torpedo

Bernie Vince?

Are there any example of a big second ruck type playing back when not in the ruck?

I'd prefer not to have Hogan, Dawes, Watts/Vandenberg AND Frost in the forward line at the expense of a crummer (Garlett, Kent, JKH)...

So can we slot Frost down back, where he trained all pre-season, with cameos in the ruck?

Interesting idea. The Back 6 was traditionally a settled and predictable unit but that is less and less relevant these days. I am still yet to see why everyone is so convinced by Frost's Ruck or Forward prowess, he is significantly undersized and will get beat up as a Ruck and he does not appear to have the physicality or goal sense of a Forward. If he is going to offer anything I think it will be in Defence which may be the club's plan long term anyway.

There is always room for improvement and it is a given that if fit then Dawes and Vince come in.

Toumpus, Brayshaw, Kent, Frost & JKH appear to be the most likely to come under consideration.

For mine, Frost goes out for Dawes. I commend Frost's effort but he did not kick goals, take marks or bring any physical presence, all of which Dawes does and does well. Dawes has rucked plenty over the journey and is no worse at it than Frost. Frost currently seems to be playing somewhere between a Ruckman and a KPF and is not particularly adept at both, a bit reminiscent of Paul Johnson. Currently, I am not even sure if he is an improvement on Cam Pedersen. I'm glad we got him as he looks capable as a Defender but I think he is down the pecking order when it comes to playing as a KPF.

On form alone, the Toump has to go. I would like to see him given a consistent run at it because it is clearly a confidence issue but you cannot go gifting him games at the expense of more deserving & in-form players.

I really liked Brayshaw's game and think he looks a good bet for Rising Star. 9 tackles is huge.

I also liked Salem's game, he didn't rack it up like we thought he might but he competed really strongly in one-on-ones and came out on top most of the time, which is far more important than getting kicks, they will come soon enough.

In: Dawes, Vince

Out: Frost, Toumpas

2015 Free Agents - http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-18/the-next-crop-of-free-agents

I do not expect many of them to want out.

Other than the aforementioned GWS midfielders, Kruezer could be worth a look and should not command too hefty a sum.

What is with Roosy meeting people in cafes? If I was headhunting a high profile contracted employee and they wanted to meet up in the local cafe I would assume they were playing me. So unprofessional.

Careful, Goddard looks scarily similar to Watts...

Funny that you should mention that, as for mine Watts's career has always looked scarily similar to that of Brendan Goddard and this is the comparison I always use when Watts haters slag him off.

If you look back at Goddard's career you would probably say Watts is about on par with where Goddard was in his 6th season, he didn't really establish himself as a top shelf player until his 7th year.

Love the sound of that drill. The guy on the mark is occupied with a footy. The kicker will wait (occupied with the footy) until the option comes.

You go look at training, juniors to seniors, VAFA etc.... it absolutely doesn't make sense when you have players at the end of the line doing nothing. Or setting up these half field drills, and the poor forward/backs don't see it because the man with the whistle in his hand is pedantic about the stoppage and wants it repeated 4 times.

We have this "game sense" bulldust at junior level; but you hardly see a tackle bag, or contact drills, or tackling technique, or ground ball work at all. We still train like its Tom Hafey footy. Kick long, mark.

Allan Jeans famously catergorised footy at (a) in dispute; (b) they have it and © we have it. Training at most levels is all about 'c'. And even then it is 1970's 'c' work.

Training is 30 years behind where it should be at juniors, in the VAFA...you name it.

The VAFA club I played for a couple of years back was constant match simulation, 3-4 groups as described above, rotating through at high intensity with contact, if there was a half or full ground drills nobody was ever still, if you played Seniors then Sunday recovery was compulsory, as was Monday video and statistical analysis with your line coach, pre-season was six months of constant fitness assessment and re-assessment, plus specialist sessions such as tackling technique.

This was a suburban VAFA club a couple of rungs down, no doubt the successful private school clubs go even harder. I would say VAFA training programs are barely a few years behind AFL, let alone 30.

Forget Jurrah, I just hope that all the victims that he hurt throughout the past few years are recovering well.

Football is not going to keep Liam Jurrah out of jail.

Its unfortunate that this rascist bigot is still allowed on this site. Here is a snapshot of his best form:

Can this vile turd please be banned.

It's possible to have compassion for his background and circumstances and still not want him anywhere near your footy club.

For sure. I do not take an issue with people saying they do not want him back at MFC and never have.

I have an issue with people that think Liam's success or failure at AFL was as simple as him 'pulling his head in', 'being fair dinkum' or 'staying off the grog'. The fact that Liam played as many games as he did was a near miracle and was celebrated as such at the time, then many of those very same supporters that did the celebrating turn on him once it goes bad. That shows that those supporters learnt absolutely nothing from Liam's journey.

Look mate, I'm just saying everyone has choices. If he valued his afl opportunity maybe he would of steered clear of that position he found himself in?

Yes everyone has choices and some of them are awful. What you are saying is that if Liam valued his AFL opportunity he should have steered clear of his own family & country, what sort of a choice is that?

But I don't know much on the subject...

Well if you don't know much about the subject why kick the bloke while he is down? Do some research and educate yourself or even better go on a road trip to the Central Desert or the Kimberley and see for yourself.

Sorry pal, if you were fair dinkum you wouldn't of put yourself in that position..

This sort of ignorant dribble is so depressing...

Kids that have grown up in a desert community such as Yuendumu are born into poverty and some of the worst housing conditions you will see anywhere in the world and are exposed to disease, murder, suicide, rape and domestic violence from nappies. Every family has found a teenager hanging from the rafters, lost a sister or aunty to domestic violence murder or had to confront sexual abuse, if not all three all of the time. If kids have not succumbed to untreated mental illness and the criminal justice system during their teenage years, the only high education and employment options available are 1,000s of kilometres away in places that are completely foreign and isolating to someone from a remote community. Then when the next inevitable family tragedy occurs these young people feel they have no choice but to pack in their course or job and return to their country to mourn with their family.

Yet people still insist Liam chose to destroy his AFL career the day he threw a can of Emu down his throat.

It is a shame that all the media around Liam's background that was all the rage when he was kicking goals seems to have been so quickly forgotten.

Just as sad is the lack of compassion and understanding from people that think the challenges faced by kids from remote Aboriginal communities such as Liam are as simple as a person staying off the grog.

Liam's life back home had his AFL career in the balance the entire time, long before he got on the grog.

I'm now 30, total career tally games: around 20. I still love the sport, more than ever possibly, but my experiences with actually playing were almost entirely negative, and as I'm not getting any younger it's very unlikely I'll pull on a pair of boots again.

I went back to playing at 30 after some bad experiences playing junior footy.

VAFA has the Clubbies comp, which is more of a social comp for old blokes and the athletically challenged, although still highly competitive and part of serious football clubs. We have blokes from overseas that have never kicked a footy in their life come down for a run. Because everyone's washed up or no good and the team is managed by the players, everyone gets a fair run, at least until finals time anyway.

Fours year later I am still playing. One of the best things I've ever done, kicked the fags, Friday nights and Saturday arvos off the grog & mates for life.

Don't die wondering.

Whilst he has all the traits of a backline general and this is where he has played his best footy, memories of a praccy match against the Bombers at Princes Park under Bailey where he lined up in the middle after half time and smashed out 5 clearances in as many minutes keeps me optimistic that we may have midfielder yet.

Both Grimesy and Trenners remind me of Bartel in different ways, slow, not athletic, up and under kicking style but strong tackles, courageous marking and heart. If one of em makes it to Bartel's level I'll be happy.

For better or worse, the crumbing forward is a dying breed.

Most kids that want to get into the midfield of a Top 4 club have to establish themselves playing as a forward first.

I love the way Geelong go about this. They constantly blood new kids through there forward line & develop midfield depth while at the same time developing midfielders that kick goals.

Much more sustainable model than using one-trick pony forward pockets that will inevitably get locked down in big games.

You appear to be confusing the big business of private schools maximizing students scores with discipline & focus. Those schools have kids that are as sharp as marbles that miraculously score 95.

As you stated, for every Ted Richards there may be a Stef Martin. I am guessing there may even be four or five of them with varying degrees of discipline and intelligence.

It's just pathetic how Robinson (effectively just an outside observer) ridicules the decisions of Roos (one of the best coaches in the last 10 years and someone directly exposed to the workings of the trade racket and the AFL in general).

Where does Robbo ridicule Roos?

I agree with Robbo. Pick 2 should be off-limits unless there is a superstar available, which is extremely unlikely. And 3 years locked-in is too long for Vince.

No thanks. We have to use Pick 2 on a potential midfield star, neither of which Bugg or Buntine are likely to be.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

They do have the arguably the best 2nd rucks in the game in Hale & Roughy. Whilst there 1st ruck may be a statute, there ruck division & strategy is elite.

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

Spot on. Coaching, leadership & culture are so much more important than who got what pick right when.

Lots of people seem to blame all our woes on poor recruiting and the AFL. Then when discussing the Hawks & the Cats success they apparently just 'got lucky'.

I accept some poor recruiting as a factor but find it really baffling that people appear to place this above poor development & coaching and a lack of leadership & winning culture. And even more so when other clubs success is then passed off as luck or AFL assisted.

In my view Rockliff was never speculative even though he wasn't selected in the ND.

Which is exactly my point. You have a PSD pick and you have the opportunity to take one of the most gifted & exciting players ever seen vs a bunch of leftovers, who do you take?

The rumor about ROCKLIFF amuses me. Back in the year he was drafter he missed in the national draft and then trained with Melbourne who told him we would take him as either in the pre season draft or as a rookie. We took JARRAH, then a few picks later ROCKLIFF was taken by Brisbane. Another great blunder of the time.

People that cry about this all these years later are so full of shite, everyone was on the Jurrah bandwagon when we took him. He was a fantastic get for the club at the time and progressed a lot quicker than most in his first 3 years at the club.

Jurrah had a far higher ceiling than Rockliff. Rookie picks are for speculative players.

Always found the debate on 'Ology robust and interesting. 'Land is more of a supporters love-fest than a proper forum. Would be a shame to see 'Ology go.

And you know what, some high draft picks don't turn into good players, should we give up on drafting? Some coaches don't do as well at other clubs, should we sack Roos? Or MAYBE you should judge a player on his merits instead of comparing him to other players. All we can do is go by what we know, and what we know is Cross has averaged over 22 touches for the last 9 years, he's super fit, is not injury plagued, oh and he had 32 touches against the reigning premiers about a month ago.

The reason we're looking at him is because we DON'T have a mature and serviceable midfield.

The draft pick example is ridiculous. Daniel Cross is not a draft pick, he is 30+ midfielder at the end of his career. The only relevant comparison is against other 30+ midfielders at the end of their career. What examples are there of players of this type moving to bottom placed clubs and having a positive impact? Its not a trick question. If its such a sure bet, there should be plenty of examples, who are they? I cannot recall any.

For all the doubters, a few years back Hawthorn picked up a overweight port Adelaide discard in Stuart Dew, he was one the Main reasons the hawks beat the cats in the 08 final.

Stuart Dew was a 28 year old fat half forward with a freakish left boot playing as a burst player in a Premiership team. Daniel Cross will be a 31 year old no frills inside mid surrounded by kids. Apples and oranges.

Just for the record, from the Dees only Nathan Jones was ahead of Daniel Cross this season for supercoach scores.

From irrelevant stats to Supercoach scores? Seriously?

Cross is a godsend in terms of all we need to effect a cultural change, he will play round 1 2014, and he'll have an impact, we will be a better side for having him, his off field influence over pre season and the 2014 season will be huge,

we need someone to show the young kids what to do, and what it takes to be successful at AFL level as midfielders.

A 'godsend'? Or he could come over, contribute no more than a player half his age, detoriate rapidly and end up in the ressies?

All I am saying is he is as high risk as any other pick, if you suggest otherwise you have your head in the clouds.