Dappa Dan

I think we could use a player or two hat stand up in a contest. He seems to do that. Give him a few years to put on some size, work in some Byron like bumps and we may have a presence on the ground. Looking forward to seeing him play. I spoke to someone who watched him in the final and said he had him among his BOGs.

You don't like it don't read it. This is what the forum is for, mate... However, in the interests of clearing up the clutter, what do you say we do the PM thing from here Bob, if we feel the need?

Interesting that... Too late. Apologies. You have a point there. Alright pedantic. My point was that we have for a long time been a skilled side, but not a hard side. Simple enough for you? Jesus... You're going to start picking apart my CHF/KP posts to find which ones contradict the others in some small way, just so as to justify how you think a running game overrules the need to recruit height? Is that what you're basing your point on? I'm not going to bother looking through the streams of posts for your inconsistencies... I highlighted them already, and since you have no intention of responding to where I have shown you proof of your own hypocrisy, I'll not even dignify this with any more response. Going by that definition the game has changed every five minutes in the past 20 years. Every player or group of players who come along and dominate are immediately lauded as "redefining" the game of footy. Until a year later the next champion group comes through and does it again. And all through this time, as far as I am concerned, KP players are still the ones kicking all the big scores. I'm not going to waste your or my time quoting the last 20 years of top 10 goalkickers... among which only a handful of players considered non-KP have gone close to a coleman. How much simpler can I make it than that? And don't act like everything changes in footy. There are rules that have stayed the same. Tall blokes don't get any smaller, you can't train a crap kick to be a good kick, and you can't fix umpires... there's a few hum dingers for you. Don't give me that. You went on to say he had an "excellent" year. "Giant Strides" Please.... He turned things around... He COULD take giant strides this year, sure. With a decent midfield he probably will given the facts he's in his prime and has a great work ethic. But I saw nothing this year to convince me he's wiped away the last 3 years of frustration. Do yourself a favour and stop trying to TELL everyone what you THINK they don't know. I know my footy, and I'm not as positive on Brad as you are. What's more NOTHING you've written is anything new, so I don't know why you're writing with a tone that suggests you think it is. Rubbish. I've quoted as much statistical rhetoric as you... and I'm trying to cut down. There's a reason for that. Stats would have added 50% to the post length. I thought I was talking to someone who takes the stats as read. My mistake. It is not my point, and I would disagree too. Doing exactly what the Hawks is doing is precisely what I've ALREADY described as the ND model. What I want to do is bring in 2 KP players that can monster attacks. It just so happens that I can use the Hawks as an example of this method paying dividends. See? Now that's good stuff. No stats there, huh? That sounds a lot how I've constructed my arguement all this time. Not with numbers... Now my point has ALWAYS been that this pace-reliant kind of footy is something that has worked over the years to take down goliath opponents who weren't on, on the day. And I will concede that it's working more and more these days as the possession game, and the reaction to flooding becomes apparent, along with increased overall skill by foot. I would say, however, that as effective as it is, I've not seen evidence that it would lead to a flag, or a run of flags. In fact I don't reckon that the best and paciest side going around will win one with their current team and structure. Now. If the dogs lose their old blokes and bring in some good tall timber, and they win a flag... then yes... it'll look like you were onto something. However, I'm not sure SUSTAINED success will occur with what you've been condoning here, which is why I just can't get behind it. And if we suddenly see an influx of ex-basketballers who bring contested marking back to the fore, then long kicking could return and be the premiership winning model again. It's like any proper tennis expert will tell you... Baseliners are ruling the courts, but all it will take is another great young serve-volleyer to come back and suddenly it'll all turn on it's head again. As for the recruiting forwards to beat a defence... I made myself clear. And I think you're wrong. You made yourself clear, and you think I'm wrong. I want the best forward in the game... and failing that I want one of the best 6. I'll try it one more time. When you compare the existing list of a team, on match day, to another team... then yes I agree. But I can't understand how you can possibly plan ahead when recruiting thinking you can cope with EVERY defence, with all their strengths and weaknesses with one 17 year old kid. That defies logic. I reckon it's simple. You HAVE to recruit the best, or one of the top 6 (Pavlich, Brown, Riewoldt, Hall, Franklin Fevola). In that sense, at the recruiting table, when you compare one forward, to another forward, you are taking the best of the two. Not the best forward compared to an existing defence. Besides. By the time the forward comes on, going by what you've said, the game will have changed again anyway. No. Look, this may be my lack of expression on a keyboard, but I've never said that, or even hinted at it. I've said repeatedly that they could be good, and that I hope they're given every opportunity, but that if they fail in the long run that we don't cling to them hoping for them to turn it around. No-one would be happier than me to see all four get AA gurseys... but history has shown it's just unlikely. Garbage. You're assuming that. I made no such statement. In fact I said the opposite. We have young kids that I'm thrilled with and we're on the way to having the list we'll come to know as the demons for 10 years. What I'm asking for is solid form from them, for 22 rounds, which we've not seen from anyone but Rivers and Garland. They are likely to form AN AFL defence... but a strong one? I can only say possibly at this stage. We've had a bunch of guys rotate through there in the past, and have blooded players, even had a guy or two turn out ok (Ingerson). Actually I think Broady might have really made our defence look different too. I've said it over and over again, and you've obviously glossed over it, I rate Garland immensely (but am not sure he'll play his whole career in defence), I've seen more of Martin at VFL level than at AFL level and my doubts stem from there... His year was a sensational way to start, but I've seen too many players fall by the wayside to be convinced at such an early stage. Rivers we all know about. Frawley I have huge concerns over, and as quick and hardworking as Warnock is I honestly believe that he only has the scope to go so far. ALL THAT SAID I'm pleased they're there and I'm thrilled that we dinally have a young group of KP defenders that are maturing together, instead of doing the ND thing where you recruit someone else's garbage and hide them in the backline. That much, I agree, is worth celebrating. I was an erstwhile supporter of his for all the last 3 years. Before this year I had lost patience. He still has to earn it. Simple really... and yet another difference of opinion. Nothing more Mm hm. Once again though, Blease and Strauss were both smart pickups given our position at 17 and 19. Like I said, I didn't want the club to do anything else... I was just disappointed we didn't get what I wanted leading up to the draft. And this debate is more talking about next years draft anyway... maybe the following one too. Seriously? Not being realistic? Ok... well realistically we don't have the money or the culture to support a winning team. Realistically we're headed for the same mediocrity we've seen for the last 10 years. I think a dose of unrealistic expectations, and a bit of pressure to perform might do this club some good. Hopefully DB sees it this way as well. I wouldn't want to see Watts become anything less than everything he can be just because he didn't have high expectations. In fact, I would hope he feels he can have precisely the effect on the game Buddy has had. Is it not clear to you that that is EXACTLY what we need? And once again... like I said... I won't CRUCIFY the kid for not being that. I'll be satisfied if he's the Pavlich or Riewoldt of 2012-2022. Oh dear. I don't rate Maxy. I hope you're not being prophetic, but that's a debate for another day. Oh dear. How you can't see you're just picking and choosing statements to support a conclusion you've already made up is what gets me. I'm using the opinions of dedicated, lifetime AFL people like David Parkin and you're telling me I'm following the leader, and that Parkin, by sharing an opinion with the masses is somehow, like them, unintelligent? I'm all for questioning the assumed wisdom in ALL walks of life... But I've done that... and in all my analysis, year after year, I can't buy that there's any substitute for a good, reliable, game-breaking big-man in attack. That much I can agree on. I'm neither here nor there on those kids, and I defer to the recruiters knowledge which is clearly greater than yours or mine. But once again you've glossed over the fact that that's PRECISELY what we did with Stef Martin. recruited a guy who can't kick, and tried to find a home for him. Mate, neither have you. I've explained all this already... perfectly logically and without getting bogged down in statistical analysis that you've shown a propensity to reading to suit your arguement. I say the Dogs are only third because they haven't got a tall... you say they are top 4 because they have their game-plan... You say WC won a flag with no KP forwards... I can say they won it with the best midfield in (my) living memory (better than Brisbane's IMO) and only just snuck in, when they should have won two by a long way, and would have had they had a decent tall option. I tried o explain how quoting stats only puts us in more of a holding pattern. I'm giving up here. If you can't find my facts and logic in the above posts then you're blind. It's there mate... you're just shutting your ears and yelling loudly. I wasn't trying to change your mind mate. Have a closer look. And in case it's escaped your notice... so far you've offered nothing but empty words too. I've offered examples of KP players, good defences, the effect a decent pair of targets makes on straightening a team up, historical analysis (which you dismiss as "old news") and contemporary footy analysis (which you dismiss as "following the leader"). You have done the same thing... and BOTH of us have offered words... and lots of them... but still just words. As far as I can tell it's a simple case of... if I don't agree with you... no matter WHAT I say, factual or otherwise, you disagree so it MUST be wrong. Hey. There's nothing wrong with that... Tell me you didn't go a big rubbery one when Jacky boy donned the red and blue? I've said it over and over, and I'll say it one more time. I think the more the game changes the more certain things stay the same. I believe that a long-term Big boy, or a number of them would be a tonic for our off field situation as well as on field. The big goal-scorers win the big matches and, looking at the Hawks, they bring the crowds rolling in... which is something we need. Not a Port Adelaide one-off. A long sequence of GFs and premierships. You believe I'm wrong. I look forward to seeing who is right... Not claiming without a time machine, that one of us is wrong. Jacky boy. My eye is one you...

I just realised... this should be in the drafting section... Mods please relocate if you wish.

Ok... So next year we won't be able to recruit from Queensland... which is something I can handle. Particularly seeing as many of the early big name's aren't Queenslanders. So we'll get a crack next year at our third bottoming out year in a row, then after that hopefully we won't be relying on the draft as much as we were this, last and next year.... Theoretically. But does anyone else think the concessions seem a bit, I dunno, steep? If it works the way its supposed to it could be the thing that costs us when we return to the finals, where we belong.

Weren't we after LJ with pick 17? Then Blease or Strauss at 19?

So do we have a definitive word on what's happening with this yet? Does the new team just take the Queensland talent in 2009, then take the big draft picks in 2010? Is that right? Does anyone know exactly what those picks are? Has it even been announced? Or are they saving that particular chestnut for later in 2010, around the end of the season so they can customise it to better suit the new club? I've heard conflicting reports. I heard they'd miss out on pick one if there's a PP going before the first round... I've also heard some weird things about the order of picks... something like picks 2,3,5,7,10,11,12,15,17,18,19 etc etc... or something silly like that. Can anyone confirm if they've actually set in stone what's happening?

Yeah... Cos Cam Bruce has been a terrible player for MFC, hasn't he? Yup... I'd much rather a kid that never gets a game than a B&F winner who's played hundreds of them... Can you join the recruiters please? I'm sure you'll recommend we go for one of Altona's under 18 netball squad for our first pick next season.

You can do a quick look at how many players we have over 25 and the analysis is just as interesting and pleasing... Bruce, Davey, Green, Jamar, Miller, Robertson, Wheatley, Whelan, McDonald. Of those McDonald, and maybe Robbo, possibly Whelan... and if he has a bad one Jamar might be gone within a year due to retirements, delistings, injury etc etc. And of your 22 players there, even if only 2/3rds of them came through, we still have a strong core all the same age.

Yeah, Dunstall came on the radio around the time he was filling in as CEO and fessed up that that was why they did it. I'm not sure, strictly speaking, that they recruited for "type" (they needed KP players) as much as they recruited for a "monopoly" (they knew they'd have the only good ones)... Could have turned out to be untrue... hell, it still could, but so far it seems to have been fairly well right on.

Hang on a sec... what are the ones in red? And what is this in aid of?

Cheers Rhino... Yeah, I must admit from about chapter 3 I discovered we were going round in circles... I kind of lost interest after that. The complete absence of sleep last night didn't help either... I reckon one day I'll look back at this time and wonder why i spent so much ime on 'land... Whichever one of us is proven right, who cares? Neither of us will remember this far back... Oh well, it's all good fun, and you learn a few things on the way. Things like, don't respond to a 10,000 word post with an even longer post. My professor's PHD thesis had less in it than some of my posts...

That's extraordinary... I think you've COMPLETELY missed my point in just about every paragraph. I didn't say I disagreed that we needed a flexible defence... one that can rebound and defend, switching gears as the coach sees fit. I don't recall disagreeing with you there. What we disagree on is the recruiting of quality KP players, their importance in the game, as well as our difference in opinion as to the quality of our current players... I would fully expect that to call a KP defender quality he has to have the ability to rebound. Not sure what you're so up in arms about there. Here's where you completely missed my point. I couldn't give a flying fig about a team that comes third. You want to be as good as these guys? Then good luck to you. In my opinion... and this is all I'm saying here that it's my opinion... Having crafty nifty ways of reinventing your squad to effectively be competitive is all well and good, but I'm sick of being also rans. You can be the best team in the league and still lose a GF. I don't want to be good enough to compete... we've been hat for years. I want a flag, pure and simple, and to do that I believe you have to do it in the recruiting stages.... If our club is looking at the Eade model and trying to emulate it then we've lost before we've begun. We're trying to emulate a squad that came third... I think the one big thing you can't escape is that if you have enough quality it doesn't actually matter how you coach. We're bottoming out three years running, and it's critical that the TYPE of players we get are n a position to damage sides. If we recruit 3 mids and a ruckman like Cox, Cuz, Judd and Kerr then you have a champion midfield that makes everyone look good. Likewise if you recruit players like Buddy and Roughie up the other end, you have a forward line that wins by sheer weight of scoring. You see? We're both right here... My point? It's just a matter of opinion. Here again... I can quote simple stats. Hawks = 1 flag, and their great strength on the ground comes from the forward line, particularly their KP players... Geelong have a KP forward that, while maligned, played like a star in the year they won their flag in Mooney. And speak to ANY Geelong fan and they would have killed for a player of higher quality that a Lonergan. They actually claim that's what they needed to get over the line. You see? I mean the only difference here is our opinion, and we can both quote stats and what you call "proof" til the cows come home. Don't presume to tell me what I "know." Miller kicked 28 goals and he was "excellent?" Not one player on our list was "excellent." Scratch the surface for five seconds here and you'll see that Miller is still not the answer. He's not Neitz's left bootlace... and that's something "you, I and everyone else knows." Now before you get all "emotional" as you call it, understand that I like Miller for his strengths, and am fully aware that he is a required player for a number of reasons. Chief among them that he creates a contest, which is something our small forwards desperately need. Do you think Miller would walk into the forward line of any of the top 4 teams? I doubt he'd even get into the KP bereft dogs to be honest. How can you expect me or anyone else to take you seriously when I claim that Miller's problems form wise contribute to my lack of respect for his impressiveness as a player... and you have the gall to say I'm trying to "win an arguement?" Mate.. I couldn't care less about the arguement, but I won't be told I'm in a contest here when all I've done is quoted a sensible reading of recent stats and form. You think I'm alone in questioning Miller's credentials? Open your eyes... And don't you be afraid to take your hand off it. Miler kicked 28 goals in a 16th placed side... don't keep clinging to hero worship when you're 16th on the ladder with easily the worst list in the league (albeit a young one). Now, with your clear and unabashed love for the guy in mind, I'll give you the fact that the guy tries hard and deserves to be in the side... And I admire him for working on his disposal, being a pillar of strength and flying the flag against the nigglers in the league, and for his natural on-field leadership.... and given his age he'll be an important player in a dark time... but we're not going to win a flag BECAUSE of Brad Miller. If he's our only target up forward with a gun midfield, you can bet we'd be knocking on the door of 3rd... and that's it. Brad will be a sensational player if he can go back to being what made him so exciting early in his career. A 3rd or on a good day, a 2nd tall. And for that I'll always be on his side... but unlike some supporters, I won't get over excited about his footy until he gives me something substantial to hang my hat on. Not being a FF in a 16th placed side with as appalling a forward line record as ours this year. Jesus Christ. Calm down for five seconds... You're saying recruit the forwards to beat the defenders... I'm saying recruit the forwards that can outscore the opposition's forwards. Worked for the Hawks. I can say you show interesting logic and you turn around and carry on like I haven't thought about it because I don't agree? Sit down, have a cup of tea, and try opening your mind for a minute. I believe... and this is with your point considered... that if you recruit a forward that can undercut the strengths of the best defence in the league, all that will happen is another defender will come along that can undercut HIS strengths... Buddy is a good example of what you're talking about. He's a player who's athleticism makes other defenders' strengths irrelevant. But surprise surprise.... he's a high draft pick key position player... So you see, if I ask for the next Buddy Franklin (in quality, not in terms of the "type" of player he is i.e. athletic) what I'm asking for is a KP forward that is that good at the game of footy he can make an entire list look dangerous. Simple really... Feel better now? Go wash your hands... You wanna discuss footy then let's discuss footy. Leave the childish jabs to the teenagers. Who's doing the "point scoring" now? You're better than that.... Oh Jesus. Ok. Well then let me call it what it is. Instead of unparalleled might let me say they're the best forward line in the competition by a looong way. Make you feel better? Good. Change anything? No. And shutting them down once counts for nothing.... how convenient it is that you missed the fact that I mentioned earlier they didn't try. If we were a threat they would have gotten the car out of 1st gear. Please tell me you're not one of those fans that believes that just because we pushed the best forward line in the comp and tested them ONCE that means we're not too far off it. It happens every season because when the best teams come up against the worst teams they find it harder to lift and take them seriously. When our defence pushes the best 4 forward lines EVERY time we play them in a season then I'll be more pleased... Actually, if we were as good in defence as you say, why did we finish 16th? Buddy is a good player... just good eh? And as for being susceptible to pace, every player has their openings and weaknesses... and for the record, opposition coaches will sus him out now and his career will only get harder, but so what? He's still a champion and will still win more games off his own boot than he's required to. Getting analysed happens to every great player, and it's an important rite of passage for any great KP player. But Hudgton and Garland could have beaten him simply because he wasn't on his game, or had a niggle, or was distracted... or most likely.... he didn't consider it a requirement for him to win the game for his club... and you know what? He was right. He barely lifted a finger that day and his team still won. Maybe if he was needed he might have put a bit more effort in. And where the HELL did I claim Rivers and Martin won't surpass Warnock?!!!! cheap statements to score points? What the hell have you been reading?!! Rivers is our best defender in about 8 different ways... Martin has been encouraging but has to cross many more bridges before he's a trustworthy premiership defender... which is what we should be looking for him to be. And besides... again... you're getting all excited about a bunch of KP defenders that let in more score than just about anyone this year!!! I agree wholeheartedly that it's encouraging considering that they're just young still... but Jesus... I'm not going to lock them in their positions for the next five years if they don't make further improvement. Sure. Late picks, of course... But you have to have a full compliment, don't you? If picking up KP players late in the draft was such a bad thing, then Warnock and Martin wouldn't be the golden boys you regard them to be now would they? Also I think it' healthy to have pressure on your 22 from the young guys coming up behind them. Yep... look, I'm right behind these guys... I'm just not going to get unrealistically positive YET. If you bring in defenders at their age you expect them to get beaten. What you need is to see if they're learning and getting better. Which they are. This isn't a massive shot I'm taking at our current list... I actually think it's not too far off being the list we want... I just hope that should a player fall by the wayside, the club won't cling to playing him when he's obviously not good enough. Emotional drivel. Fair dinkum... the hard-on you have for the teenagers we just recruited, and the rash assumption that they're the right direction to go before they've even got their drivers' licences... THAT'S emotional drivel. And if you have to have it spelt out for you.... we have had soft outside mids... Johnstone, Bruce, Green (who has become hard, credit where credit's due) Yze... Are you seriously claiming that we've had a reputation of being a hard side? Oh ... and now you know why I want KP players do you? I'm focssed on an era, sure, but it's not ND's. It's the current one. All these other sides have these great KP players... we just lost ours... and while we had him we still weren't good enough. I now want more than one. And it's not the ND era, it's the Schwartz/Neitz era. We looked dangerous when they looked like our future, and make no mistake, Ox's injury had more impact on our fortunes than history would record. As for the whippet who kicks straight... Johnstone was no whippet, but he was quick and a great kick. Yze likewise wasn't slow, and in his day was an awesome kick. What? Are you talking about Blease? He's the only super quick one. I'll name you five fast or good sized (not super fast or super tall) super skilled players... Yze, Johnstone, Bruce, Green, Sylvia, even Powell had kicking issues but was effective... Anything else you need? Sounds like it. But it isn't. Has the game changed Sure... it's evolved... but that rule hasn't. You could argue... but I think Buddy would prove you wrong. Fevola is a FF... Buddy plays all over the joint. Notice that I rarely use the term CHF. KP forward is now a more apt term. If you commit to playing a CHF and FF you become predictable. Hence the use of tall forwards who can lead simultaneously, play one deep one rangy... That's where the game has evolved... but shock, horror... they're still there, and all of a sudden there's two of them kicking 100 goals in a season. But no... you're right... MEANINGLESS position... See above... CHF isn't dead, it's out of vogue. Like I said, there's a difference between saying CHF and KP forward. Nice Scrubs quote there... can't disrespect that. What I can disrespect is the sentiment. As far as I'm concerned... and I would hope as far as any dees fan is concerned I would be trying to recruit 3 KP forwards of better quality than Buddy. If just coming second or third best keeps you happy then by all means, follow a mediocre club. I want us to be the best, an if we had that kind of culture, maybe we wouldn't be the basket-case we are. Maybe we'd have a coach like Matthews who is unwilling to compromise. The area that you should be accepting is by not crucifying a payer for NOT being Buddy. You recruit and expect them to be the best ever... when they inevitably don't end up that good... you accept it. But it doesn't mean you don't shoot for the stars before you hit the moon. You've "shown" me nothing. You've offered your opinion. Big deal. Some of your logic is as big an over-positive load of "steaming horse turd" as anything I've seen on here. Unlike you, I'm able to see that we both have opinions, can both offer "proof" as you call it that we're right... Unlike you, however, I'll welcome all opinions... Unrealistic expectations?!!!! What ARE your expectations anyway? Do you actually want to win a flag? Or do you just want to be competitive again like we were under Daniher? Oh and yeah, recruiting the next Carey will never get us "around to winning a flag"... Cos Carey never won one did he? And where did you get the 4 years thing from? Recruit a great spine in a quick enough period.... say 2-3 years.. the n when they mature and play their best footy you'll have about 7 years do fill in the midfield gaps!!! Look at the Hawks!! Their big name KP players are all 23!! Maybe since Brisbane teams haven't had COMPLETE great spines... but they've had sensation KP players... Port had Tredrea, Geelong had Mooney (who played a great season, even if he's working class), Hawks had Roughie and Buddy, WC had Glass, Sydney had Hall and their great defensive talls. Ok I tell you what Axis... I'll stick to believing KP players are important and are, in fact, KEY players, and you stick to thinking lightning quick midgets win you flags, and that the modern game is so far removed from footy in the past that you have to recruit completely differently than we did within the last decade... we'll mix and stir over the next few years, then leave to set... and we'll see how the end result tastes. I'm pretty confident KP players will be as important in the next 10-15 years as they have been though the entire... history... of the game. But that's just me. Actually, that's not just me, that's actually the opinion (this steaming pile of horse turd) of a lot of people, you'll find... Oh my god.... Ok... so we'll just no pick anyone then, shall we? Are you claiming a decent midfielder will be MORE likely to come out of this pick? And before you get all hoighty toighty consider that your golden boy Miller came pretty late in the draft and is not considered a good kick... Martin equally is one of your "embarrassingly" poor kicks... and you seem to be going all goey when their names are mentioned. Try loosening your grip for a second Axis and reeeeead what I wrote. ANY pick this late is going to be highly speculative. That doesn't mean we don't give it a crack. Your logic just doesn't stay consistent. If Martin and Miller are such great solutions as you claim, then why are you so unwilling to have a punt on these kids? Wish I could say the same. I'm done posting on this, I've wasted enough time and it's clear you're more interested in your soap-box than any considered debate, which is a shame as you seem to have a lot of general knowledge. As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty simple... you can condense all this into a simple few sentences. We believe opposite things. I believe that the right direction to go is to recruit tall first, then get the best smalls as timing is the key. You can recruit whatever model you like, and if they mature together, you stand a fair chance of giving it a damn good shake. If you recruit as good a KP player as you can find, and they end up being as brilliant as Buddy, then that's twice as scary for the opposition as recruiting, say, the next Judd. I'm also quite happy with the players we've taken given what was on offer, but am disappointed that we've gotten as far into our rebuilding drafting as we have and haven't got the spine I was hoping for. You on the other hand believe the opposite. That streaming through the middle with skinny kids who have laser-guided boots is what will get us to a respectable position, and that that kind of innovation is what will catch the rest of the league napping. And I have to say mate, you could be right. It could work. In fact it will, as we won't be stuck where we are forever. What I want though, for the simple reason that our club is in bad shape, is to be competitive first, then dangerous, then a GF team, then a premiership team, then a MULTI premiership team. I want LASTING success... and I want to be sure that we've dotted every I and crossed every T on the way there. This last draft, to me, did that as well as I could have hoped for given all the KP talent I'd have liked was gone by our second pick. But it won't assuage my disappointment at not having the long-term project players in place NOW for their first pre-season.

I never thought I'd see these words... I can't believe it. Ben Cousins... role model. I just... I'm speechless. Even with your caveat about him staying clean... and your "opinion" that he will. What "opinion" is that exactly? Seriously, if you have actually dealt with addiction yourself (I know I have) or if you have a background in drug rehabilitation, then I'd take it more seriously... but if you don't, what are you basing your opinion on? Just a guess? Fair dinkum, if that's what most people are basing their choice to recruit him on, then I'm at a loss... Yup. Get him at 25 and drug free and he could instill a culture... Crawford needed a whole career to inspire his team-mates and he was regarded as one of the great trainers. 2 years of Byron, a season of Moorcroft... They didn't change a single thing... Byron played some good footy, then contributed, with his attitude and laziness, to the axing of one of our most important identities. Moorcroft took his paycheck and ran... AT BEST!!! This is all that Cousins would bring to the club. And that's if he's clean... that and a handful of on-field highlights. Oh, and it would contribute to our reputation as an old-folks home for has-been footballers in need of a final payment for their mortgage...

We don't have the resources or clout to protect him from the media, we don't have the team to offer him a chance to get to finals again, we'd win a few more matches thus weakening our position in the draft, and just because SOME people are in a forgiving mood in regards to his condition doesn't mean they're right. How can SO MANY PEOPLE just make this enormous assumption that the guy will come back and be a saint?!!!! (not a saints player) He could come in and spend two years showing the kids how to train hard, and it's equally as likely that a bunch of 17 year olds will turn around and follow in his footsteps in more ways than one!!!! How could any regular footy fan be so sure that the guy will be clean, unaffected by drugs, and against them COMPLETELY. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want drugs, or the reputation of drugs anywhere near my club. I'm not stupid enough to think that it doesn't go on, or hasn't in the past, but I'm not about to condone the recruiting of a player that has a history with it and has shown little if any genuine remorse about his drug related past. MFC is in a precarious position and needs, more than at any time in its history to make every step it can towards a flag, lest we fall away again and become even closer to relocation or merger. The Collingwoods, and Essendons of this world can take these risks and wear the damage if there is any, but not us. And don't give me this wishy/washy addiction malarkey... No offence, but I don't care if it IS a sickness... He can go and be sick somewhere else. I don't wish him any harm, and hope he gets better and sets about repairing the damage he's done to his reputation AND the delicate fabric that is Aussie Rules footy, but I have to be honest I'm not about to put the guy ahead of MFC... It's as simple as that. Recruiting a 30 yr old to a club that is nowhere near a flag, full of impressionable kids... Jesus I worry about MFC fans sometimes.

See now, why would you post that?

I know... it's so insulting isn't it? "Ooooh... we're West Coast... We're entitled to take whatever West Coast players we want because we're better than you... were you not aware?" And anyway, relocating a player from Western Australia costs the same as relocating one from country Victoria if you don't count the airfare. So according to this bunch of sulky teenage girls, the demons should only recruit players that are a commute from Casey. From now on gentlemen, according to WC recruiters we are only to look at players from the S.E. suburbs and let the rich clubs take the players from the rest of Australia... Hear of a good kid playing for Preston in the ammos? You might wanna call long distance to the other side of Australia cos THEY can afford to offer the kid a career... unlike the demons who are SOOOO far away. Wankers.

Yeah, that was the game I said not to mention where Garland went with Buddy. Oh, and had we actually turned up with a midfield, the Hawks would have... umm... tried. They never got out of first gear. But yes, we were good that day. Showed some heart. Gave the fans something to be proud of. Hodge is the exception... he's an exception to MOST rules actually. Mitchell was a player that was never supposed to be what he became. If we could turn a mid range pick/rookie pick into a player like that you'd have to say the footy gods were trying to sleep with us... Oh and Crawford, I'm not sure you can say he had the influence in 2008 of any one of 20 of their other players.... So yes, exceptions to the rule, but the rule is players like Young, Ellis etc etc... who are still just little kids, but can, even at their age, be premiership players playing the role they play in the Haws' side. For example... Buddy, at Ellis' current age, wasn't having the impact Ellis is now. Mmm. Well there you go. Poor disposal is just cancer... seems to make all fans and recruiters run in the opposite direction. My thing with that is that Martin's disposal is hardly incredible. Likewise Rivers... is there room to blood another stopping defender? At that kind of pick, we can afford to overlook a few gremlins in the works... My fingers aren't. See now... why couldn't I just do that? You're my hero monty. As with most of our side we seem to have some really good second and third tier players. I've said it 15 times now, but PJ has to be among the best resting ruckmen around... he's pretty much the perfect backup... fills in in the ruck without dominating... has the pace and endurance to run all over the ground. Likes playing in defence and attack, and has shown something at both ends... GREAT kick of the footy at goal and to a man. What more could you ask for? If he had Cox taking the ruck, and say Neitz and Robbo 4 or 5 years ago in the forward line he'd be making Mick Malthouse and his mates go even balder than they are. Silly's another one... He played a ripping game from defence early this year, and is at home on a wing... apparently they want him in the midfield this year and when he goes forward, he's devastating on his day. If he had some tall timber taking the heat around him, imagine what a thorn he'd be in opposition sides? Actually... thorn? He'd be a bloody great branch... Going on that post though, I reckon that gaping hole you highlight with your last sentence has to be addressed NEXT year... early word is Butcher, but we'll worry about that when the current bunch are closer to growing some pubes before we start measuring them up for their demons gurnsey. Trying to recruit our second big-name tall from one pick in the PSD is a bit unreliable... if we gave a bunch of late picks a chance, then maybe... but I'd prefer to go with the best KP player two drafts running... But again, that's just me.

Jesus. I did it again. Man, demonland will be better off when my vacation here finishes.

The problem with the dogs is that their backline is full of running players. They're more rebounders than defenders. It's a choice tha Eade makes and it's one of the things that contributes to their innovative and unique style. (will come back to this in the "always behind" part later) That's an interesting point. Firstly, you see the dogs being in the top three as a "good" thing. I don't see a team streaking up the list of flag chances to third, I see one that chronically can't make it into the top two, and to make a GF would have to hope for injuries to the Hawks or Cats. So this is simply a case of you saying the glass is half full and me sayng it's half empty. Point two: we have Watts, yes, and I'm hugely excited... but on what planet is Miller proven? He had a passable/good season last year in the face of overwhelming opposition. But until he kicks 60+ in a season as the main focal point up forward, he won't be "proven." And as for Newton, right now he's more likely than not to end up being an absolute nothing in AFL. That's a fact. I love him and hope against hope... But I'm a long way from putting money on the guy being a sure-thing. Now, that last sentence is a doozy. I never said we have to kick goals the same way Hawthorn do. No-one's going to recruit an athletic freak like Buddy anytime soon. What I'm saying is a simple question of centimetres. An athletic tall, of the like of Watts, would be 4 times as dangerous if he had an even taller, stationary, wrestling gorilla in the square. Watts can't be expected to dominate 22 rounds out of a year plus 3 finals. He needs to have a spell and that's where another reliable tall comes into it. And no, that's not Miller or Juice... yet. And your philosophy of kicking goals against their backline? interesting point, and I'll give you that... But I would remind you that we're not at match day right now. We're talking recruitment. And what we need is to kick a whoooole lot more on the scoreboard. We need a reliable 100-point per game set of forwards with backups. It's so rare that teams win flags without kicking big scores. We will never be Sydney, simply because we don't play at the SCG a lot. My goodness. I just can't see how you've come to that conclusion. A strong and flexible defence (Geelong) allows you to get done in the GF by the Hawks. You're ABSOLUTELY kidding yourself if you look at a backline of Martin (kid), Rivers, Garland, Frawley (lots of these - "?") and Warnock (who?) and go against the unparalleled might of Buddy, Roughie and Williams. I mean, on what planet will that backline ever win a flag against that forward line? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being positive, and sticking with those kids... but fair go. Garland has had one good season, and Rivers hasn't had much more. Oh, and before you quote Garland's game against Buddy as evidence we can shut them down, that was one game. Garland has to beat his opponents, and SMASH them as often as Buddy does before I start comparing them. Aaaah yes... The follow the leader thing. I'm a big supporter of this theory. I always word it differently. The best coaches, and pretty uch the only truly successful coaches innovate. Look at every flag of the past 10 years... they all came from coaches who tried to do something to change the status quo. It's a requirement. MFC fans (the thinking ones, anyway) know this better than anyone. Neale copied the previous year's premiers year in year out until a year came along where he just didn't have the cattle to implement Sydney's gameplan. It's a great way to end up 4th or 5th every year. My problem with this logic? Were is DB innovating? You show me. How does recruiting small running players redefine the game? Silky skilled outsiders and grunty one paced insiders... Doesn't that sound familiar? Sounds to me like MFC for the last ten years actually. And you're kidding yourself if you think recruiting what you think will be the game's best CHF is "following the leader." It's not a fad, or in vogue... having a great CHF is unquestionably an ironclad rule of the AFL. As Parkin said, if you have a good KP player... you play them at CHF. Since the dawn of Australian rules, CHF has always been the most important position on the ground. So what is DB doing then? I don't know that he's redefining the game... but perhaps the side is heading in the direction of the Essendon sides during Hird's time... DB played under Sheeds, and it looks to me like we have the new Hird anyway... Maybe DB won't need to reinvent? Maybe he'll have the players that he can simply coach around? If we go badly enough in these few years, we could have the stars required... that is my hope... and similarly it is my hope that if we recruit 6 stars in this time, that 2 of them are KP forwards... players as effective (but not necessarily identical to) as Franklin. As above. I'm not trying to advocate recruiting the next Buddy. I want the guy who'll outstrip Buddy as he declines. Perhaps a guy that plays closer to goal, and kicks straighter. I'm not stuck in 2001. I'm sticking to a rule that is as I said, an absolute law of the game. And if DB's gameplan was to emulate the dogs and recruit exclusively for running players, I'd be extremely concerned about our future. Oooh. Let me just adjust my catheter just quickly.... Ok... Yeah... you see there again, Neale believed he had the team to go ahead. But with his exciting young players in the midfield in Ooze, Bruce, Green... He knew he needed to have an effective group of KP players quicksmart, because they take time to develop. In the end, it went nowhere. Which to me highlights even more the idea that we should establish a good, solid, perhaps GREAT spine before we even start thinking about a midfield... and that it definitely has to go in that order - spine then midfield. The BALANCE then comes in the years following that, where you bring in young players who take less time to establish themselves. At which time the KP players are in their mid twenties and have grown into their bodies... And the best part of this is that you don't suffer from mediocre success while you're recruiting. Your bottoming out period isn't interrupted by a finish in, say, 9th or 7th. Interesting. I'm starting to sound a bit depressing here, but I think this is one area I don't share your enthusiasm or point of view. Davey isn't playing in the forward lie (would love it if he did), Wonna I love, but I'm not sure he'll be the next Wizard/Flash... Maric I'm excited about but don't know a whole lot about him, Jetta from what I've heard is a defender/mid, Bennell is the same... and as for Blease I'm not sure he's a forward at all. I see him more as a wingman. He'll kick goals more because of his pace and the distance he covers (a la Johnson over at the pies) but they'll be from the midfield... I'm not sure he'd be a great "target" for our defence or midfield to be looking for up the ground. Hmmm. I think what I mean is more that you spend your early picks on the best KP talent so that the saturation only happens when you're looking for your 2nd and 3rd talls. In our case I think the point is actually moot. I reckon we have a number of good 3rd talls running around, like Bate and Miller as you suggest. I like Gaertner and Deboer personally, along with Sibosado who would be interesting. I don't think we would put any hope in a PS pick, so a KP player we can just develop over time is a safer and less expensive option in terms of list space. Actually, the three players were around, I think, the 40-50 mark in the phantom draft. Big sliders. But I guess they're always going to be faulted in some way.

That's ultimately an ultra-positive post, claiming we have quality we just don't have. Maybe you're right, maybe you don't need Roughie and Buddy to win a flag. But for the next 6 years or so you're likely to have to fight your way through a team with those two players. Your point about picking up a mediocre tall, that we need midfielders first. I would say that considering midfielders come on quicker, you can recruit them later in a rebuild. And should the players we picked up turn out to be outside players, then we're back to exactly the place we were in 2002-2006. And for the record as silky skilled as these guys we brought in seem to be, I'm not sure any of them have the scope to be a complete midfielder of the ilk of Ablett/Judd/Cousins/Kerr/Power... Perhaps Strauss could get there. Disagree. It never worked for the Dogs. And if you're going to deliberately play a small forward line you'd better hope your players have the skill, brains, pace, fitness and luck with injuries that they don't play a team that can keep up with them.

Oh dear.... no no no. Have you seen Martin kick? I watched him at Sandy a bit early on, and the guy is not the kind hat you'd want trying to create in the forward line, or finish. He'll never play forward unless we're EXTREMELY desperate. Mark my words. Maric is still not quite ready to be playing 22 rounds there. Maybe out of a pocket a bit this year? But certainly not full time. Much prefer to see Sylvia played there, assuming he doesn't finally make an entrance to the midfield. Dunn isn't looking remotely like a forward yet. I'd like to see him play there and succeed... but he' a fair way off it. Watts won't play a serious role as a KP forward for a while yet. I can only see him pop up as a wingman or flanker for 80 minutes a game a few times this year. Unless he does a Morton and makes himself more needed. Davey hasn't played in the forward line for a majority of match time for a while now. I'd love to see it happen though. Miller is right, but bate is to deep. Bate on a flank or as a backup CHF. I'd have Garland go forward... but I get the feeling he'll be put back as soon as we start leaking... which may (I hope I'm wrong) detrimentally effect his future in the way it did Miller. However, in the old days KP forwards were told to play a season in the backline to get an idea of how defenders think, so that when they move forward, they are better prepared to combat them. Also, Newton has to play a bit this season. If he goes bad, scrapheap, if he shows a little, scrapheap... if he shows a lot we have a player or a trade option. Also like a plethora of forward rotations, including PJ...

Is anyone else kind of pleased to hear this? http://www.watoday.com.au/sport/naitanui-m...nbz.html?page=1 I was particularly interested in this part... referring to the recruitment of Jamie... gee they sound bitter. "It is interesting that Melbourne did that, perhaps lacking a little bit of funds to relocate kids, but that is what they chose to do and we move on."

Yeah. What can I say? I'll try not to let it happen again... but I can't seem to help myself. Many posters have cracked it at me in the past... Yup. I should explain a little further that I'm not disappointed AT THE CLUB for the lack of height taken. It's more that I'm disappointed that luck didn't fall our way. I always have maintained that beating VISY in rd 22, 2007 didn't hurt us, since this year we'd get our 3 good selections inside the first 20. Considering the depth I didn't mind that two of them were late in the top twenty. I was also not all that disappointed that we didn't end up trading for another pick in the teens, like last year. But looking at it now? Had we received picks 1 and 2 we'd have the best Ruckman and KP forward (recruits) in the land, plus Blease. Had we offloaded Green somehow for pick 14, like last year, then we'd have picked up Johnston who I think led contested marks in the carnival, even over our golden boy, which is saying something as Watts is seriously impressive in the packs. So looking at it now, this apparently deep KP draft was done and dusted by the time it got to us. Long story short, I'm just a bit miffed at the situation, not the recruiters... and I absolutely agree that on further assessment, there just wasn't decent tall cattle after Sydney, Geelong and the Hawks took Brown, Johnston and Shoenmakers in the selections before ours. With that in mind, it's easier to stomach that we went small, fast and skilled. In the end, what Im calling unfortunate now, might end up being a lucky break for the club. I'm of the opinion that the best coaches, the only GOOD coaches innovate. And while run and carry isn't exactly new, DB with the players he's taken, could reinvent it with an almost exclusively fast, dangerous midfield. I'm not holding my breath that it'll happen, but I'll give it every chance, and DB my full confidence, until it's proven a failure should that be what transpires. McKernan would have been ok I reckon. Roughie is an awful kick, and people say Franklin has kicking problems... I reckon it would have been more important that we had someone who likes a contest, and can bring the ball to ground and keep it in our attacking fifty. At the end of the day though, if we take the best KP forward next year, then we won't miss McKernan. I like your thinking Shaft, and didn't realise til recently that kicking accuracy was a trading tactic of the Hawks. Exciting stuff. Especially considering how MFC has been kicking of late.

Edited.... Thanks for that M2W.