binman

1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Lions were always a kicking side, they used to spread the footy back and forth looking for an opening in the corridor and hit the kick. Then move the ball very quickly once they opened the ground up.

They did this against us a lot from 21-24, making sure they didn’t go long down the line or kick to contests.

They are now more aggressive with their ball movement, speed on the ball and more backing the run and handball from behind.Less repeated switching

It’s not a massive change in game plan it’s taking away the lateral kick and repeated lateral kick to open up the 45 or corridor kick to change lanes. But let’s also factor in they’re a very different make up of a side/list I reckon they have better foot skills overall

We’re moving from a in the contest and go long and direct, generally to the pockets, where we can create repeat stoppages or crest pressure on the opposition on their defensive exits to cause a turnover and give us repeat entries, but that creates issues entering congested F50s

Our previous game plan wasn’t built around turnovers from our defensive half and getting speed on the ball with aggressive kicking or run in waves and forward handball.

I’d argue our style is a big shift and we don’t have all the pieces for us to be able to have that plan running smoothly. That’s not to say we don’t have them on our list with some magnet moving. I’m still not convinced we can get there without significant tough decisions, but we shall see.

I’ve coached for a fair while and it’s difficult changing payers from what they know and there are some players on our list who are very good at their style of game but very average at the hitting up of 45s and/or holding to give off the handball to the runner. We’ve done it on occasion yet still when the opposition brings the heat players go back to what they know

Spot on.

And I'd add going from the 2nd slowest in getting the ball forward in the first 12 weeks of 2025 to 4th in the last six weeks is not indicative of a 'complete change' of style.

For one thing, a six week period is a relatively small sample size to use as evidence of a 'complete change' of game style (they may well end up near the bottom of that table this season too - and from memory they also started to get it forward quicker near the end of last home season and in the finals, so perhaps they are deliberately following a similar pattern).

Secondly that is one stat, and ball movement is just one element of a team's game plan (eg how a team defends is arguably a more significant element of a teams game plan) - in isolation a change to that stat is not evidence of a complete change in style. A tweak perhaps but certainly not a radical change.

The pies have made a similarly dramatic change in reagard to their method of transitioning the ball as also evidenced by an isolated stat (albeit one that doesn't aggregate several data points Luke speed of ball movement) one hoyne has also discussed.

The pies have gone from one of the quickest to play on from a mark or free to the slowest.

Big change, but it's just one element of their method - and no one is suggesting they have changed their game plan. Tweaked it yes, changed it no.

From memory they were also the fastest ball movement team and are now in the bottom third (I might be wrong on that). Again noone is arguing tha5 is evidence they have completelychanged their game plan.

And as you note Pennant, tweaks are way easier to implement than wholesale changes to a team's game plan and method the dees have undertaken.

In any case, it's worth noting that goody deserves kudos for the fact that the dees have in fact implemented a new game over the last two seasons, in particular this season (we started the process in the first half of last year and as goody has said, unfortunately reverted in the second half of the 2024 season to try and eke out some wins to make finals).

There are any number of metrics that evidence our radical change in game plan - eg scores from defensive half, speed of ball movement (equal first in the AFL), how quickly we are playing on after a mark or free (top 3 in the AFL) etc.

The fact that we haven't been winning this year doesn’t negate the fact we have implemented a new method.

I would argue the key reason we have not won more games is not that we have failed to implement the new method but that we don't have enough players with the requisite skill set to implement it optimally. The most obvious indicator of that is our crazy scores from turnovers numbers (I'm guessing bottom three).

But our high turnover numbers can also be seen as evidence of working to implement a new transition based game plan - ie we are trying to take the game on just turning it over too often (ie we could reduce turnovers by reverting to our old, down the line, forward half game plan and/or playing g slow and/or not taking on the sort of high risk kicks the transition method demands).

A lot is made of mcrae being able to implement a similarly radical change in game plan in terms of movimg away from Buckley's defence first method but he had a major advantage over Goody.

Mcrae's game plan requires players suited to that style, namely a solid core of players who can consistently hit high risk kicks and not too many turnover merchants.

In terms of the former, unlike goody, he had a lot of senior players with above average to elite foot skills (eg Pendulbury, Sidebottom, Mcreee, Quaynor, Josh Daicos, Elliot, Hoskin Elliot) and had the good fortune of his tenure coinciding with the debut of the most consistently damaging kick in the AFL in Nick Daicos.

49 minutes ago, demoncat said:

He’s the perfect cherry on top player for a contending club

It might be an obvious thing to say but it’s no surprise his best goal kicking returns game when we were contending across 2021-23 (minus his injury effected back half of 23)

Yep.

Bottom line is we need to trade in at least one highly skilled half back flanker/mid who can reliably hit targets by foot.

And we need to draft in such a player too

To do both we need capital.

And to get that we need to be prepared to bite the bullet and trade out at least one player who we can get a decent return from.

Makes little sense to trade out any of our young guns like mcvee, jvr, Windsor etc.

So we need to trade out at least one high value best 22 senior player.

Realistically Tracc, Fritter and Rivers are arguably our only such players (I'm not including anyone we've recently resigned or maxy as there's no world in which we'd trade him)

With his contract Tracc would be tricky to trade, and unless he wants out there's not really a scenario where we come out winners by trading him (that's to say even if we brought in another gun he's unlikely, on net, to have more impact than tracc).

That leaves Rivers and Fritter.

And for mine as much as there is a contradiction in trading out an elite kick to bring in another Fritter is the obvious one to trade.

As you note DC he would fit perfectly into a club like the hawks, lions or even pies that have plenty of elite kicks in their midfield and back half. And he's still producing high quality footy.

Taken together, he has good trade value.

Xerri cops his rightful punishment.

Can't believe North Melbourne challenged it.

And credit whete it's due - the tribunal slapped them down quick smart.

24 minutes ago, Ghostwriter said:

A couple of days out from the match we were at $1.23, second shortest odds of the round with Brisbane at $1.22 vs Carlton.

Actually, I think that's what we started, or thereabouts (ie 1.25 not 1.45).

On 14/07/2025 at 14:12, Leopold Bloom said:

We were favourites against Norf.

We were 1.45 favourites.

On 14/07/2025 at 09:25, Pennant St Dee said:

Why not just bring Petty or May in to replace Lever. Disco is settling in well down back and IMO needs to be left there.

JVR, Jeffo, Melk and Fritsch playing HHF like yesterday should be how we structure up with a rotating mid Kossie/Trac/Viney and Wing rotation Langford/Chandler/Langdon is how we should look to go IMO with someone having to come in for Sparrow

Yep, total no brainer.

And petts Is surely ultimately going back to replace Lever and May when they retire.

16 hours ago, Howard_Grimes said:

It shows diddly squat.

The reasons behind why we seem to 'get up' against better opposition is of far more interest and intrigue to me. And on many occasions those performances have come off the back of extremely poor games the week prior.

Of course some still claim those bumps in performance were 'loading' related, but again that's just one of those blanket excuses that seems to be oh so convenient in many cases.

We are a long way off the top. Why?

Because the top clubs at this level do not drop off like we do so consistently.

Hi Steve/Jimmy. Back on DL I see.

You must love how we're travelling this year.

Don't love the latest name, but each to their own.

26 minutes ago, Chook said:

I'm not comparing us to other sides. I'm comparing us to ourselves c.2021

We're miles off.

Yeah, agree.

Nowhere near as good as our 1964 team either.

Sheesh.

8 hours ago, dees189227 said:

Would you bring spargo back in for sparrow?

Yep.

And I suspect that's exactly what will happen assuming spargs is ready to go.

3 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

He could take Judd’s role as a shut down small defender, freeing Judd to play a more attacking role further up the ground.

That's exactly what we need I reckon.

25 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Me too. Worst day at the footy I've had.

Mine too

6 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I didn’t think the Xerri hit was intentional. I thought it was a reckless fist from a big unco bloke. In any case, it’s reckless/severe/high on the rating system which adds up to 4 weeks.

Just hope Sparrow recovers. Given that he still seemed to be lights out when he went off is not a good sign. I had a head injury like that as a child and it took months to come right. I’ll be surprised if we see him again this year.

I don't think it was intentional either but i think collectively the sport needs to get its act together in what is ok on the field.

Reckless seems to be considered not such a big deal. Acccidental adjacent. Sure give him a few weeks, but it's not as if he meant it, yada yada yada.

Mooney's response in commentary was that sort of vibe. He'll get weeks, but geez he's a bit unlucky. A football act.

But reckless is a not accidental. And its not unlucky.

It is defined as 'acting without regard for potential consequences or dangers, often characterized by carelessness and a lack of caution.'

And that exactly describes Xerri's action.

The ball was at Sparrow's feet when he was struck. Xerri got nowhere the ball. And in doing so he showed no regard to the potential consequences of swimg on a closed fist in the vicinity of an opponents head.

And dees fans know full well how serious the consequences can be.

Tragically so do Pies and Eagles fans who have seen players in their team also have to retire because of concussion in the last two years.

We'll never eliminate the risk of concussion from footy, but if the AFL is serious about minimising the risk of an injury we know can cause LIFELONG damage then they need to get serious about penalising acts that show zero regard for potential consequences.

Four weeks is a total joke for that hit. Change it to six minimum and players might think twice before swinging a clenched in a way that could conceivably result in a player being struck to the head.

22 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Bloody love Melksham. And he’s so great to listen to when interviewed also.

If he us interested in being a coach I reckon he'd be a brilliant AFL coach.

1 hour ago, Rab D Nesbitt said:

I just want to see Max take Xerri to the cleaners today.

Max to pop his Xerri?

11 hours ago, old dee said:

A full fit Spargo is nothing flash!

Apart from the fact he's our best inside 50 kick 50 by the length of the Flemington straight.

No matter, it's not as if our chronic inability to weight a kick to forward's advantage, let alone spot one up, bothers dees fans.

15 minutes ago, jaydenh10 said:

this kid can play, hopefuly tigs dont get to him first

Why would the tigers be in the frame for ooze junior?

22 minutes ago, BDA said:

not really. following sports teams involves much more disappointment than enjoyment. its just the nature of it.

Indeed.

It's all about the journey.

2 hours ago, layzie said:

I second this.

Binman, your job this week is to find the name of that book!

"The Captain Class: A New Theory of Leadership" by Sam Walker.

In The Captain Class, Walker, a former editor at The Wall Street Journal, investigates what makes elite sports teams truly great. Through his research, he identifies a group of the most dominant teams in sports history and argues that the common factor behind their success is not the coach, star players, or tactics — but the presence of a particular kind of captain. These captains often go unnoticed but possess exceptional leadership qualities like resilience, emotional control, and the willingness to do the dirty work.

It's a compelling book that challenges traditional notions of leadership in team environments, both in sports and beyond.

1 minute ago, BW511 said:

I tend to think his (Trac) hesitance to contest aerially is a major road block for him playing as a forward.

In the middle it’s rarely expected and he’s still very flakey.

Of course, this is completely understandable given the injuries he sustained and how, but it’s still relevant

All good points ,well made.

No question in my mind tracc is still struggling to fully commit to the contest, which as you say is totally understandable.

2 hours ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

This is a bit harsh. Binman just gives us the facts based on the stats to show that we have drastically changed the way we play. He has also consistently called out our favourite sons in Gawn, Trac, Clarry and Viney as the key reason we are struggling going inside 50.

Atm we aren't quite nailing it for 100% of games, but we have been more than competitive against top 4 fancies Crows and Suns away from home.

I'm not happy with where we sit, but I can easily see what we are trying to become and can see we aren't that far off getting back to the top 8.

My view to this off season is we need to go out and bring in ready to go players. We don't need to go hard at the draft and we know we pretty much have K White signed up, Sinnema as an academy player and I'm guessing we may take one more player in the draft.

I'd be moving on McDonald (thank you), Billings, Fullarton, Hore, Woewodin & Campbell this off season plus Henderson.

Obviously we need Trac and Oliver to get back close to what they were, as that is really hurting us atm. I think Trac should be played majority forward from now onwards.

Then I'd be looking at the following in trades/FA:

• KPF - if McKay is keen to leave then he would be perfect (assuming Jackson isn't leaving Freo).

• Midfielder with speed - this may have to be Worpel as there aren't a heap of options and Hawks may be happy to move him on

• Small forward - we need to add another genuine small forward who can kick goals. Maybe this is Rosas Jnr but there could be other options that crop up.

Thanks DJ.

I didn't bother replying to an obvious troll.

If I had I might have pointed out that in reference to this nonsense.....

'Would you agree that some significant chess pieces need to be moved to get us on our way?

Or are you (similarly to many on here) too attached to the individuals that make up our list?'

.....I'd point them to last week's podcast where I talked at length about the need to bring in a high quality half back flanker with elite kicking skills and a gun medium forward, noting if it were up tp me I'd target Bergman (who sadly re-committed to port just a few days later), Wanganeen Milleara and Long from the Sun.

And how we get such trades done?

Well, i floated trading out Tracc, Rivers and Mcvee (though on reflection mvvee would be silly given his skill set - I'll replace Judd with Fritter for the reasons noted above).

8 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

So you're telling me, as a mid, Petracca attended the most center bounces, but he didn't even get one center clearance 😳

He also attended probably another 30 stoppages yet he finished the game with 0 clearances. Jake Soligo is half the player Trac is and he had 5 center clearances.

That's a very good reason to take him out of them next week and play him in the forward 50 and drop Fritsch.

I've found it quite strange tracc hasn't played forward mote often tgis season. Bately spent any time forward. Particularly strange given our challenges up forward.

I've completely lost patience with Fritter. After a handful of of decentgames he was back to being ineffectual and half hearted.

Not to mention selfish - hated him not giving the handball to kolt for a walk in goal.

I could see the argument going for it himself was actually the percentage play, I mean it was a gimme goal.

My issue was his instinct was to not consider handballing it to a teammate, or even feigning the give, which would have made it an even bigger gimme.

Long way of saying I 100% agree- drop Fritter and play tracc forward. I'd even like them to give clarry a run forward.

On fritter, Id go further - we don't have many players we haven't recently resigned with trade value. With his skill set and record, Fritter does have some trade value. And I'd be looking to trade him.

27 minutes ago, Bang Bang Bang said:

Melksham definitely gets another year, maybe even two.

May and Lever were much better today. Turner is a gun.

Kosi continues to shine as one of the premier hybrids.

I want to see more of Langford. His decision making is excellent.

Viney and Max battled manfully and Rivers was good early.

The drop off from Tracc is “kinda” understandable given his age and injury, but why oh why is Clarry so bad aged 27? He should be in his prime.

Big JT fan but Jefferson and Kolt look like busts. Trading some good picks to move up for Kolt is looking disastrous given our lack of depth.

Another honorable loss. It’s [censored] depressing having dead rubbers this early in the year .

Top post.

Much the same thoughts - saves me posting.

I'd add tracc's fumbling has become chronic. No where near his best.

And seriously, if Jones is going to come I to the AFL system and immediately become a midfield coach then he deserves AFL level scrutiny.

We were flat our appalling today at stoppages, particularly centre square stoppages. Oor set up and structures wete all over the place. I mean how often did maxy hit forward and the crows run onto the loose ball. That's largely on Jones

Every game is important and this is no different.

If we the bring the heat and pressure from minutes one, and can sustain it, we're a chance of winning.

Go redleggers.

3 hours ago, beelzebub said:

And isn't this a good example imo of why stats are essentially rubbish. Yes , he's all of those things.. and yet effectively a non impact player !!

A bit of an enigma as he doesn't put a lot of feet wrong but the speed, dynamism and creativity he once brought to the table is now replaced by beige.

God the 'stats is rubbish' palalver is so boring, not to mention 100% wrong.

Can't be bothered explaining why, or getting into a debate about it as i suspect your mind is made up - suffice to say that AFL clubs employ full time people to provide in game, real time and post-game analysis of the stats and data and have done for probably 20 odd years, and even before that had part time people doing the same.

(i met a fella at the Roos preseason practice match who did that role when Barassi coached the Dees in 1981! He told me Barrass said to him that he was shocked how unprofessional the dees were compared to the Roos, and one example of that lack of professionalism was the absence of real time stats in the box on match day)

9 hours ago, waynewussell said:

Salem is currently 4th on the AFL Marks table! He is 5th on MFC's Disposal list and 3rd for Rebound 50's, only a bee's appendage behind Bowey.

Yes, but the problem with salo now is there's zero hurt factor.

Half back has become a critical position in terms of driving quality transition from the back half and initiating scoring chains.

Key to that is hittiing high risk kicks (eg into the corridor, kicks on the 45, kicks over or thru zones etc) and salo isn't even trying them, let alone hitting them.

If he isn't playing that role, he then needs to be our Quaynor and lock down dangerous small forwards, but that's not his go either.

It's amazing actually that we are transitioning the ball so well given salo is just going, Mcvee has struggled to get back to his best form and Windsor is still finding his feet down back (and is not as good a kick as I hoped he would be).