Viney12

It's only an opinion and not fact. Mooney is just trying to increase his media profile like all the other sheep.

Mooney was just an average player in a good side.

in a couple of weeks/months things will change again.

How is he like all of the other sheep?

He's actually taken time to dissect out situation instead of just [censored] canning us like everyone else

I'm sorry but that 1 moment typifies Watts. We have to face it, and get him off the list sooner rather than later. He has not done much since he has been at the club and don't give me the age cr@p. Many young players put their head over the footy since the first day. Remember Cam Hunter. He weighed about 60kg's but he went in super hard. Lack of weight is no excuse for not going hard.

This really is a poor post

Hitting the contest can be learned

For a guy with size, agility, mobility, footskills, footy brain, marking ability, ability to read the play etc etc. you wait for the bulk and confidence to hit the contest

You don't throw away all of his positive attributes because he currently has no confidence to hit a contest

Imagine if St Kilda had done that with Goddard......wouldn't they look like a laughing stock?

Actually V12, I think that's probably the best thing about Mooney - he has been in the game recently enough to have an opinion, rather than only getting one from what he hears elsewhere and unwittingly regurgitating what is said in the media, that usually originates from a shock jock like David King.

Agreed

I disliked Mooney immensely as a player, I was commenting to a mate a couple of weeks ago how refreshing he is as a commentator

What diesel said.

I think most reasonable people already realise this, but it's nice to hear it reinforced, especially by someone who seems to have such a good grasp on the modern game.

Moons used the term "re-wire" once or twice in reference to how our players play the game.

It also had me asking a few questions myself, that I hadn't yet fully considered..

Some of the players on our list now seem incapable of playing defensively.

Especially more senior players.

Is this because that's the type of player they always were?

And they stuck around on the list because they were able to play that gameplan?

Or did they become like that after Bailey's coaching? Or both?

Did Bailey always intend to use that gameplan, and play and coach players accordingly?

Or did he find himself with a list where their strengths lay in this "front-running" brand of footy?

Did he actually waver himself and compromise his gameplan?

I imagine it was mostly Bailey and his gameplan, but not absolutely.

A lot of people talk about the senior players inability to adapt to the new gameplan, and it's quite possible they can't / won't (or at the very least are finding it a lot tougher)

What I think a lot of people also don't take into consideration is that the bulk of our young talent we are relying on (Watts, Trengove, Grimes, Blease, Strauss, Gysberts etc.) have only been coached Bailey (aside of course one preseason and 8 matches under Neeld)

People are expecting these kids to take to it like a duck to water, but it will take them time as well

Mooney basically said what we've all been saying, but good on him for doing so

Surprised at the Mooney love but it only takes a new voice and people are smitten. But he is only up against back slappers and mates of the media.

Terribly covered our game is by the majority of media. Cam Mooney wouldn't have given the time of day to any commentator giving opinion outside of the club while he was playing.

Pretty sure his opinion was that they are mostly a waste of time. Now he is one as the bills have to be paid.

I don't need his reinforcement to see what is going on at MFC. He is just offering an opinion like the rest if us.

What he has said here Mark Neeld and others have already said, where is the difference? Just a new voice making it seem clearer?

He could've taken the media path and just sunk the boots in more like they all have been (even supposed "supporters" in Sheahan comes out of "retirement" to stick the boots in)

At least he took a considered and measured approach to our plight

Who??????and where from???????

Use our 3 1st round picks on mids (J,Viney and 2 others)

Trade 2nd round pick to WC for a bloke like Koby Stevens. Good player, but finding it hard to get a game in their midfield

Offer up a package to Hawthorn of maybe player(s) (Sylvia?) and late picks for someone like Clinton Young

Float trading Bate to the Dogs (they wanted him last year - may have no interest now but could score us a late 2nd / early 3rd round pick to be used on a tall)

Target someone under free agency that will add some class (Goddard?)

However, this is probably a convo for another thread

It's clear to me that Neeld is willing to suffer pain this year due to your point on Year 1

At lot of coaches get the "luxury" of coming in and replacing a coach with a mature list (Chris Scott, Brenton Sanderson etc.)

Neeld has basically come in and had to change the ENTIRE program, as he saw it as not good enough to hold up in finals football (or even possibly make it to finals football)

There is a difference with what he is doing to what others have done

He's changing the game plan, radically. He's changing the training regime, radically. He's changing the players roles and mindset, radically.

A lot of people got a false sense of hope when Dean Bailey made the comment that whoever coaches Melbourne next year has a golden ticket to the finals

If the new coach kept the status quo, perhaps we would be in contention for the finals, but would we ever be in contention for a flag? Did we have the game plan for that?

Neeld clearly thinks not and has pretty much stripped everything back to the bare bones

I thought we saw a glimpse against Carlton on what is possible and what is to come

Yes, they didn't play their best football, but we actually saw some attack.

He's said it before, he is teaching them to master defence. Right now they're no good at a defensive game, but they have somewhat improved.

When they nail it, they will attack more

There's some dead wood at the club and we will see them gone at years end, and it could be drastic, a huge clean out

He will keep those than can / will play to his plan, he will draft those that can / will play to his plan

We have 3 guaranteed 1st round picks in this year’s apparent super draft. He will build a midfield from this draft IMO and teach and develop them on a fast track

I personally think we'll see improvement in the 2nd half of the year, we'll see massive improvement next year (wishful thinking perhaps but the way I see it)

"With a side that all pundits rate as much more talented than the Melbourne list and much closer to a flag."

This wasn't necessarily the case by ALL the pundits. Melbourne were considered to have one of the best lists going around and were considered a genuine Finals chance this year. To Take the next step .

Neeld is not in Lyon's league! Neeld has started his career and hastn't won a fight yet. Lyon has the runs on the board. Extremely stiff not to win two Grand Finals with the Saints. Trying to think of a boxing analogy here?? Help me out guys.

If Dees played Eagles today a 100 point loss would be considered as promising. Not fair to judge Lyon on the loss v Eagles today. Got to look at Big Picture.

To answer your Q IMO there is no comparism. LYON!

"Hardest team to play against this year"

Here are some comments after the the Melbourne game that are hard to argue with and from a more nuetral viewpoint.

• Brian of Jolimont Posted at 7:24 PM Today
  
  
  OK, let me put this in perspective before Mark "Mr. Man-Management" Neeld claims that Melbourne is beginning to get it together ... Carlton have been HUGELY over-rated and will fall into the eight but won't do any September damage. Melbourne, meanwhile, are still rudderless. Their second half today brought into sharp focus the magnitude of the mistake they made when they asked Garry Lyon to (in effect) choose the next coach. On this weekend's form GWS are a real chance to beat Melbourne - TWICE - before the season's over.
  
  
• Dave of Malvern Posted at 5:48 PM Today
  
  
  Dees are a disgrace. Years of poor management. No prospects, no good kids coming through. There will be a mass exodus at seasons end, who would want to play there. Dont blame the new coach not his fault rather years of arrogance. What to do? Merge with North seems the only solution.
  
  

Neeld never said the "Hardest team to play against this year"

He said he's aiming to coach "the team that's the hardest to play against in the AFL". "That means all over the ground, we're going to be the hardest to play against,"

His goal will take time

You seem intent on rubbishing Neeld, yet not taking into account he has not implemented a few changes, he has turned the entire club upside down, which clearly needed doing

Things on field don't look great right now, but surely he needs time to put his entire plan in place

The fitness alone will take longer than 1 pre season. As Misson said, they're still be flogged on the track NOW due to the fitness levels, this will be corrected in next pre season

You point to a "neutral" comment saying there will be a mass exodus at seasons end

I've been waiting for this supposed mass exodus to happen for the last 3 years

The reality of it is, is we have lost 1 player in this time, to an unprecendented offer.....a bloke that would've left any club he was drafted to for the amount of money he was offered

The day Watts gets 3 Brownlow votes I can guarantee there'll still be so-called supporters bagging him!

Absolutely

As if there aren't enough opposition supporters, media etc on Jack's back already, we have to hear it from our own supporters

Some have mentioned it, but it's amazing how most forget how soft and unaccountable Goddard was in his first 5 years

I reckon that's rubbish; Neeld was an assistant who wanted a Coaching gig and these know they might only get one crack.

Beggars can't be choosers and he wasn't going to turn down a gig if he got an offer.

Wilson's article in The Age today supports the idea that he was happy to go with whichever AFL Club offered him a job first.

Caroline Wilson's Article also states:

"With the Demons yet to re-sign Mark Jamar or Brent Moloney among others and both conceding they were fielding offers, McLardy also defended the decision to vote that pair, along with former captain Brad Green and Aaron Davey, from the leadership group."

Demons 2012 Leadership Group:

Who is that back row, 2nd from left?

Don't always believe what you read

"Everest"

So you're saying what exactly?

He wanted the bigger challenge?

Having trouble getting your head around it..?

No I get it, it's just ludicrous

We don't need to make any deals if we finish last - no team would be able to force us to use a pick earlier than our 2nd round, so any deal would be moot.

Further to that, I wouldn't be making any deals if we finish 2nd last that involved us not selecting certain players.

We don't know who GWS will want, and we don't want to be limiting who we can select.

What we would do, is hope GWS finish last instead of GC, so then we are in the position to offer the most of any other team for mini-draft pick 1, that being the offer of pick 2.

GWS want pick 2 to be "active", not tied to Viney, so they can acquire it - incentive to not nominate Viney.

They also want to get max value for their mini-draft pick 1 - incentive to do the deal.

And we essentially lose pick 2.

Pick 2 we can't then use, but it would be just like having to take Viney with pick 2, except instead of getting to keep approx pick 23, we get mini-draft pick 1.

A good deal for us.

Biggest load of convoluted garbage I've ever read

So according to your proposal, we trade pick 2 in a super draft for pick 1 in the 17 year old mini draft, and we end up with a kid who can't play for 12 months

We also use our pick on the 20's on Viney, meaning we don't have a shot at picking a good kid in the apparent deep super draft

If it comes to it, we just take him with pick 2, if not so be it

Otherwise, I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to satisfy anyone finishing below us (if that even happens)

Geez I wish we'd start winning some games so all of this nonsense became a non issue

Didn't Boak sign a 3 year extension taking him up until the end of 2013?

And this is exactly why we will be picking him regardless. End of discussion.

Agreed, has exposed form, we know what we are getting

No. No, that's not what I said. You're just changing the tenses to suit your argument. I said "So glad we got rid of him, yet still people were whinging about that trade." If you're gonna quote me, do it properly. "Were" is past tense, if we're getting all pedantic on phrasing.

Some MFC supporters whinged at the time. On these boards, on Demonology and in the mainstream media. Here is a small example of some of it - http://www.heraldsun...6-1225778906982

Apologies, read "were" as "are"

My bad

As I posted somewhere else, this is the first time in decades that I believe there is a coherent plan which will develop the team. Previously there may have been a lack of resources but I had no sense that there was a coordinated approach which would combine gameplan, fitness and personnel. Now I can see (metaphorically) the development occurring. Changing the gameplan, fitness and personnel takes time, but I feel much happier with what looks to me to be a plan for the future being implemented now.

Good post and I agree with you to a large extent

I think that for once, we got a brutally honest assessment from Neeld, Misson and Craig when they came in

I was shocked about what they said regarding where our fitness was at (I knew it was not great, but their assessment was damning beyond my belief)

Put up or shut up

Was trying to be nice, but you probably said it better

As long as JV's jaw and Mojo both repair 100% we will draft him. He has the toughness of his dad.

If there is a better draft choice than JV, he is going to have to be beyond exceptional.

Although the media told me Tom $cully was exceptional so i will not hold my breath.

We know how good Viney is. He has done the test drive.

His mojo repaired 30 seconds after the hit, telling the trainer where to go (that is, if his mojo ever left)

and I think you make an excellent point

Form in the jnrs doesn't always translate to the snrs

Scummy a perfect example of this

From the reports on how good he was, he should've blitzed from day one

To this day, there'd have to be questions on whether he should've even gone top 10

JV will have invaluable experience this year playing in the 2s, as well as training with the senior squad, learning the structures / game plan etc

We will not under any circumstances not select him

What do you want?

Credentials?

I'll simply state that you should open yourself to the possibility that a lot goes on that the media does not get wind of.

And i'll leave it there.

Of course I'm open to the prospect, but generally serial offenders get caught out often

I don't want anything from you, nothing you're willing to give

You won't give solid examples of his behaviour, you've just asked me to believe it

Well you should.

No offense, but on the back of what?

An anon internet poster I wouldn't know if I fell over in the st?

If it was the catalyst for change, yeah, why not?

The truth will out.

In the media fishbowl that footballers live in, I just don't believe his behaviour would go unnoticed / unreported for so long if it was as bad as you are eluding to

This was quite damning I thought from Cale's interview. I remember someone posting last year about this last year who had spoken to Morton and he felt he wasn't getting adequate feedback. I recall Warnock having a similar complaint.

Correct re Warnock

Said he was sent back to the 2's but wasn't told what it was he had to work on

The problem is we heard it all before when Bailey came on board, meanwhile players at other clubs at a similar age all seem to be developing fine.

I agree, its frustrating, but name the other team who had an absolute dud of a coach, who have a severe lack of senior leadership, who has now hired a new coach with the complete opposite gameplan that's doing well?

Well, here we are. Amidst the doom of the season we still must admit that the off-season recruitment of established names in footy development is a pleasing aspect to the Neeld era.

My concern is that many on here don't realise, or refuse to acknowledge, the need to let the more talented, if poor in performance and less mature in body, to have the time to use the expertise of Craig and Misson to turn their fortunes around.

There are no promises in this game but Morton, Watts, Bennell, and Bail are a few names that given the right advice can transform their bodies and give themselves a chance to succeed at this level.

And remember that this doesn't occur overnight - it is a project that takes a few years.

Do we still wish to delist Bennell? Do we still want to trade Morton?

List management decisions must be made I believe, with an eye to the new development dynamic.

I will admit this thread is a reaction to seeing Morton called a dud this morning - not on what he has done this season, but because of the previous dynamic that was not conducive to getting the best out of players.

Agreed

We were basically told by Neeld / Misson when they arrived that the teams fitness base was absymal on not up to AFL standard

This can't be changed with 1 pre season, it will take multiple pre seasons to see the benefit

We've been shocking this year, no one can hide from that, but to expect anything else whilst going through a new gameplan (which was the complete opposite of previous gameplan), new fitness regime etc is wishful thinking

We'll do poorly this year, but I think we'll start so see some major improvement next year and thereafter

NO. It was still an issue.

This wasn't a PR problem - it was a culture problem.

And it couldn't continue to go on like it was.

If I was working at the club and knew about it, I'd call triple M myself.

Be the catalyst for change.

You assume this was a one-off incident.

And told a complete and utter lie?