Dees2014

I fear though Hogan may be another Scott Thompson ie will want to go home after 2 years. The dockers after all have an urgent need for a key forward post Pav. It might make some sense to use that to get the structure we need. As much as I would adore Hogan to be our Wayne Carey ( which I suspect he is well and truly capable of), we may not be seeing the longer term view here. The forward line is not our major problem, with the possible exception of a quick crumbling type ( a la Betts), but quality mids are. We need urgently to assess where hogan is at, and this is extremely difficult to do since he has not yet played a game and will be with us for at least the next two years. Over that time, I think we will get our act together re the mid field and we may find ourselves top 4 in two year's time ( yes you heard it here first folks). In those circumstances, hogan might develop a high incentive to stay, in which case our problem disappears.But if we don't, then it may make huge sense to trade him in the next 18 months.

It won't happen. If ASADA squib the Bomber penalties, then WADA will appeal to the international tribunals and they will uphold the law. There is no escape for the bombers, and no deals can be done, and no amount of PR or expensive legal help will make a blind bit of difference. 12 or more players are about to be given infraction notices, which will be followed by either 2 or 4 year bans ( WADA has just changed the rule to 4 years but this may not apply retrospectively). This will result in them all suing Essendon which will result in multimillion dollar settlements, which may send the EFC bankrupt, and will test the finances of even the AFL. There is nothing good in this for anyone, and in my view will set the game, not just Essendon, back 10 years or more, at a time when the competition for the sporting dollar is getting more and more fierce particular from Football and even now cricket. This is not good for the AFL, but most of us feel the Dons had it coming to them through their arrogance and seeing themselves above the Law, particularly Hird.

God some people go over the top on this site. If you think this is the worst thread ever you can't have been on Demonland long. One thing the title can guarantee is everyone would read it, which clearly they have. Having read it the fundamental proposition was quite reasonable.

I really think this sort of persecution complex does not get us anywhere, but sadly is so prevalent on this site. The trigger for me is the word "Vlad" (referring to the CEO of the AFL), which has all the connotations of racism and anti-elitism. Face it folks, the MFC has only itself to blame for its incompetence in the last five years. Before that, it was more than competitive. A Demitriou led board of the AFL has been a the forefront of rescuing the MFC from its own incompetence. We should rejoice we have such professional administrators at the AFL. We would be on our way to NZ without them. Sadly so many MFC supporters prefer to think of themselves as persecuted, rather than how we can get ourselves out of this mess. I've noticed also, so often those who complain about persecution, are also the ones who are most critical of the AFL Head. The AFL have been responsible for putting Peter Jackson into the MFC, indirectly recruiting Roos, and supplying the funds to rescue us from oblivion. Admittedly, they also knew without the MFC they would not have a viable competition, but they could have sent us to Hobart and we could not have done a blind thing about it. Be careful what you wish for.......

I think we are too impatient for trading results on here. It is VERY early in the process, and you never buy at first sight. All the business negotiations I have ever been involved in both here and offshore, you always start with an ambit claim to which your opposition fein outrage at the unreasonableness of your demands. It is part of the tactics. What would concern me most is if we did a deal so soon in the period. It would mean we had learnt nothing from the last 5 years. I’m very attracted to the suggestion on here that we have been “shopping” pick 2 around “with unreasonable demands for which no one is biting” (no doubt a rumour planted in the Press by opposition clubs to try and get us to lessen our demands). What this process does do though is to get other clubs to reveal to us who is really on the market, so we can then go back and target them later on with lower draft picks (and maybe players). Smart negotiating and miles ahead of our tactics of the past. I have always felt that the “pick 2 is on the table” was a bit of a ruse on our behalf – there are simply too many elite midfielders in the draft who would give us a champion for many years to come (except if we were silly enough to draft another Scully, but I think Roos is too smart for that – his record with the Swans in that regard was impeccable. He will very carefully check out “character". If we had have done that with Scully, even in a very limited form, we would have seen him and his father to be the complete tossers they are). No, I am very buoyed by what I am observing happening these last couple of weeks. We are employing far more sophisticated tactics than previously, and I am sure we will land so very tasty morsels before this is over. We just need to allow our negotiating team to go through the process. Really good deals take a long time to complete, and are often done at the "11th hour". We just need to be patient and enjoy watching this pan out. Hopefully we will take a few other clubs for a ride rather than the opposite, which is what has happened in the past. I’m really enjoying watching this unfold......

I did say we had already let some go. My point was we have a number of high draft picks who are underperforming but with first class coaching will improve greatly. Better for us to do that than trade them for low value because of our lack of credibility. In my view we have plenty of opportunity to trade picks, and draft sensibly, to build a great midfield. We also have a number of underperforming players who will turn into good midfielders with great coaching. We are not in a good position to drive a hard bargains except with our high picks. Trading players will return us little value, but making them play better has huge upside.I would also say that most of the projected top 20 in this year's draft appear to be potential top quality midfielders. It may make sense to recruit a couple of those to get some elite players, and with our remaining picks get some Barlow-like mature age, hard bodied mids who will be set to go immediately. Roos had a history of doing that brilliantly at the swans, I see no reason why he wouldn't repeat the dose for us.

At least I admit it when I may be wrong, or at leat misleading, which is more than you can say for most on this site. I do say though this is nitpicking - my overall point in my view is still very relevant I.e. we are better off putting our effort into the high draft pick/high potential players (like Fitzy) now that we have excellent coaching than trading them now for has-beens when they have little value. We should not underestimate how much damage our appallingly bad coaching has done to our current playing group in the last 5 years. If we can get an overall 40-50% improvement from our playing group next year, which I don't think is beyond the new coaching set up at all, we will make the 8. If we recruit well and add three or four quality mid fielders to the group, and keep the likes of Dawes, Clark, Hogan, Viney, Grimes fit and firing (unlike this year) we could even go well into September. I know we are coming from a long way back, but I maintain this was largely from our own incompetence, not the fundamental athletic and football ability of our players. Time will tell I suppose , but I think there is great room for optimism. We are not in the position where we need a huge clean out (although some of the has-beens recruited by Neeld should go and some have). The elite athletes who have come to us as high draft picks should be developed not traded. That is my fundamental point.

Point taken. Amended accordingly, but a very marginal difference if I might say so. I obviously need to be more precise with my words in the future...

It was me, it was me, it was me! ......or more correctly ....it was I, it was I , it was I! but somehow that does not sound quite as egalitarian! I love this site, it keeps me constantly amused. Post something left-field, or different, or outrageous, and you get a constant stream of invective from the know-alls. I find it very amusing planting these outrageous ideas, and wait for the reaction. The responses are usually from the same dozen or so posters, which range from outright insulting to just plain ignorant. Rarely for something different is there objective analysis, or dare I say it, agreement. Oh, and by the way, I know my suggestion currently looks ridiculous. I wonder how ridiculous it will look in five years time if Fitzy keeps fit and well. Sadly I fear his best days will be spent on the MCG in late September in a jumper which will not be red and blue. I'm sure that will please greatly those on here who have delivered the invective about this posting in the last three days. I wait with amusement for the new stream of insults for this post as well. Go on, I dare you. I know you want to! PS By the way, I never mentioned Judd, and I said Fitzy could be better than Fyfe if he stays healthy with the right coaching, and is played in the midfield rather than up-forward. I never said he was currently. The overall point though was, we are in my opinion better off keeping most of our high potential\high draft picks and giving them excellent coaching, than bringing in has-beens, which is mostly all we would get for them given our lowly status. Fitzy is just such a player in the high potential category.

I fear it is heath shaw plus a first round pick. God help us I hope not....

I have no knowledge of Demoneyes behavior or indeed past posts. I was talking about principles here, and what he said on the face of it was reasonable. He was articulating what I think most would agree is an issue on Demonland. If he is being hypocritical in so doing, then that is for others to judge as I have no specific knowledge of it.All I ask is that my post is judged on the principles it espouses, and the opportunities it presents, not on the personal lifestyle choices of Demoneyes, of which I have no knowledge.

No matter where we are on the ladder, good manners and respect should always apply. In fact it applies even more so when you are down the bottom because you want constructive, innovative debate to create the conditions for progress and to help to bring about creative improvement. If we are all confined to conventional thinking because we are afraid of the personal abuse it will heap upon us if we express new ideas, we will not progress at all. When you are down and out, that is when you need the most creative and best brains to be applied to the problem, not blind conformity.

Here here, Demoneyes! Some on this site seem to think it smart to abuse and insult others just because they disagree with them. I find this particularly applies if you suggest something from left field or a bit unconventional. Innovative thinking is regarded by many on here as either ignorant or crazy. It is neither of course, it is the basis of competitive advantage both in business and sport, as I have seen over and over in my business career. It is often the things that are most subject to ridicule, mostly by people who are uncomfortable with change or are incapable of thinking outside the box, and don't have the ability to mount cogent arguments for or against. Instead they descend into personal abuse. Your point is very well made. Let's hope as a result of your posting tolerance and the quality of debate improves and becomes more respectful. After all, we are all after the same thing, to return the mighty Dees to the place where they should be - in the elite of the AFL.

You obviously know little about the disfunctional management which was Cameron Schwab with this comment. The current regime is totally different and extremely competent. Schwab's was the opposite. I for one have a great deal of confidence they will get the best outcomes for the club. Schwab regime rarely did, particularly under Neeld.

Sorry to be like a cracked record, but like Fitzy anyone. You proved my point!

Terrific post. It just shows what quality we now have in the club in our coaches/recruiters. Dare I say it, it also again re-enforces the opportunity we have from vast improvement from our current list, and we should think long and hard about giving away under performing players of high potential ( like Fitzy) because of our lack of currency at the moment for second rate has-beens or paying over the top in terms of combining draft picks and players (like the over the top suggestion of pick 2 and Fitzy for Fyfe). Thank goodness we now appear to have guns in our coaches and recruiting staff. They will get the job done and create further improvement on top of the improvement potential of our current list. Fortunately a lot of the posters on here aren't making the decisions!

I have suggested putting Fitzy into the midfield at least three times on here in the past and no-one reacted.i am not suggesting he is a gun at the moment, but he has potential to be in the future given his speed, size and skills. Someone extremely difficult to match up on. If you havent seen him train you should. He was a gun as a junior before he was injured and suffered from several serious illnesses between the ages of 17-19. He is only now starting to show flashes of his potential. I have argued consistently on here that our biggest room for improvement is to improve the performance of our current list, rather than trading in second rate has-beens as we did last year. I see no point in giving away players with high potential who, because of our lowly state, have little currency, particularly when we are assembling an A grade coaching staff who will make a huge difference in their own right. I think Fyfe went in the draft for something like the low twenties. He wasn't always the gun he is today. Giving pick 2 and Fitzy for him is ridiculous in my view. All I am saying is he (Fitzy) has huge potential. Don't waste it. Our current players is where our biggest room for improvement is. People who are suggesting that this thread is "the worst ever" because of my posting ought to give it a bit more consideration. I have been very consistent on this point as to where our improvement will come from. If you want to comment on it at least do it constructively. Oh yes, and get your spelling right if you are going to be insulting at the same time...

No no no. That is way over the top. Fyfe isn't that good. Fitzy will be better than any of them, and be a gun in the midfield - mark my words.

Not sure I agree. If GWS take Boyd (which I think they will do), this means that our pick 2 becomes the most valuable tradable pick in the draft for all other clubs. That should be worth quite a lot in a draft which thins out quite quickly after pick 30 apparently. Incidentally, there is speculation that GWS will pay serious attention to any trade for an experienced ruckman with 3-4 years left in him. Surely we could package something up involving Jamar to get one or two of their gun mids? Could be good value for us.

The four years comes from the new WADA code due to come into effect on jan 1, 2014. As I understand it any infraction notices issued after that date the four year rule applies. There is a get out clause in the code which effectively states that 6 months could apply for those who have been fully cooperative in the process. Essendon has been the opposite of this - they have absolutely no hope of getting lenient sentences. It just shows how appallingly badly they have managed this, and the cost of Hird's arrogance and self-centredness. They will pay the maximum price.. We should not deal with them in any way.

I would put 95% of that down to bad coaching and bad leadership. That is where Roos will make a huge difference, yes even with the likes of gysberts and Morton..

We should NOT, repeat, NOT target any players from Essendon. Within the next 2-3 weeks at least a dozen of them will be issued with infraction notices which will result in 4 year bans (under the new WADA rules). This means any newly signed ex Essendon player with an infraction notice will be banned from playing with us, and we will not be able to replace him, and certainly no compensation will be paid. We should not go near them with a barge pole....!

Frankly, to trade these first round draft picks (Bleese, tapscott, Strauss) now for little or no value makes no sense to me when they have be appallingly managed and coached by us. These guys ARE elite athletes, otherwise they would not be first rounders . It is simply not possible to go so early in the draft given the very extensive and sophisticated sports science testing they need to go through to even just be considered. Given the hand picked and advanced coaching panel we are now assembling under Roos, I'd be very certain that they will create a very big upside with these guys, and get the best out of their natural abilities. I would also throw in Howe ( clearly a great talent but under performing and inconsistent; Colin Sylvia - ditto; Max Gawn - an emerging young talent who will get better with age and great coaching; Fitzy- an out and out star as a school boy, but sadly cruelled by injury and serious illnesses since he was about 18, and now that at the age of 21 is now starting to show his schoolboy form. All these guys will flower under great coaching and great leadership. To trade any of them now would be throwing away a really big upside when their trade value would be mediocre at best. I would have also put Gysberts, Bennel, and yes, Moton in these categories too. If you look at the trade values of three quarters of the PA list this time last year (if you don't believe me read their supporter sites from August/September last year as I have done) you will find that many of those playing finals footy this year were vilified and written off on those sites; many advocated "trade them - but we won't get very much for them" sound familiar? I say keep our high picks and show them how to play. We will get far better value out of them that way.

I would be very surprised if we didn't "do" a Port Adelaide, provided: - we acquired 2-3 quality mids through trading - we play Watts and Fitzpatrick in the midfield, preferably on either wing - we can keep our "four towers" ie key forwards Clark, Howe, Dowes, Hogan on the park and firing - we acquire a quality crumbling forward eg One of the Carlton crew - Viney remains fit and healthy. Reasons for saying this is: - we know there will be at least a 50% improvement in the way we are coached - there will be a quality, stable administration and Board backing the coaching staff - our forward line fully fit would be in the top 3 or 4 in the league, but we need quality mids to get it up there - we have a quality back line - I suspect two of the really big improvers next year will be Gawn and Spencer, Jamar will be traded I suspect to Brisbane to reunite with Maloney - I would nominate the Crows, Magpies, Cats, Dons, Lions, Tigers, Blues, Swans, Bulldogs for various reasons being in decline next year. There are very good reasons to be optimistic about next year, and yes for me it ultimately comes down to wins and losses. I am predicting 12 wins and squeezing into the eight in generally a more even competition.

I think there are advantages in having a mix of former demon players and outsiders as coaches, especially if they have extensive finals experience as Miller clearly does. He was always regarded as being a great club man, amply demonstrated in the dignified way he left the club, and was always seen as having a good football brain. I agree with the other posting that compared him to Dawes - an apt description I think. A good acquisition IMO