binman

10 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We did hit the post 4 times. Split that and it looks a lot better

Two of which, Melk and Koz, just shaved the inside of the post (which by the by if i was AFL CEO for a day would count as a goal).

Just now, He de mon said:

Interestingly, both Langford and Lindsay have seemed to fit in seamlessly. I wonder if it is because they haven’t been exposed to the old game plan.

That, and in their junior footy career they were probably playing in teams using a transition-based method, one that puts a premium on kicking skills (which is a factor i reckon in how many of the high-end draft picks in the last 2 seasons are elite kicks).

9 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

I’d add a third critical element, the return of Picket, McVee and Windsor, all of which had delayed/interrupted starts to the season.

Kozzie outright gun but our kids are all recruited for this new game style. Langford and Lindsay have slotted in seamlessly.

Great call - i completely overlooked that.

Having Koz in particular, but also Mcvee, Lever and Windsor back in the team, and having so few injuries atm, is probably the single biggest factor in both our capacity to implement our method and our improved performance.

Rome wasn't built with second string architects and engineers.

4 minutes ago, Farmer said:

I agree with your post and can’t be bothered reading the 1000 earlier ones. The last two recruiting sessions have concentrated on quality of disposal. The bunch of youngsters ,recruited for last year or this year, on top of McVee , Bowie and Chandler, offer a much greater chance of the new gameplan, compared with the previous . In retrospect, the first 5 rounds were not a surprise. Langford and Lindsay were new, McVee was out, injured, Bowie still recovering from his long term 2024 injury. Windsor, such a success last year on a wing, was turned into a HBF. We are now seeing the benefit of first rate, well planned recruiting which has enabled the new game plan

100% agree about our recruitment - and we probably still need to bring in at least one more gun runner with elite foot skills (trade one in?).

And as you suggest, the improved ability to implement the game plan is also a function of time and practice. Rome wasn't built in a day.

57 minutes ago, Dee Boys said:

Ta.

On a semi related topic, that article comes close to echoing an irritating narrative that some in the media are running with, one i hope dees fans push back on when it's parroted to them by football nuffies.

Sure, we've made some tweaks, most notably with selection, and we have adapted our tactics in individual games to negate oppo strengths (something goody has been criticised in the past for NOT doing yet is getting zero kudos for doing so this season).

But we didn't change our method after our first 5 losses.

I mean, that's just dumb - as if we are going to change a game plan and method that has been 2 years in the making (I maintain we began the process of moving to a more transition based game plan in the 2024 preseason) five games into a season.

What we've done is improved how well we are implementing the game plan, and key to that has been two interrelated factors:

• Improved capacity to run out quarters and games

• Massive increase in our pressure and contest (which has driven an increase in scores from turnover, particularly forward half turnovers which in turn has driven higher scoring)

52 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

Binman, we have had at least one game since 2018 with a higher score. In 2021.

Would you believe.... home away

On 25/05/2025 at 19:49, Gibberish said:

I'm happy we're winning, but I'm still not convinced. Seems like we've just found a different way to waste inside 50s.

They say that to be a good game plan it needs to hold up in finals.

To me it just looks like Ross Lyons St Kilda and Fremantle teams where they won a majority or the game a majority of the time but never made enough scoreboard pressure to withstand the minority game when the pendulum swung the other way.

The previous game plan never looked far away, it was the forward line and forward entries that let us down. Call me the pessimist but I don't see that much has changed.

Never made enough scoreboard pressure?

You're a hard marker given the 131 points we put past the Swans is our highest score since 2018.

6 hours ago, DubDee said:

Not happy with 36 shots on goal from 64 entries?

That’s the highest % from the weekends games

I think I heard that in the last six weeks we are top 3 for scores per inside 50.

On 13/05/2025 at 10:07, Bring-Back-Powell said:

A loss to the Hawks with 7 of their best 23 players out, all of whom would absolutely be in their side if a final was played tomorrow.

Another last quarter fade out.

Continued inept inaccuracy on the most perfect day of footy.

The same old deficiencies rearing their head on our biggest test of the year to date.

He's simply out of form as a coach and has been for a long period of time.

Two weeks ia a long time in football.

4 hours ago, Demonstone said:

This is an old post of mine, which may give you an indication what a dreadful place it was.

In round 20 of 1982, my Demon mate and I went to Victoria Park for the first (and last) time to watch Melbourne play Collingwood.  We found standing room in a packed outer but soon realised we were surrounded by a seething mob of dirty, ugly, loud, abusive, obscene, smelly and toothless black and white supporters.  Almost without exception, they were drunk, smoking like chimneys, swearing like wharfies and even at this early stage of the day fighting amongst themselves.  Rather than relinquish their spot in the crowd, they were peeing where they stood.  Some of the men were just as bad.

We started well with the wind but the Pies had regained the lead by half-time.  The third quarter was all ours with eight goals and in the last, we kicked another eight to finish all over them by nine goals.  Glenn McLean was magnificent that day, marking everything in sight and earning the three Brownlow votes.  Collingwood were so impressed that they traded for him and you will rapt to hear that Glenn went on to have a wonderful two-game career with the Pies.

Having kept very, very quiet all day for fear of attracting the wrong sort of attention, the beers (ice-cold cans!) finally got the better of me and this is when I did the craziest thing in my life.  As Mark 'Jacko' Jackson kicked his seventh to seal victory, I let rip with a loud "Go Demons!!".  Things then went eerily quiet in the outer as hundreds of pairs of beady eyes bored into us.  I looked at my mate, he nodded and we turned and ran as fast as we could towards the exit and kept going all the way to Johnstone Street where we jumped on the first bus we found.  It didn't matter that it was heading in the wrong direction, we just wanted to get away from that horrible joint.  Only my drycleaner will know just how frightened I was that day.

True story.

One of the very first game I went to was dees v pies at Victoria park with an adult cousin. I was 9 or 10 , so perhaps it 1976 or 1977.

I was sitting, so not in the outer I can't remember much about the game, including whether we won or lost. But i vividly remember an older lady sitting in front of me turning around and telling me to tone down my language.

Haven't sworn at the footy since.

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

He has to show why. He needs to be banging down the doors with b.o.g. type games in the magoos. Not one, a string of them. Let him be the better choice because atm he isn't.

As ive said, I'm happy for AJ to get a block of games in the ones, and like everyone i love his energy and competitiveness. But let's not carried away - it's a big stretch, even with his energy, to say he is playing better than JVR has this season.

Take the game just gone. Let's accept AJ played his role, but it's hard to argue he had anywhere near a good game. These were his numbers:

• Six pressure acts and 13 pressure points (against his average of 30) - only Sharp (who was sub) and May applied less pressure on a day our pressure was through the roof

• He had 15 ruck contests and had the grand total of 1 hit out (not to advantage)

• 6 disposals - 5 handballs and 1 kick

• I tackle

• 0 marks

• 5 contested possessions (Fritter had more!)

• 2 score involvements

• 2 goal assists (his best comparative number as 2 assists was an equal game high)

• The lowest player rating of any player on the ground with -2.7 (i know that doesn't tell the whole story)

57 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Not so Bin, I’m on the Picket train and would replace AJ with JvR.

In four games AJ has had 23 disposals, two marks, 2 goals and 18 hit outs. I said it about Fullarton and I think the same with AJ; people are looking for positives but the reality is he’s not AFL standard yet, he drops marks he should take, he isn’t clean below his knees, his disposal is poor and when teams play two rucks against us because of Max he isn’t competitive. He was quite poor against Callum Brown as well.

Like everyone I love his attack on the ball, but you need more. IMO JvR is a better player all round and if you compared the two players JvR is clearly better. What people are doing is saying that JvR is well below his best so shouldn’t be in the team. Even well below his best JvR offers more.

To those that say AJ has played in winning teams and JvR hasn’t I say it is correlation not causation. Our results would have been the same with either.

It probably comes down to JvR’s mindset. If he believes he needs another game at Casey then fine but if he’s got his confidence back it’s a no brained for me.

I actually agree with you SB - ultimately JVR comes back in.

Kid is a total gun whose numbers in his first two seasons stack up to the very best tall forwards in the modern era, and better than his peers in the AFL (eg JUH, Amiss, Amartey, Logan McDonald, Cadman). I have zero doubt he will make it.

But like you I'm happy for JVR to cool his jets at Casey for say 2 to 3 weeks and allow AJ to play a block of games so he can settle and play with some freedom (so perhaps I'm catching the Picket train for one stop).

A benefit of taking that approach is it helps fast track AJ's development, which in addition to improving his game will help ensure he's better prepared if he gets a call up at future point and will give the coaching staff a better sense of where his ceiling is.

2 hours ago, Disco InTurno said:

Could be wrong but I feel like there might be a bit of a disconnect for some here in terms of what the coaching staff seem to want our forwards to do versus what forwards have historically done in footy.

Have found the game plan thread and Binman’s recent comments there really helpful in trying to understand this.

Petty and AJ certainly aren’t Hogan or Cameron but the way they play largely negates intercept marks in the forward 50—which both prevents those really frustrating fast transition goals through the corridor that killed us earlier this year and allows for ground balls that either let Kozzy do Kozzy things or starts those inside 50 handball chains to try to get to the open man.

Given that we do not have a dominant key forward at the moment, it honestly seems like a brilliant move by the coaching staff.

I really think a challenge for JVR had been adapting to this shift for our key forwards towards being more focused, as a starting point, on ensuring their direct opponent does not intercept mark.

I wonder if that helps explain why he kept on getting in wrestling matches with his opponent, something that must be a real challenge for a 22 year old key forward battling with bigger, stronger opponents.

And for a bloke that has played all his footy as a pure key forward (I think that's right) it's probably counter intuitive and unatural to be defence first, not to mention frustrating.

If I'm correct and goody is implementing a method that involves denying oppo intercept marks combined with manic inside 50 pressure (as evidenced by our off the charts inside 50 tackle differentials in the last six weeks - with an increased average pressure rating arguably the most dramatic statistical change since our first 5 losses) the key metrics for tall forwards are not goals and contested marks they are things like one percenters, spoils, pressure, tackles and above all denying intercept marks and bringing the ball to ground.

All of which points to one of things I most love about footy - the speed at which the game evolves tactically.

Having gone out ans targeted Lever to play the intercept role, we won a flag in large part because of ability to pressure the ball carrier to dump kick and then take intercept marks (a strategy we adapted from Hardwick's tigers and to a lesser eectent the crows)

All teams subsequently implemented variationa of that method to maximise intercept marks in the back half and use them to launch attacks.

Alir, Sicily, McGovern x 2, Vlaustin, Mcartin, Andrews etc etc etc all teams now have the equivalent of a Lever.

So now all teams are going to work on limiting such player's influence - which would in part explain why so few contested marks are being taken by forwards inside 50 atm.

It feels like goody might be going next level with denying intercept marks.

In another thread @DEE fence noted Chandler's use of low flat passes. I responded with this post, which i reckon fits in this thread given it's about tactics:

Its interesting you should note that.

It's clearly something they have been working on, ie low, flat passes inside 50 -often from near the boundary and kicked into the corridor on the 45.

Langdon does several each game, ditto melk.

And its more than just kicking back into the corridor - the kicks are being kept deliberately low, are often scrappy (particularly langdons) and often bounce before getting to the target.

I'm guessing the idea is four fold:

• Get it to the hotspot quickly, ie not floaters to reduce the time for the oppo to get numbers to the target and by doing

• Ideally hit a target dead in front of the goal, 20-25 metres out.

• But if not marked, either because it's spoiled or because it bounces, it becomes a predictable ground ball which we fight to win or tackle the oppo if they win it.

• Reducing intercept marks

In regard to the last point, all teams look to reduce oppo intercept marks inside D50, but we look hyper focused on doing so.

Watching petty on Sunday from ground level in the pocket you could see his sole focus was blunting mcartin. Barely left his side or looked to get separation.

AJ was similarly defensive. Even Friiter was pretty defensive- am I right in thinking he waxed with melksham to defend Blakley?

Ironically, of our medium and tall forwards, Melksham who has been playing the defensive forward role, was probably our most offensive forward (McCartin too big for melk I reckon).

On 25/05/2025 at 23:12, DEE fence said:

Chin's delivery inside 50 was superb:

Hard Flat Passes

Its interesting you should note that.

It's clearly something they have been working on, ie low, flat passes inside 50 -often from near the boundary and kicked into the corridor on the 45.

Langdon does several each game, ditto melk.

And its more than just kicking back into the corridor - the kicks are being kept deliberately low, are often scrappy (particularly langdons) and often bounce before getting to the target.

I'm guessing the idea is four fold:

• Get it to the hotspot quickly, ie not floaters to reduce the time for the oppo to get numbers to the target and by doing

• Ideally hit a target dead in front of the goal, 20-25 metres out.

• But if not marked, either because it's spoiled or because it bounces, it becomes a predictable ground ball which we fight to win or tackle the oppo if they win it.

• Reducing intercept marks

In regard to the last point, all teams look to reduce oppo intercept marks inside D50, but we look hyper focused on doing so.

Watching petty on Sunday from ground level in the pocket you could see his sole focus was blunting mcartin. Barely left his side or looked to get separation.

AJ was similarly defensive. Even Friiter was pretty defensive- am I right in thinking he waxed with melksham to defend Blakley?

Ironically, of our medium and tall forwards, Melksham who has been playing the defensive forward role, was probably our most offensive forward (McCartin too big fir melk I reckon).

1 minute ago, picket fence said:

Id have T.Mac FORWARD for Petty any day of the week! Even if I dont rate A.J it seems that the Brainstrust at Demonland have Brainwashed the selection commitee and he will probably stay. Viney for Spargo is a given, the later will spend months at Casey waiting for another game and Sharp is becoming a damaging link player and finisher. So those are my changes and Petty is the sub! Anyone else on board??

Picket, I think your train left long ago - and there's no one else on board but you.

8 minutes ago, Dannyz said:

Given 1 quarter to execute your role and you finish with 7 touches and 2 goals as a half forward, I think it would be entirely unfair to drop Sharp

Sure, but they have to drop someone.

Tmac has arguably been our best tall defender tgus year, certainly the most consistent and he got dropped.

25 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Viney for Spargo. I'd be comfortable making that change even if Spargo is fit - IMO he's clearly 23 out of 23 right now and Viney will come back assuming he's fit.

Interesting question if Spargo's injured and Viney still isn't right. Laurie?

TMac for Lever if there's even a shadow of doubt over Lever's fitness. Wouldn't be surprised to see May "managed" this week either.

AJ stays until JVR puts together weeks of good VFL form. Not one match against the bottom side.

I'm not convinced by this.

As in, I accept he's doing more than the raw stats often show us, but I'm not convinced that's keeping him in the side.

Who is at Casey right now who is banging the door down to take his place? Laurie?

And that aside, if he and Viney are both fit this week, and noting you've already accepted Viney is an automatic selection, who makes way for Viney?

Good question. Probably sharp or spargo.

3 minutes ago, DeeBlood said:

Maynard is out....He'll keep... Save that for the finals...Greater justice then anyway!!

Still a chance apparently.

1 hour ago, DEE fence said:

I once had the great pleasure (while escorting the umpires as a young uniformed constable) at the G, of telling Sticks Kernahan 'not to sook', in those words, as he came over and started berating the umpires after a close Melbourne victory. Was walking on air, (and I knew he dearly wanted to belt me) was my most rascal moment I'm willing to admit to publicly.

You should of arrested him for crimes against coiffure.

41 minutes ago, WheeloRatings said:

Melbourne's best post-clearance contested possessions (2021-2025) is +36 in Round 5, 2021 against Hawthorn. We have had greater than +23 on 11 occasions during that time.

https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_match_stats_team.html?id=melb

Here are the pressure numbers too:

Melbourne v Sydney (Round 11, 2025)

https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_match_stats.html?ID=20251108

Pressure

Team pressure

Quarter	For	Agn	Diff
1	204	216	-12
2	170	176	-6
3	200	182	+18
4	185	190	-5
Match	190	190	0

Source: Herald Sun

Most Pressure Points

Note: pressure points are the weighed sum of pressure acts. Physical pressure acts are worth 3.75 points, closing acts are worth 2.25 points, chasing acts are 1.5 points and corralling are 1.2. ( https://www.championdata.com/glossary/afl/ )

Player	Pressure Acts	Pressure Points	Season Average
Clayton Oliver	22	63	54.7
Trent Rivers	20	56	29.5
Max Gawn	15	47	21.1
Ed Langdon	15	44	31.2
Christian Petracca	21	38	36.8
Christian Salem	14	36	19.8
Tom Sparrow	14	34	38.1
Xavier Lindsay	15	31	26.8
Kysaiah Pickett	14	30	38.8
Jake Bowey	15	30	29.2
Kade Chandler	13	29	33.3
Bayley Fritsch	9	26	20.3
Jake Lever	10	24	20.3
Charlie Spargo	10	22	26.7
Harvey Langford	14	22	21.1
Jake Melksham	11	22	20.3
Caleb Windsor	10	21	24.1
Judd McVee	11	21	18.2
Harrison Petty	7	15	18.1
Aidan Johnson	6	13	30.0
Daniel Turner	5	13	15.3
Harry Sharp	7	11	19.6
Steven May	5	10	9.9

Source: Herald Sun

Brilliant wheelo - just in time for the pod (and now I feel complete)

10 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Stats is your thing.

I’m purely going on what I’ve watched, and nothing we’ve produced comes close to that of Collingwood or the Dogs. Their pressure around the ball carrier has been relentless. Stats don’t take into account the quality of opposition and how certain teams can maintain their KPI whilst missing key personal through injury or in Collingwood’s case by at times resting players. We’ve got some big games remaining this season against Pies x 2, Crows at AAMI, Suns at Metricon, Carlton, Dogs & Hawks at the G so we will be tested.

Whilst it’s great we’re winning and evolving the way we play I believe we’re still a bit of the pace of some teams. I’d like to see us use the corridor more after we’re created a turnover.

So your evidence supporting your assertion 'our pressure had not even come close to that what Collingwood brings' is your personal observations.

Seriously, that's it?

To be honest I'm really struggling to avoid responding with sarcasm or irony.

I'll resist that urge and simply say that your argument is, on many levels, unpersuasive- not least because of the high likelihood of confirmation bias given your well documented opinion of where we are at as a team.

Why don't you at least do some research to check if the data begween roundv6 and 11 supports your vibe?

If you are right the data will support your assertion, not contradict it.

By the by, stats aren't 'my thing'. My thing is trying to understand the game, and I find a combination of observation, looking at the data, curiosity and taking on board the many smart, well considered opinions of many posters on Demonland is really helpful.

3 hours ago, old dee said:

Sadly he is a long way from nibbler binman. I will admit he is courageous and gives 100% .

Not sure what you mean OD.

The comparison to nibbla is spargs preparedness to play a distinct role, one that is wholly team first and completey underappreciated by most fans - but 100% appreciated by teamates because they understand what the role is and how hard it is.

You might remember that for several seasons nibbla was the demonland whipping boy for much the same reason spargs is now- because his value to the team is difficult to identify in 1995 stats like disposals and goals.

It still amuses me how when announcing he was leaving it was as if we were losing Nick Daicos.

2 hours ago, Adam The God said:

It depends if Adams is up to the level this year.

True - needs to bulk up a bit.still though hecwants to be a gorilla hunter.

1 hour ago, Adam The God said:

I maintain this may not be the case by the end of 2025. May's pace is becoming an issue, as it is for TMac.

No t sure about the end of 2025, but agree May's pace is a worry.

That said every team needs a gorilla defender to take the oppo gorilla forward, which most teams have at least one of. And May is our gorilla down back, with no obvious replacement, which i think means his best 22 spot is safe this year.