Mad_Melbourne

24 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Ben Brown naturally straightens us up and brings the smalls into play as he brings the ball to ground in dangerous areas.

The biggest difference that I see Ben Brown offers, is that he leads at the football. 
We have been creating space off turnovers when we move the ball well, but the problem with it is every forward runs back towards goal. We don’t have any forwards leading at the footy. There’s a bit of an issue with players wanting to kick the footy to where the player needs to go, but today especially it looked to be advantage side of the defender regularly. 
 

20 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

 

Instead they plonk Gawn at FF. He. Is. Not. A. Forward. 

I personally agree, I think we need to throw a different look at the team. bring in Schache or Brown. Drop Grundy. Or even play Petty forward, and bring in Tommo. 
 

I think the two rucks, is not a point of difference for the better. It’s removed one of our teams strengths, Max Gawns defensive intercept marking. It may prolong his career and he may play 3-5 games that dominate forward of the ball a year. But I agree he is not a forward. 
 

Our stoppage dominance is going to stand regardless of the two rucks, Gawn is the best ruck in the competition. We have the best midfield cattle in the competition. 
 

Scoring is our issue and we can afford to keep looking at different things to try and find a solution. If we aren’t scoring, we need to look at ways to score and we have a plethora of options playing VFL. 

24 minutes ago, rpfc said:

The 14 marks inside 50s can be a misdirect. How deep were those marks? We’re they in the pocket? Who was marking them? Ie. Charlie Spargo yelling a screaming for the footy 45 out is as helpful as kicking it backwards…

This is true, i50s can be a misdirect also. I'd say more often than not though a mark inside 50 is a good indicator of generating a scoring opportunity. In a similar sense intercept possession can be a misdirect depending on where in the ground we are intercepting. All stats are really dependent on situation for sure.  

I'm not necessarily sure that this is worthy of a new thread and I didn't post this in the changes thread as I think the ideal forward set up and structure is an interesting conversation to have, so move it or merge it if it makes sense to.

Goodwin is always talking about looking at ways to improve and whilst scoring has been our biggest issue over the last 3 games, its no secret that our structure forward of the ball is what he is going to be looking to mix up over the next few weeks in order to get the best result. Whilst its pretty clear we have been still generating opportunities in the forward half, taking advantage of these opportunities especially against Essendon and GWS has dropped off. Do we think the reason behind this is due to personnel being tired or just not generating enough good opportunities. Against Essendon we had 14 marks inside 50, which would indicate we probably should have scored higher. Against GWS players bellied the snap a lot in the last, but we also only had 10 marks inside 50. There was a a clear change of tactic in the last quarter against GWS, we stopped moving the ball through the small chip kick, but often found an outnumber through handball to run and carry. So I think its probably a combination of creating really good scoring opportunities and possibly personnel.

This thread is to look at what the possible forward lines people think could work best, especially due to a near on full list available for selection. 

McDonald, Fritsch, Pickett, Neal-Bullen, Spargo and Jackson with mids rotating through seems to be the current forward options that we have been running with.
Most people are suggesting that adding of one key forward, Brown or Weideman, at the expense of a mid (Sparrow most likely) is what they would think makes sense at the selection table. Melksham in for one of the smalls is also something I have seen suggested. 

But what is our ideal forward mix? Here is  where I am going to be a little bit controversial and suggest that there is a forward line we have yet to try or suggest that probably warrants being looked at before the season is out. I want to preface it with saying Luke Jackson has shown himself to be of AFL level, played a multiple good games and is getting his hands to the ball around stoppages quite nicely, but realistically gives us little as a forward. Dropping Jackson to try Weideman as the second ruck (like he is playing at VFL) is probably in Goodwins thought process, a forward half of 
McDonald, Fritsch, Brown, Weideman (2nd Ruck), Spargo, Pickett, Neal-Bullen with mids rotating through, could be the solution to our current scoring woes and could make our forward half a much more dangerous prospect. 

What is your ideal forward set up if you were coaching and why?

 

14 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

Last Friday's outcome with Weid was

• 2 goals kicked directly by players that he handballed to after groundball gets under maximum pressure.  That's rare stuff from KPFs
• 2 goals kicked directly after marking contests that he got first hands to
• There were also 2 goals he would normally have kicked from marks but his kicking was a bit off - normally he is a beautiful kick and there is not a structural issue with his kicking.
• He also got his hands to a number of marks that just didn't stick - he did stick his last mark at full stretch but couldn't finish with the kick at goal
• Two Fwd 50 tackles that resulted in stoppages

That's decent output and, if he takes all his chances, it's dominant output.

I agree with this take on it. He also has provided many more contests in the air than Ben Brown did. 
He was playing on Harris Andrews and often was trying to move him from the dangerous part of the ground, the last quarter was probably the only time Harris Andrews really got going. 
I think our forward half is functioning better with him in the side  

Also, just taking a purely logical point of view on the issue, Ben Browns last game he had 4 touches and he has then not played a match for 2 weeks. There is no reason to bring him in before the bye considering the time he’s had off from competitive football. 

Does anyone ever think about what would be said if Omac made the error in the last quarter that Frost did? 

Omac has played well since his VFL game, his ability to spoil is underrated. He will make a few mistakes, like all players do. When he makes a mistake it’s the biggest issue in the world, when Frost makes a mistake it’s widely accepted as a flaw in his game. 

Out defence has been much more solid now that we aren’t playing that stupidly high line that we were playing. Much easier to stop the ball from moving past when we have players playing behind opponents with a sweeper rather than always taking front position. Jetta and Hibberd are two of the most aggressively positioned defenders in our team and without them we have pretty much all defenders taking a much more defensive positions which is interesting 

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

Scrapping the barrel here I fear. Neither Oscar or Harrison have done enough consistently at VFL level to warrant a call up. But these are desperate times so let’s hope they put in blinders or at least contribute. 

I agree, but also they have a better form line than our other recent debutant who came up to play. They both have traits that can translate to AFL level, but definitely wouldn’t be getting a game if we were not in the situation we are in. 

2 hours ago, SFebes said:

I’d say one of the backs will play forward and tag J McGovern 

Melksham has played this role before, I’m thinking they might play Petracca there. Hope he neutralises the air and beats him at ground level. His season has been significantly underrated by what he has brought in our fwd 50. Minus a few sketchy set shots

30 minutes ago, DV8 said:

 

That's what I initially thought, as well...  then considered it may have caused a free downfield... 

Well your initial thoughts were right, no free kick would have been given had he not held him, he let him breeze past him with zero body contact and then turned to chase. 

If we played man on man your assessment would be right, but watch the whole match and you’ll find very rarely the player will break neck run with the player after he is on the mark. Omac made mistakes, but this one was a bigger mistake by Oliver than the whipping boy 

7 minutes ago, DV8 said:

https://www.afl.com.au/video/2019-05-11/watch-the-last-two-minutes-gc-v-melb

 

Also, check in Slo-Mo,  roll back and forth,  between 1:20_  thru to 1: 37 secs... 

OMac allows his man to run thru to receive,  and OMc's standing still until his man has 10 Mtrs on him...  that is Holman,  who ends up kicking the goal, that puts THEM in front...  Omac asleep as usual.

IMO,  Omac should have left his man at that stage (prior to his man offering the offensive option),  and gone to the wing in front of stoppage, ahead of Jones, edge of the square.  Or switch with Jones on the mark, letting Jones be spare defender.... 

Instead OMac strolls thru the middle of the ground,  as his opponent streams forward with ball in hand...  and goals.   this would normally be end of game for us.

Realistically Oliver should have checked his run. 

We made mistakes all game, to pick out that by OMac I think is pretty rough, but also I think he’s probably actually not really don’t the wrong thing in that instance 

1 minute ago, Cam Schwab's Whiteboard said:

Melbourne have been bad, but posts like this are just pathetic. Hope you feel better attacking someone through the anonymity of the internet. 

I guess that’s fair, it’s a rough call and A little over the top, but I can’t think of anyone who has had a less impressive 2 games. Good on him for making it and he will have a great local football career but realistically he’s not up to it. 

Good contribution, really helps the chat about the game. I hope you feel better anonymously attacking someone through the anonymity of the internet

I hope this post aged poorly, but Put Keilty on the bench and leave him there, I don’t know how he was able to get a second game but he is honestly the single worst footballer to wear our jumper I have ever seen. 

Lewis is pretty horrible defensively. 

Our forwards keep running under the football 

1 hour ago, dworship said:

Went back and checked the second one and Harmes did enter the protected zone (10m) looked like about 7m. Problem was OMac skipped sideways about 5 times, away from the Mark and made it look like Harmes was much closer. Can someone enlighten me why  OMac would do that? I understand why it is done when someone is kicking for goal but not in this case.

So that the bloke who was trying to kick it towards 50 would be less likely to drill a pass towards leading targets in front of goal. All players do this, nearly all of the time on the mark. 

So so many people listening so much to the commentators, yes Omac missed two balls, one would have been an intercept possession, but the kick was also too close to him. Running from 4m away at the footy v 10m makes it much more difficult to read. The second one was a horrible kick from Lewis which forced him to stop and would have had to change direction to run at the football. The commentators had a duo at him but clearly over simplified both situations. 

Frost did 10 minutes of compitent football, but even in that patch would have lost us the game had the umpires called the throw. 

We used the ball so poorly, but also it was not general play that hawthorn scores from but rather good chains of ball movement. We were the better team, but also lucky to win. 

Keilty had one great bit of play, but was a genuine liability on the field. I only watched it on TV but there were at least 7-8 times were it clearly looked like his leading patterns were rubbish looking for easy football. He is just learning forward craft and I think he definitely needs to keep learning in vfl. Hopefully Wiedeman can come back in after a strong showing tomorrow 

Good to have a win when punching so deal with depth, the commentators crucified two moments from Oscar, but realistically they were not so bad. Umpires were pretty off the whistle, but leads to inconsistencies. But I’d say Frost threw that ball in the last contest, so lucky for us they kept it out. 

Lockhart and Hore can’t kick the football, but make up for it by being incredibly competitive. 

Hopefully Wiedeman kicks 3-4 in VFL and comes straight back in, Keilty ran around like a headless chook

Good on the fella, but I don’t think there has ever been a much more underwhelming form line up forward for someone to debut with. 

Heres hoping he can clunk a few and kick a few, but realistically I think after dropping Weideman they’d backed themselves in to a corner with Tim Smith now being injured. 

21 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Already had 2 ruck craft sessions in the open with Greg Stafford

Yeh, but craft sessions are significantly different to playing time in the twos. A bloke as tall as he is will definitely be taught to ruck, I’m merely stating that I’d say he would play more forward than ruck this year. 

54 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Bradtke is a project player with a capital P, assume they will concentrate on the ruck first up, he can kick goals, practices at training, so you could plonk him in the goal square

Walker is another addition to the growing list of medium size players who can play anywhere, 

I’d say from comments made by Jason Taylor, he’d be playing most of the time as a forward. Secondly, would suggest the ruck not necessarily an ideal spot to put a player who hasn’t played football in a few years, until he is able to protect his body correctly in the position. Teach him to use his body in marking contests and attack the ball in the air, progress that to ruck is my thoughts on the matter

Speed is such a ridiculous thing, don’t get me wrong obviously quick players have their benefits, but speed in football comes from ball movement and ability to spread to the right spots. When we spread from the contest well after winning the inside ball, we were pretty much the quickest side in the comp. Line breaking players have their importance but what cost us in games was when we didn’t do the basics well and lost the ball on the inside for the most part. 

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Im a big fan of O'Halloran J.. classy mover who reminds me a lot of Shaun Higgins. I would be wrapt if he drifted out to our first pick.

Beat ya to it, but further want to put out that his agility is elite, his contested work is elite and his finishing is better than good. 

I really hope Melbourne end up with him as I think his skills not only translate to afl, but has 3-4 positions that he can play which will make him useful. 

7 minutes ago, ChaserJ said:

I like Xavier O’Halloran or maybe Ned McHenry in that range. Maybe Curtis Taylor or Sam Sturt will be around, but with a couple of 2nd rounders and a couple of 3rds we must be some chance of getting into the 1st rd somewhere.

Xavier O’Halloran will be a steal this draft in my opinion, when Vandenberg was contemplating heading off, I thought this would be the replacement from the draft, just much higher foot skills than Avb

7 minutes ago, praha said:

He hits the scoreboard though and we can't have too many smart footballers. I'd have him ahead of Tyson given our grunt already, and well ahead of Garlett. He's only playing down back to fill for Lever, who plays that loose defender. I'm confident Frost would be playing now even if Lever were in the team.

I think Fritsch will be a better player for his time down back.

No doubt it was a valuable experience for him, but I think it squeezed him out of the side. Fritsch was realistically competing for a spot in a position that was not suited to him. 

I think Fritsch has had a great season and is stiff to miss out this week. But with our game increasingly becoming a contest based game, especially in finals, the extra pure mid rotation helps, plus Our defensive matchups push him out  

I do agree his assets are most suited to the forward line, which is where I see his best football. 

1 minute ago, Deestroy All said:

Horrible change. 

You’ve got a bloke that was a revelation on the wing and damaging up forward. Yet get rid of him and leave Tyson in who is lost. 

Tysons contest work and ability to realesse when drawing opponents is under rated, that said his outside work is somewhat fairly maligned. Fritsch outside work and marking ability is fairly rated highly, but his contest work has been subpar in the backhalf. I said earlier playing him in the backline, highlights his deficiencies more than his strengths, and whilst playing as a forward flank is clearly probably his best position, he doesn’t give the pressure that Hannan, Neal-Bullen and Spargo give, so realistically he’s competing with Melksham and Petracca and therefore he can’t move there. 

Fritsch is unlucky, but I think it makes our team look stronger/more competitive on paper. That doesn’t necessarily mean it to be true, but I see it as the logical move this week. 

I’m in China, it’s a bit cheaper but also willing to take donations for the cause. Send me money by post of carrier pigeon. 

Bloody hell this is exactly what frustrates me about gofundme. Surely a bit ridiculous 

4 minutes ago, monoccular said:

 

Not wishing JV any ill by any means, but say he did go out and play 2 or 3 quarters and come off sore, would that not be better for him and the club than doing the same next week in the one that really matters?

There is just so much that simulation can and can’t do.

And I presume foot soreness is the potential injury that Mad-Melbourne was referring to, since that thug Wojxyzinski isn’t playing and more. 

Nothing about a player hitting him, but removing all doubt of any sort of match related injury. I mean training can cause ACLs but significantly more ACL injuries occur during matches. Motivating risks associated with any other injury. In terms of flaring up of his foot again, I would assume ball training and running training with the team would provide the best test rather than a match where he might kick it 16-20 times. 

21 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Interesting... loved the shellacking yesterday but a similar thought did cross my mind and I see the Toiges lost last night.

I love the VFL but I am starting to wonder about its relevance heading forward. The fact that Viney didn't play when there was an opportunity to play him for 2-3 quarters adds weight to the question mark as to whether you could get much the same result from a training program with simulated match conditions. It's a lot of money being spent on the VFL teams without an absolutely clear understanding of their role.

It’s a risk vs reward set up. Viney is our captain, sure we could have played him but the fact that he could possibly have gone out and injured himself is not worth it? Plus he only just got out of the “rehab group” yesterday. I honestly don’t see how anyone would realistically see the benefit of him playing 2-3 quarters in a match. I think we were lucky to be able to put enough scoreboard damage and rest players who may be in contention for a spot. If the game came down to the wire no way Hannan and co would have been on the bench. 

6 hours ago, Deespicable said:

Am I missing something here?

Nobody has mentioned the non-selection of JKH, who based on just about everybody's AFL selection comments including my own, is first in line to be omitted should we regain Viney, Hannan and Joel Smith.

Yes I know he played well last week v GWS, but to suggest he is a likely first 22 next week is baffling?

To keep him back as a hold over player is not a bad idea, but Hannan hardly needs a hitout either I would have thought.

In JKH's case, he has had a couple of breaks already this season as 23rd player, so there is absolutely no need to rest him - unless you are one of the few that think he is a gimme next week - Goody may well be one of the few, but i doubt it.

And what's worse, he is exactly the type of player the VFL side needs this week with a few of our fringe mids already out - Stretch, Baker and Kent etc.

Has JKH got an injury? Did the club ask him to take it easy because he may play? Is he so big-headed that he knocked back a chance to play because he feels he's a gimme next week? I doubt the latter.

Anyone got some inside info on why he is not playing?

 

If they played last week in the AFL they aren’t allowed to play this VFL game, I’m 90% on that. I heard it, haven’t checked to 100% it but would make sense

4 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

I think you're missing the point and all people that mention he kicks 50 goals etc. are only mentioning half of the picture. Hogan's defensive pressure, 2nd efforts etc. can be disgraceful at times and his poor attitude on field can be a culture killer. Also, his kicking for goal lets us down quite a bit against the good teams. Ultimately, people can't deny that Melbourne has played with real spirit the last 2 weeks without Hogan. 

But how we have played and Hogan missing is independent data. Setting up 6-6-6 has meant more 1 v 1 contests, which is a situation Hogan will thrive in. We’ve been lowering our eyes and hitting targets, which would help Hogan. 

We are are not playing better due to not having Hogan in the side, but rather structural changes made up the ground. 

We have also also played without Viney, so really we shouldn’t bring him in because the spirit is only due to 22 players on the field, not at all anything structural at all