Lutz

The leadership group will likely remain but it has to be one of the biggest wanks in football. Didn't Yze make ours a few years back...enough said.

It's an indictment on the quality of leaders at the club, and Yze, not leadership groups themselves.

Tell me Lutz what do they actually do?

I hear lots of comment but most of what I hear is fairly basic and ordinary stuff.

The Dees now have 6 in the group plus two captains if they are all in the side and on the ground then 44% of those playing are "leaders"

Add in 10 from the coaching panel so 18 Chiefs, that does not leave much room for the indians.

But I digress what does the leadership group do?

It's actually 2 playing chiefs, under a non-playing big chief.

I don't think it's necessary to go through the organisational breakdown structure, but the leadership group is vertically and horizontally structured.

The leadership group provides structure and leadership for the playing group, acts as a conduit for communication between the coaching dept and the playing group (and the board), and empowers the players to an extent.

The value of empowerment should not be underestimated.

The leadership group acts to form and cultivate the club culture.

Anyway, whether you understand it or not, all clubs in the AFL have long ago embraced the concept of leadership groups and can see the clear benefits, and it defies logic for any of them to go back to the dark ages.

*and the function of a leadership group goes far beyond the 22 onfield on match day.

The 44% figure is misleading and disingenuous.

Rubbish topic.

No club would be stupid enough to "buck the trend" and not appoint a leadership group.

That'd be like "bucking the trend" and going back to not doing preseason training anymore and encouraging the players to get [censored] together after a match.

...thanks for nitpicking, it doesn't change the argument I was trying to make.

Still probably the best midfielder we had when he decided to leave.

Totally agree, in case you missed that.

And Brock was a good ordinary footballer, but the game passed him by when the physical demands changed as his physical abilities diminished.

Still not many in that draft you'd take in place of Brock, when you compare their output to date.

We actually nabbed Morton at 4

Somewhat insensitive by the coach and amateurish.

Really..?

What do you want? Neeld to give him a cuddle and sit with him for a few hours?

Honestly, some people...

btw, not only will Gysberts be an absolute jet (not far off it now), but Morton will prove a lot of people wrong.

Bookmark it.

that's 5 shots at the top 5 in a 7-year period, 6 including non-midfield Watts. Here is the other 29 top-5 picks from that period:

Adam Cooney

Andrew Walker

Farren Ray

Brett Deledio

Jarryd Roughead

Ryan Griffen

Richard Tambling

Lance Franklin

Marc Murphy

Dale Thomas

Xavier Ellis

Josh Kennedy

Scott Pendlebury

Bryce Gibbs

Scott Gumbleton

Lachlan Hansen

Matthew Leuenberger

Travis Boak

Matthew Kreuzer

Trent Cotchin

Chris Masten

Jarrad Grant

Nic Naitanui

Stephen Hill

Hamish Hartlett

Michael Hurley

Dustin Martin

Anthony Morabito

Ben Cunnington

wouldnt mind trading the McLean, Morton and Scully picks for 3 from that lot

You fail to see that much of this list is irrelevant.

Most of it came down to bad luck (or bad tanking if you like) in that the picks we got simply weren't in the best drafts, or we weren't well enough positioned in those drafts.

We never had the option to choose the bolded players, and the ones in italics we didn't get because we opted for Scully and Trengove (once again, if you foresaw that Scully would leave, i'd like you to PM me next week's lotto numbers... and btw, he was a mid).

If you'd prefer the remaining few over Watts, that's your prerogative, but there are only 2 players on that entire list we could have chosen and it wouldn't have cost us either Watts, Trengove or Scully... Farren bloody Ray and Jarrad Grant.

Ones not even a mid, nor looks like being a great player, at that.

I mean, it's like you're working against yourself here...

Rhino pretty much said it all, but I agree with rjay - awareness and decision-making are his biggest deficiencies.

And being able to kick the ball a long way is very different to hitting targets at that distance.

I think you'll find he often just bombs long or takes the obvious short option.

Finding an option when they're hard to find, is not one of his tricks (few can, but if we're talking about "stars" or the "elite"...)

I like BH don't think Beamer can ever become "elite".

He can be a bullocking clearance machine, but outside of a stoppage he just doesn't have enough.

What qualities do you think he possesses that would allow him to become elite

You can't be elite with big holes in your game.

we were given every chance by the AFL to have built a superstar midfield, look how it turned out for us:

2003 pick 3 Sylvia

2003 pick 5 McLean

2007 pick 4 Morton

2009 pick 1 Scully

2009 pick 2 Trengove

ouch

A few problems with this post.

The AFL didn't do anything for us -- we "earned" those pick with our win-loss records.

Each of the first 3 picks might look bad, but they were the best options for mids at the stage of those drafts.

The only player of note in 2003 after those named, would be David Mundy, picked around 30-40 and after Freo had already had 2 picks themselves.

Rioli, Dangerfield & Grimes came after Morton, but not much else, and they aren't really mods (yet, at least).

And if you could have foreseen Scully leaving back on draft day, then I'd appreciate next week's tattslotto numbers while you're at it.

I firmly believe that when he looks back on this decision, he will regret it in years to come.

He had the chance to be something big, a meaningful player in the history of the game. Now he'll be a nobody playing for a team struggling on and off the field in a disinterested market.

Sometimes the grass is not greener. And he thought we had problems...

Disagree - he'll never be a nobody.

He'll always be the little sod that chased a truckload of money and never lived up to the hype.

Agree with Lutz, Jack Martin from WA will be the kid clubs vie for in the mini draft. According to likes of Terry Wallace on Trade week radio from last year clubs are already all over him.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/-/afl/9123659/gnfl-throws-up-another-afl-possibility/

For that matter, we may just be in for GWS / GC recruits from Victoria who are keen to head home.

Prestia, Mav Weller or Caddy would be ideal (although I think they've signed).

Same with a Dylan Shiel or Tom Bugg.

This coming draft/trade period looks to be almost as highly anticipated as those following our 2008 & 2009 seasons.

"Guns" or "gun mids" are subjective terms.

Collingwood has/had Swan, Ball, Pendlebury, Thomas, Sidebottom, Beams, Didak, Wellingham, Johnson, Krakouer, Shaw, O'Bree/Blair/Buckley/Davis...

Geelong has/had Corey, Selwood, Bartel, Chapman, Ling, Wojcinski, Johnson, Kelly, Enright, Ablett/Duncan, Menzel/Christensen/Hogan/Prismall/Byrnes/Guthrie/Smedts...

Even Carlton has Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Scotland, Robinson, Yarran, Simpson, Carazzo, Curnow/McLean, Lucas/Collins/Garlett/Russell...

Not all superstars, but many of them at least the equal of any of our mids right now.

Clutching at straws to get a full dozen, but didn't expect "a dozen" to be taken so literally either, and some of them are not pure mids but spend time running through there.

For our benefit we could probably include guys like Garland who will venture upfield at times.

But I'm talking in more general terms, before you try to turn it into a mathematical equation.

...

Completely agree (although not sure Bate will be an effective mid).

We just need to get more quality in there.

Stars, as you put it.

We have the supporting mids.

Trengove & Gysberts imo will become stars.

McKenzie will be a beast, as will Viney. But we need more.

Hello compo picks!

Only thing is that we'll have to wait.

I don't expect our midfield to be too strong in 2012, and it will be the main thing holding us back.

You need around a dozen...

Trengove, Moloney, Jones, Sylvia... Grimes at a stretch... Gysberts, Viney, Taggert not ready yet... McKenzie slowly coming back from injury... Tapscott same, & not convinced he's a mid... Bail runs all day and is good for a cameo... Bate... 2 compo picks that will take longer, if we take mids at all (we must)... Morton more suited to playing off the centre square so he can read the play coming to him, and doesn't have to contest as much at stoppages... Davey who knows? and forward line now apparently... Nicholson lacks polish... Evans who knows?

Not quite the dozen gun mids we need.

With the recruitment of Magner & couch, it's an effort to make sure we break even in the middle.

We DESPERATELY need some more decent mids.

Last year Brent Moloney was declared our BEST player by THE CLUB. The End.

Calling a former member of our leadership group not even "a leader's toenail", IS player bashing. The End.

I can take criticism when it comes with some fraction of thought.

And AGAIN I POINT OUT, I DID NOT say Moloney should have remained in the group, I say AGAIN that no one knows unless they know everything behind the scenes. So there is your correction. The End.

And as I've pointed our above, you continually misquote, misinterpret, and blatantly just make things up to try and support your weak arguments. The End.

My apologies to everyone else reading this thread, has some great stuff in it, and I should have known better than to feed this troll.

Whatever Stuie.

Sounds like you're now the one misquoting and presenting your views as fact.

I'm just putting forward my point of view, and you're the one trying to shoot it down.

The football dept agrees with me. The end.

I would back Petterd against Dunn, Bate,Cook going on last years form(which is all I can go on) Tapscott injured, Sellar unproven???

So would I.

Relevance?

Seriously mate, unless you're Norm Smith you really overestimate yourself.

Try getting the point first, responding second. Here, I'll explain a little for you: I haven't said Moloney should have remained in the LG, I've said that no one can decide that unless they know everything behind the scenes, all I've said is that I'm sick of all the weak, faceless bashing of our current BEST player on this board.

Just because you like to say things like "you obviously", or make other statements on behalf of other people and then state them as facts, doesn't mean they are actually true.

Besides, if I left to it "those who know what they're talking about", then you would never be heard would you Mr Important.

Anyway, I digress, back to the original point.... What was it again?

Our "BEST" player? Hardly.

Bashing? Honest appraisal.

Can't take honest criticism? Too bad. Harden up.

Don't like "you'd obviously"?

Well the former referred to your desire to leave Moloney as a leader. Feel free to correct me if this is untrue.

The latter was clearly meant as "anyone would obviously". Obviously.

Who exactly am I making statements on behalf of..?

Or are you just making accusations because you have a weak argument..?

Thats all fine until injury/poor form hits. Need all these players

Tom McDonald, Stef Martin, Sellar, Dunn, Bate, Cook, Sylvia, Tapscott..?

We are not short of players that could fill his role in the forward line.

But I think Petterd is good enough to demand an AFL starting 22 position, just not against any of the ones named in the previous post. (maybe Green).

I think if he is not established in the 22 by season's end, he'll be looking for greener pastures.

So you rank Frawley alongside Ablett, Pendlebury, Hodge, Swan, Franklin, Goddard, Steve J, J Selwood etc as a clear A-grader.

As I said, it's all subjective.

That includes your definition of "A grader".

Way too accommodating. And re judging a player's ability, talk to me when you make the top 20 in Supercoach! B)

Yep, well that just about says it all, if you equate ability to supercoach points.

I take it, then, that you don't rate Scarlett?

Fortunately I don't have the time to waste on supercoach beyond a passing interest.

Good luck with it.

Well hopefully Neeld didn't tell Moloney, Green, Rivers, and Davey they weren't a "leaders toenail"... and happily you have absoultely nothing to do with the club.

How exactly do you know that..?

Happy you don't, cos you'd obviously leave someone in a leadership position who is clearly less than competent.

Maybe you'd like another 50 years with no flag? another 186?

Leave it to those who know what they're talking about.

Anyway, you'd obviously sugarcoat it a little when talking to the players themselves, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I'm expecting to end up with Viney, Wines and O'Rourke.

Hopefully Viney, O'Rourke and Jack Martin, with us getting the U/17 pick for a compo pick plus a bloke like Bate or Petterd (not that I want to lose him, but he'll be starved of opportunities in a forward line featuring Howe, Jurrah, Clark, Green, Watts and a requisite crumber).