dee-tox

Good discussion, and as most have stated unless the midfield can improve dramatically we won't be in contention for some time.

The list still has too many NQRs. Nicholson, McKenzie, Bail, Spencer, Joel Mac, Fitzpatrick et al. Then there's the rejects (Gillies, Pedersen, Sellar, Rodan, Byrnes).

From last season only Jones, Clark, Howe and Grimes were good enough.

Blease and Sylvia can do it, but not consistently. Jamar, Frawley, Garland, Davey, Trengove, Tapscott, Watts, Jetta need to do it now.

Viney and Toumpas are possibilities.

Still a looong way to go.

Score out of 10 for those who played :

Hogan - 3

N.Jones - 6

Watts - 3

Toumpas - 3

Frawley - 6

Byrnes - 5

Sylvia - 6

Dunn - 7.5

Rodan - 6

Garland - 3

Pederson - 2

Magner - 3

Nicholson - 2

Gillies - 5

Macdonald - 3

Sellar - 5

Grimes - 4

Evans - 3

Tapscott - 3

Davey - 3

Howe - 3

Jamar - 6

M. Jones - 3

Terlich - 4

All minus scores. They were bad!

The Wizard circa 2000.That'd be the kicking or creation of seven goals we need! We also need leadership so Garry Lyon or Todd Viney.Yze circa 2002 would be useful as well!.

For me, Jordie cannot start in the centre square. He is too one dimensional.

He needs to learn to keep his feet and spend less time on his hands and knees. And thirdly needs to learn to dispose of the ball properly. His kicking in particular is no better than the average country footballer. He has to find a way to hurt the opposition when we have the pill.

Under Daniher supporters went to games expecting to win. This is a far cry from what we've experienced over the past six years or so. We had no money, poor facilities but were respected. We turned rookies and low draft picks into players. Ward, Walsh, Collins, Bruce, Leoncelli, Rigoni, jmac etc. Above all, Daniher's results speak for themselves.

Field kicking needs work, but otherwise some good signs.

Good points raised about Jordie Mac. Spends too long on hands and knees. When he does get it he butchers it. I don't see AFL-standard qualities.

I can hear Stephen Quartermaine saying: Dom Barry you star!

I think I heard Gerrard Healy say that Jurrah was a non drinker when discussing the incident in the Alice. Either Gerrard made a very rare mistake or something has really changed in Liam's life over the last 12 months which has resulted in the Alice Springs business and now this.

I don't condone his actions but as Ben said above I can't pretend to understand what he is going through. I feel for the guy and hope everything works out for him but with his community so divided it will almost take a miracle.

You are right rjay. Liam was one of the few non-drinkers from the region.

BTW are you RR and DEE TOX his unofficial cheer squad; you'll probably notice I don't need anyone to reply on my behalf but you appear to think he does.

I find it amusing RobbieF how quickly you resort to name calling and insulting people when someone has an opinion other than your own. There are no right or wrong opinions in this world. Just opinions. The point Tim was trying to make is such actions only reflect on you.

Sloonie has been big enough to apologise. You might want to consider it as well.

What team do you support? We know it's not Melbourne.

Passionate Melb supporter Angry. Member since mid 80s. Been to over 450 games. Just think we need some perspective. I don't blindly follow what the club tells me. We made poor decisions that impacted on the culture of the club. In 2009 we were so excited about the possibility of getting a priority pick. FFS, our fans cheered when McMahon kicked that winning goal! We celebrated on Demonland! I find it weird that now we get all defensive when the AFL has a crack at us. We all knew what we doing was against the spirit of the game. It doesn't matter whether other clubs did it also. Perhaps they had a better culture in place? My point is by doing this, it gave the players an 'out'. A reason not to go 100 percent. Combine that with exiting leaders such as McDonald, Bruce etc and we become rudderless. The people who put that plan in place need to be held accountable for it. And in a perverse sort of way I hope they are booted out of football for ever. In Schwab's case it should have been when he got done for breaching the salary cap when Gutnick was president.

Sloonie, no wonder you want to resort to personal abuse, you keep defending the indefensible. Try and think objectively. We tried to cheat. We wanted the easy way. We acted without integrity. We thought getting the second best junior in the land would solve all our peoblems. It didn't work. It just further weakened a poor club culture. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. Shooting the messenger (the AFL, Caro, Brock McLean, whoever)is just delusional.

Lol

Do you even know what Tanking is?

Because you sound like a fool.

We didn't tank. We put development ahead of ladder position. It's called planning for the future idiot.

People like you get on your high horse and try to denigrate the club for doing what needed to be done for our future. Your view is too narrow to see this, or it is obstructed by hidden agendas.

The people that actually want the club to do well long term opened this list management era with open arms. You probably did too at the time, but now to suit your ignorant short sighted new sense of morality surrounding the issue you frown upon it.

What kind of supporter are you? Moron.

Do you seriously believe that our club's culture deteriorated under Schwab, who by the way didn't employ Bailey?

We have been so bad for so long it's a joke but you want to sheet all the blame to a couple of people. Lets also remember that the players you mentioned may have played in finals but realistically we were there to make up the numbers and didn't stand a chance of winning a flag.

Have a look at the difference between us and the three other clubs you mentioned and if you can't spot that difference then you're stupid.

Robbie F, you can call me stupid etc, it just reflects how delusional you are. How little you know about sport and how little you know about people.

And while we're at it, don't you find it ironic, that your username Robbie Flower, played with heart, integrity and loyalty. While what we saw under with Bailey, with Schwab pulling the strings was exact opposite?

I don't know why I am responding - ill humour you for a moment and say our actions constituted tanking. If so, is it your belief that Hawthorn, Collingwood , WCE and Carltons actions were not the same and were not tanking. (That question is rhetorical as the only answer is that if what we did is tanking then they are also tankers). please point to the catastrophic implications that the above teams have encountered - all in the finals and 3 premierships

It's a good point you raise. All i can say is the club's you mentioned at least seemed to have a better culture under Malthouse, Clarkson, Worsfold etc than we did with Schwab/Bailey. Those club's at least didn't exit the majority of their senior players, ones like Junior, Bruce etc that had played finals. Such a lack of leadership led to results like 186.

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

Pathetic puff pieces.

Garlett has a few similarities with Nicky Winmar who loved a drink and a smoke. Ended up one of the greats of the modern era.

They are either naive or stupid. Most likely the latter.

The disappointing thing is someone, probably Frawley being in the leadership group, should have thought about the consequences. Drinking copious amounts of beer, sitting in the notorious bay 13 with all the other bogans is just stupid. At some point someone had to say; this is not a good look. They know perception is everything when you are an AFL footballer. They would have been warned numerous times. The eyes of the world are the Boxing Day Test. It's one of the biggest events on the Australian sporting calendar. I'm amazed that that they thought this was a good idea.

Bogans.

Lame! Not even a smile I'm afraid.

If these things are made for PR purposes they best stop.

Funny as Demon supporters we now get excited about players that give their heart and soul. Admirable trait but AFL requires much more. Extremely limited footballer. Not sure you can have a guy that can only tackle lining up for the centre bounce.

Correction: Dawes was always in the firsts, except when injured.

As for "other teams' cast-offs", it seems too simplistic a reading of their situation for mine. Sellars has shown himself to be a good pickup, and probably a solid first-22 player, but was even more on the outer at Adelaide than Pederson was at North. Not to even start on the "cast-offs" that Sydney have managed to find a place for (and more) in a premiership team.

Not to keep coming back to one of my pet themes re all these trades, but they create competition within the team. Pederson and Gillies are certainly going to keep the likes of Dunn and Sellars honest, and even if that's all we get out of them (which I'd be suprised about), it'll be a step forward.

Is there more than one Sellar or are we talking about Peter Sellars? Birdie num num!

Fair enough question. Each team improves 5-10 percent each year. We have to improve 30 percent just to make an impact. Still 8-10 decent players away from making a real impact. Don't get expectations up too high.