Viney12

I think everyone should watch Jack's highlight video from Round 13 vs. Freo (in my opinion his best game for the club - or at least very close to)

(sorry don't know how to embed youtube)

The reality is, we see Jack's strengths on display - he's a play maker, he's evasive, he's great at ground level and in traffic, and exceptionally agile for a guy his size

His attack on the footy is good and will improve - but to expect Watts to hit packs like Jon Brown is fanciful, particularly at this stage in his career (given his frame)

Sounds very much like the same thing Northey did when he marched through the front door.

Exactly what I thought

I don't share the angst on this thread regarding the comments on Watts. It's understandable that supporters want to defend their own, it's a natural emotion, but I too despair at Watts intensity and lack of physicality. But I am patient.

My own eyes tell me that Watts has a long way to go, so I'll hardly be outraged when Malthouse, Carey, Wallace and others make similar observations. And do supporters really think they know more than football people that have played in premierships ? You're delusional if you do. Tim Watson referred to Watts as a "floater" and that Koutifides was similar when he first started out. He thinks Watts will work it out. So do I.

Everyone knows Watts has talent, everyone knows he was drafted when he was still at school as a 17 year old, everyone knows he's a skinny tall, everyone knows that skinny talls take time, and I donk think anyone is "writing him off". They're simply making judgments that he's about to commence his 4th year and right now he doesn't show the urgency required to play as a key forward. They would have all seen the pace, the kicking skills off both feet, the unbelievable hands/ability beneath his knees, the smart decisions he makes, etc. But they'd also note the half hearted one arm marking attempts, the decision not to comit to some packs, the passive tackling efforts, not always displaying the work-rate required, etc.

Watts may have a really good year. I expect he'll have a better year than last and continue to show improvement. But I won't be up in arms if I hear, or read warranted criticism. Whether he likes it, or not, it goes with the territory of AFL footy, especially if you're a former no. 1 pick.

Just as I won't complain if Watts is massively praised this year I won't complain if observations aren't as glowing. I'd be hypocritical if I did.

You make some valid points but I disagree with this

Commentators and football fans have already labelled him the wrong # 1 pick and not up to it

Leigh Matthews said after about his 5th game or so, he's done nothing to show he's worthy of pick one

They may know he was drafted at 17 and skinny and and and and......but they are failing to give him the due leeway before sticking the boots in

There is a certain venom and bile when people (mainly outside of our club) discuss Watts - it's almost like a disdain for him

How long has it taken Hawkins to become an effective player and he started with a much more mature body

And let's face reality - Hawkins had a purple patch in a grand final against an injured opponent

The way the fans and the media are fawning over Hawkins after that patch of form shows the fickle nature of the fans and media

I was at the game and went through every emotion possible. Praise the lord that I was close to the bar. But to say we are different now, we have changed and we are hungrier then ever to win is complete bollocks to me. A win over the filth in a bank cup game doesn't mean squat to me. Show me during this year and every other year what we are capable of and I will believe the fortune of this great club has changed. I don't want to be negative I believe this list will bring us success but this list hasn't done anything yet. It's good to be excited with a new coach and new staff around the club but every club right now except G.W.S think they are a chance for the 8.

I don't necessarily think that people are expecting we're hungrier to win etc. just that the intent during the clash vs. collingwood was very much unlike how we've played in recent years

Would you reward his output from Friday with a senior game round 1? I agree the media highlighted it moreso because of who he is however I would have ranked him in our bottom 3 performers on Friday and if I ranked on perceived effort I would have put him at the bottom. As an example watch Watts pressure a ball carrier then watch the example set by Tom McDonald in the last quarter. Watts made very good headway late last year not suprisingly after he was made a sub. I think he is a massive talent but his performance was not up to scratch and he either needs to perform or work on his craft at Casey. I dont care if he spends the year at Casey playing as the main forward if that is what is best for his development however performances like Friday cannot be rewarded with a senior birth.

This is my issue with his NAB cup performance - some are condemning him to failure after 1 poor showing (let's not count round 1 as it was that horrible 20min format and torrential rain)

Let's see how he goes this week vs the Hawks with Clark down there in the forward line with him

There is no need to panic, just yet, with JW. The reality is he has played 40 games of AFL and some say it takes 100 games of AFL footy before you feel like you belong in the big league.

IMO opinion Jack looks somewhat hesitant in games. Thus he goes missing, looks out of place and does not impose himself. I go back to my first point, it takes 100 games before some one belongs in the AFL.

But, when it does click for him he shows his class and the impact he can impose on the game. Having said this he still has not dominated a game at this level.

Jack has shown he can be a very good player at this level, but has yet to show what his ceiling will be.

One important factor that has not been spoken about is his maturity. Yes his physicality needs to develop, but so does his maturity. Ive seen it develop alot over the years and see it continues into this season, I get the feeling next season will be the year he shows his potential. A year under Clark and the new footy dept structure will excellarate his mental and physical maturity.

His skills are not and issue for me. 50 more games (touch wood) and continued development will see his true worth. Until then he will continue to tease, and worry many

A point on that - Watts has never really had any form of physical protection from his team mates. Clark being there will make him walk taller in that regard IMO

Viney12 I am trying very hard to just put the case that other people not associated with the MFC see.

I was trying to put the case that your line to someone outside the MFC could easily say "he is just biased cannot see the forest for the trees"

"anyone who fails to recognise that doesn't know football"

but you see some of the people making the negative case do know a very lot about football.

I respect their opinions that does mean I have to agree with every thing they say.

But you cannot say they know nothing about football.

Now I have said enough on this subject.

And I do not hate JW or think he a bum.

I hope like hell he turns into the greatest forward the MFc has ever seen.

I think he is a work in progress and it is a couple of years off before we know if he is better than an average footballer.

If anyone says that's what didn't make solid process in 2011 then they're either not opening their eyes, following the popular thing to do (i.e. get stuck into Watts), or have maybe a bit of tall poppy syndrome

that is my point - his progress in 2011, not the fact he's a star

Tall, athletic, golden haired child from affluent bayside, attending Brightion Grammar, being drafted to a club with a supporter base seen as tof nosed range rover driving snow goers (<-- by the way - because people say this sterotype - does it make it true?)

Jack was never going to be popular with opposition supporters, please want him to fail, they will pick out 1 mistake amongst his 15 good things

It will always be that way until his quiet games become the exception

I wrote my comment based on Apocalypse saying he did not understand the the media gettiong stuck into JW and not other No.1 picks.

I was pointing out that of the last 5 No.1 picks he was one of the poor producers.

I was attempting to explain the medias attitude

Every thing after that is pruely subjective.

You make some good points Viney12

But your line above proves nothing.

Simply because people in the football world have a differing opinion to you does not mean they know nothing about football.

In fact the people currently bringing forward the negative opinions on JW are very knowledgable.

It could be said that your line shows you are just biased.

Bias? I didn't say he was a bonafide star

I say he took huge steps last year - and that is fact

See this is the JW cycle - started last season quietly, ever bastard and his dog crucifies him, he starts to show some form, had a purple patch of about 8 - 9 games where he was very good, regularly in our best. starting kicking a few goals, started taking a few good solid grabs, everyone shuts up. Has a poor showing in torrential rain in QLD round 1 of NAB cup - media is all over him - poor in round 2 of nab cup, everyone gets stuck into him again

The people who get stuck into him are the same people who slammed Goddard's output for the 1st 4 - 5 years where he was ordinary, now, he's an utter champion, elite blah blah blah

If by round 10 this year, Jack's not showing anything, criticism will be justified (although still FAR TOO early IMO) but justified somewhat

I'm not bias, but I'm understanding of Jack's situation

Bottom age, under developed, school kid, playing football for Brighton Grammar, training once a week with the club, being developed for a position that is notorious for the players taking some years reach potential

2009 for Watts was a write off - should never have played

2010 it was like a new recruit and he was finding his feet

2011 he took some serious steps to show his ability and improvement

2012 we're 2 rounds into the NAB cup ffs

Like it or not, Watts currently isn't and may never be a pack crasher

that's what people want - well I ask, what's the point throwing a 89kg highly skilled and athletic kid into packs, when he could be at ground level (which IMO is where he does his best work). Lets let him develop his frame before we expecting him to be monstering opposition back lines

I personally don't want to think about 186 ever again

I don't want the players to either

I think Neeld's idea of a clean slate has serious merit

We can't change what happened in 2011, or 2010, 09 etc for that matter

New Coach, new coaching group, entirely new structure, more resources, new captains, new look leadership group, a new brand of football - which we all witnessed last Saturday night (yes I know it was only NAB cup but one could argue there would be less reason to put their head over the ball in NAB cup)

So far Neeld has impressed me, his my way or not a all mentality is refreshing. He's blunt, he's to the point, he's told them whats required, he's eluded to the consequences if what's required isn't given.

Time to look forward, we're a new team now

IMO dee-luded you are seeing what you want to see - we are discussing No.1 picks - Gibbs is a very good player ( I hope watts get that good) - Kruezer is better than you suggest - Swallow has showed more in his first year than Watts did in his first two years. the above is the opinion of the football community not just my opinion The rest were not No.1 picks so not part of the discussion

Gibbs took a couple of years to get going - so your assessment he was excellent from the get go is wrong

Kreuzer has shown glimpses - and been injured - so it's difficult to assess. Also, Kruezer was drafted as a man mountain - Watts was drafted as a 17 year old skinny school kid - this makes an enormous difference when looking at KP prospects

It's popular to get stuck into Watts - a blonde haired private school kid, drafted to a club seen as toffee nosed elitists

You could immediately see how the collingwood players attacked him as soon as he came onto the ground

Watts should never have played that year - it served no real purpose other than to make him cannon fodder for the masses who like to attack

Reality is - with his age at draft time, with his body type, with his previous experience, Watts needs time. He won't start hitting his straps until he is 23 - 24

People need to accept that

He took huge steps last year, anyone who fails to recognise that doesn't know football, he will continue to take steps

He is not worth a great deal but a good year will see his value at north go north. Good idea for him to play out a few games before resigning with and pushing his price up. This was very common a few years back prior GW$ and the Goldie.

I agree it was common pre expansion teams

However, I think it's blatantly obvious now that the Scully situation had an effect on our club - on all levels

You would think if Bastinac wanted to stay - he'd continue noegotiations - a la Hurley - not put them on hold

It's not a good sign - doens't mean he's definitely gone - but not a good look

Honestly I think the talk of Watts needing to "step up" is just a myth now

For a young KPP his output has increased each year:

Year Team Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag. Brownlow

2011 Melbourne 22 9.0 7.1 16.1 5.6 1.0 0.5 2.4 0.4 0.6 0.8 0.05

2010 Melbourne 15 7.7 4.9 12.6 4.7 0.7 0.3 1.0 0.6 0.9 0.9

2009 Melbourne 3 5.3 3.7 9.0 3.0 0.7 0.7 0.3 0 0.7 2.0

The reality is 2009 he shouldn't have played

2010 was about getting some confidence - 2011 was about him understanding he belongs

Honestly (whilst I think he will be an exceptional player) - anyone expecting him to do any more to date was merely getting in on the perception he was a dud pick up

While we are $300k ahead of last year, according to some, that will mean bugger all as the 2 sponsors last year got bargain prices...

Probably cause the deals were rushed - which no doubt some complained about

We could win the flag this year and some people would still be complaining we played round 1 NAB Cup without a sponsor

FMD - to call this "....a low point" for the club

You have to be kidding

Come round - no sponsor - sure, have a crack - but the season hasn't even begun

To be honest I'm more interested in seeing how our PLAYERS actually PLAY and let others worry about sponsorship

Fact - with Energy Watch - we are $300k p/a ahead of last year from out FOJ and BOJ sponsors

Clearly the club is waiting for the right deal and not jumping at shadows like some of you

I'm sure Schwab could've signed 10 sponsors by now if he was as nervy as some people - clearly he has something bigger in mind

I think we actually had the option of activating our picks last year but we decided not to because the AFL bumped them down the order so as not to infringe on the orange brigade - I may be wrong.

I'm thinking any future compo picks won't be bumped though.

Can someone clarify?

No we couldn't as you have to nominate BEFORE the season starts that you are going to use them

excellent topic

our best will be Watts

smokey for me is Bail

Agree re Bail

Think he's very underrated in the football world and a very important player on our team

I heard he's looking at starting a clothing line a la Buddy

First item off the production line will be a range of hats

The Scully:

If anyone looks like Voldemort in the AFL it is Chri$ Judd

I think it's more the reference to "he who shall not be named" as opposed to looks

http://www.heraldsun...f-1226216761570

http://www.heraldsun...f-1226216756828

http://www.theage.co...1207-1oj8k.html

* You have to wonder whether these journos scour footy forum websites for topics to come up with. Where's my royalty cheque!

Royalty cheque?

The afl.com link you posted in the OP virtually stated the same thing

I see the issue of captaincy 2 ways

Green for 1 more year then someone like Trengove

or Moloney for a minmum 3 years

I cannot fathom how people would see it as acceptable to tell Moloney, "you'll be captain for 12 months, until who we see is a better candiate, is ready for it"

Would be too big a slap in the face

Isn't it funny that all of these supposed "ugly exits" occurred with a bunch of players that copped such an easy ride for so long under their best mate Danners

All of these blokes held us over a barrell at contract time, all threatened to leave, all signed at the death knell during trade week, after "....seriously considering an alternative"

All underachieved for the MFC (no doubt they had good careers but they were paid immensely well to do this, far more than some genuine stars of the game)

All couldn't see their time was up, as evidenced by White, Yze, Robbo etc. nominating for the draft

TJ copped it easy for so long from the club, then had a parting shot after he was traded out

I don't think this was Bailey's doing, this was a lingering problem from Danners era - all players who played the majority of their career under him

Junior was told (as far as my understanding) early in the year he wouldn't be getting a contract, then played some reasonable football therefore expected he would

He didn't

His time was up too

Quite right.

Cameron Bruce was no star, but from what he was expected to be to what he became, he achieved more than most. Those achievements were based on an excellent work ethic.

By the same token, Cameron Bruce was always about Cameron Bruce. That's not a crime, but it's also not Michael Voss.

Not many players have played over 200 games. Not many 200 game players spoil their legacy in this way. Not many clubs shaft their captain like we did Junior. There's two sides to this story, and neither is wrong.

Agree with all, other than the fact Junior was shafted

His time was up

The way they pushed Jr. out of the door would have effected Cam's reasoning during the negotiations.

I also dont understand how people can be bitter if in the same breath they are proclaiming about how much of a hack he was anyway? If his disposal was/is so bad, then why be bitter about him leaving.

Anyway, #32 was one of my favourite players during the mid 2000's and i harbour no ill feelings towards him

Cameron played a role, he was no hack (very good one on one, rarely beaten), his disposal just became terrible

And I disagree he was always a terrible disposer, early on in his career he was quite good

I can handle bashing Scully for leaving us, but all of the harsh words regarding Cam are out of line IMO.

Wonder if people will say the same harsh things about Jr when he only plays a few games next season for the Giants?

Junior - told by the club he was no longer required. Never held the club to ransom during contract negotiation. Never played his contract negotiations out in the media.

Cam - told by the club he was required on a 12 month contract for a significant sum. Told he would get a 2nd year if warranted. S**t on the club, took a 12 month deal for far less money from another club who couldn't guarantee a 2nd year. A club where he was not best 22 vs the club that plucked him from obscurity and served him well (and he served us well, I don't disagree) where he was best 22. A player who ever time he negotiated a new contract held the club to ransom, and played it out via the media.

Surely you can understand why some are a little bitter towards Cam

Additionally, I think Junior was retired at the right time and honestly, it's a joke if he thinks he still has anything left in him

Bad example the miss on goal from 35 metres out. He would have plenty of mates here from all clubs. Anyone can shank a kick.

My point being Bobby was that was the moment when his disposal went down hill

After that kick he seemed to lose all confidence when disposing of the ball

EDIT: In fact, I remember the way he dropped the ball during that kick. Horridly awkward and different to his usual style

From there on in he used to drop the ball onto his boot the same way