost and Oscar McDonald. What does that tell you? If you're suggesting the coaches like the idea of all three playing in the one backline then I'm assuming you see our current best defender in Tom McDonald making permanent move forward from next year onwards? Hell no. Due to unfortunate circumstance, he has been the shuffle-guy because he can play forward and ruck at a better level than the other two. What I see them liking the idea of is the following: Having a really settled and strong defence in Tom McDonald and hopefully Jake Lever as our two main key defenders. Leaving the third tall spot to be an open battle between two developing keys, (Frost and Oscar) who are yet to show anything other than glimpses. (Some weeks three keys will be unnecessary). That is what we need moving forward. Oscar and Frost competing for the same spot so that when they come in, the pressure to perform is as high as possible.

If the reported offer is correct, it's clear the FD don't share the same views as many on here in regards to Frost and Oscar. Especially given the fact that Lever is the same age as Oscar and has played less games than Frost.

It doesn't bother me whether you think I'm being harsh or not. I'm just saying what I see. I mean, I don't really understand those who say "he is improving at a rate I wouldn't have anticipated." It's almost nonsensical to me. Are you happy to persist with what we have in the hope that they'll develop into good enough players? That's not how list management works. It's really simple. The greater the attribute diversity a player has, the greater that player will be. Lever almost has it all and is a key position height. Oscar and Frost don't have great attribute diversity. They were late picks due to that very reason and it's questionable whether or not they'll be anything other than average-okay AFL defenders. Here is a highlights package of Lever, (same age as Oscar) from last year: He had played under 36 games at this point.