Demon Dynasty

I'd like to see us in more of an all in one real "Club" set up too deeluded. But where abouts and also how would we find the money for that now that we're such a basket case on the field? The club's coffers would hardly be expanding at a great rate at this point.

I'd put Grimes and Trengove on about a par development wise atm albeit Trengove's had a poor start this year through injury. I see your point though. Was mainly meant to highlight the new guys who haven't played enough games to really know and/or fringe players. In hindsight i should have included Grimes as well. I still don't believe either player has cemented themselves as a genuine AFL level/standard player. Well on the way to doing so but i think in a team placed somewhere within the 8 they would both be "fringe" players at the moment. Getting a few games here and there but having to fight tooth and nail to stay in the best 22. That's what i meant by still proving themselves at this level. Getting regular games at Melbourne is not a good reference point to where our players might be at as we are at the lowest end of pretty much all benchmarks atm and have been since Neeld commenced.

Excellent summary Dee. Very robotic (slow motion 80's style) once we lose possession, overly predictable once we do get it (mostly looking to head boundary side ) and gifting the ball to our opponents far too often which boosts their confidence, deflates ours and as you said it's effectively like gifting them 1 or 2 extra men on the field. Also we seem incapable of handballing 2 to 3 times quickly in succession around stoppages and congestion in order to escape that congestion and find an outside runner. Also there is some debate on here about zones. I'm yet to be convinced that's what Neeld is implementing. I need to review more matches before I'm convinced but from what I can tell so far, it's players just "thinking" too much or still not knowing their roles or incapable of manning up that makes it look as if they're guarding space when in effect they're just lost and not sure who they're supposed to be marking. There wae a moment in the 1st quarter against the Lions a few weeks back. Terlich marking Redden (I think) & Chip marking Brown. Both Lions players running through the top of the goal square deep in the forward line. For some reason Terlich decided to also mark Brown allowing his opponent to make an unmarked lead straight up the middle for the hit up. He marked, goaled and vavoom they were off again. Meanwhile poor old chip was left in Reddens wake having to leave Brown and try to stop the mark with no hope of getting there. If you didn't watch that piece of play carefully u wld swear we were guarding space or trying out some sort of wacky zone, and very poorly. But no. Was just confusion by 1 player in this case.

Yes i'm getting that vibe too PM. I think if we can hang on to one ray of hope it is that the players might be in the early stages of finding that belief. My only worry is that they've lost so many games now, and that Neeld has told them we are developing and not to expect much, that they've forgotten how to guts out a win against most teams unless they're up against another easy beat club (at present) like GWS or GCS. I'm not sure you can just click your fingers and start winning games of footy and become competitive. And as yet, Neeld's given no indication of when that point might arrive and neither has the President/Board given any indications of their expectations of Neeld during his 3 year contract. The president, the board, Neeld & the FD all give the impression that they're ok to just keep bouncing along the bottom at this point without any pressing time line.

Only chinese whispers but i also heard this from a source who has connections to a new player at the club. Stated that he noticed there were some players who pranced about as if they were king pins and wasn't overly praising of the general culture amongst some of the players. Said he couldn't understand the attitude given where we were on the ladder. Could be absolute rubbish and not sure how such a young player with little club experience could judge anyway, but FWIW that's what i heard.

In the team that played Carlton last week Roost (including emergencies) we'd have about 8 players that might make the grade at other AFL clubs (outside the 2 expansion teams). The ones you mentioned (highlighted) are yet to prove themselves as being AFL standard. Given enough games and time they may, but that could be said of many start out players in many clubs. Of those 8 players that could make other AFL lists, apart from maybe Clark and Howe, i would argue the rest will probably never be A graders. And yes i realise most other clubs don't have an endless list of A graders either. And I agree with you we might be only 4 players (or a few more) short of being competitive. However, where i beg to differ is due to the quality of those 8 players (and the rest of our list!). I would think from those additional 4 players (or so), at least 2 would need to be super star type players that could potentially turn some matches off their own efforts and the other 2 (or so) would need to be pretty damn good as well. We'll just dead cat bounce for the next decade otherwise.

That's a given i think OD. No arguments there. As to whether it's the worst list going around i guess we'll find out by about round 12 or so but i'm hoping the injection (yeah i love that term atm lol) of Dawes and hopefully the return of Grimes and Clark at some point will bolster our overall stocks and quality across the ground and place us just ahead of the 2 start up clubs. Maybe even the Doggies! We're living through the worst of the worst both off and on the field leadership wise that i can remember OD. About the only exciting thing happening this year that i can grasp hold of would be the speckies and form of Howe (apart from last week), the continual dogged efforts of Jones, the development of Evans who's starting to show some indications that we might have finally found a decent outside mid, Terlich's early efforts and the good form (so far) of Garland. I like Tappy's heavy hitting too and hope he keeps it up lol.

I posted this in response to a poster's comment on how we matched Carlton in the "Clearances" stat (almost) on Sunday....... ........."If you were thinking of using "Clearances" as a demonstration of where your team is at in the mid field then think again. The Demons are ranked 17th after 6 rounds. Yet guess who sits below us in 18th spot! You'd never guess....the Mighty Cats!! Yep. They're worse than us in that particular stat. And the Pies.....16th and Carlton 10th. And i'm pretty sure most pundits would rank the Cats mid field alot higher than us at present. A somewhat more telling stat in this area is (IMO) "Effective Disposals" which, as you would no doubt already know, is an indicator of how well you are using the ball when you do get it, ie., a reasonable indicator of ball usage & skills. On that stat you have the following results after 6 rounds of data...... 1. Essendon 2. Geelong 3. Hawthorn 4. Port 5. North 6. Collingwood 7. Sydney 8. Richmond 9. Carlton 10. Brisbane 11. St Kilda 12. Gold Coast 13. West Coast 14. Bulldogs 15. GWS 16. Adelaide 17. Freemantle 18. Melbourne " End Stats: Courtesy of Footywire

Neither have i Jumbo. I'm just going on the form he's been showing at Casey and some flashes of form he showed last year, plus the extra pre season tank wise. Just like to see him given a decent run at it while we're so lacking in big bodied numbers rotation wise. If Magner does ok great, but i'm more thinking of what it could do to help Jones & Sylvia rest a little during the first half of games and recoup for the 2nd. I tried to look at Couch last year but missed him as he was injured in both games i went to. I'd love to hear from KC or someone who's seen plenty of both Magner & Couch this year to know what they feel about their prospects of holding their own as inside mids if we were to roll them through there right now.

You need much more than one game to be reading anything into a stat Satyr. Most data firms worth their salt wont carry out any comparative with under 5 games of data (at least). In addition the "Clearances" stat you refer to can be very misleading. A more telling stat for this type of indicator would be "Effective Clearances" if it were freely available If you were thinking of using "Clearances" as a demonstration of where your team is at in the mid field then think again. The Demons are ranked 17th after 6 rounds. Yet guess who sits below us in 18th spot! You'd never guess....the Mighty Cats!! Yep. They're worse than us in that particular stat. And the Pies.....16th and Carlton 10th. And i'm pretty sure most pundits would rank the Cats mid field alot higher than us at present. A somewhat more telling stat in this area is (IMO) "Effective Disposals" which, as you would no doubt already know, is an indicator of how well you are using the ball when you do get it, ie., a reasonable indicator of ball usage & skills. On that stat you have the following results after 6 rounds of data...... 1. Essendon 2. Geelong 3. Hawthorn 4. Port 5. North 6. Collingwood 7. Sydney 8. Richmond 9. Carlton 10. Brisbane 11. St Kilda 12. Gold Coast 13. West Coast 14. Bulldogs 15. GWS 16. Adelaide 17. Freemantle 18. Melbourne

I'm not sure why you keep including Bail & Strauss in these discussions (versus Magner) as i'm referring to players who are capable of being rotated as "inside mids" for significant periods during a game and who can hold their own through their while doing so without getting smashed by bigger bodied inside mids and taken out of the game easily (ie., early in a contest by being moved off the ball easily etc). Wasn't Strauss recruited to become a small defender anyway? And Bail's been on the list since 2009, had 3 more seasons at it than Magner, not really come on and also weighs 4 kilos less than Magner but about the same height. Regardless, I see neither Bail or Strauss as being capable of playing the role of an inside mid atm. If they build an AFL "inside mid" sized bod (up around the 90kg mark like Magner) within a few years then it's quite possible they could. But as inside mid rotations, at present they wouldn't be considered in this role by any other team within the AFL imo. The same might be said of Magner in terms of class/skill/impact but i can at least see him as being capable and he does have a mid sized bod that can stand up to the heavy hitting as well as dishing it out during rotations. His tank probably wasn't there last year as it was only his first season but this would surely have improved with 1 more pre season under his belt. I would take Mckenzie as a potential rotation option (inside) before Bail & Strauss at this point. M Jones is still years away as well but more likely to be an outside mid IMO. To me both Bail and Strauss are (at best) potential half back players who might push into the middle occasionally but more as camio outside mids. The only real prospects we have at this point who could call themselves an outside mid and possibly grow into and fill the role on this list on a regular basis now and looking forward 2 to 3 years is M Jones and Evans imo. And no i don't see Sylvia as being the sublimely skilled inside mid you claim. He has impact at times and can burst break away with power. But his disposal effectiveness and smarts in many cases leave much room for improvement, even after 8 seasons. This leaves only one solid player who has the all round game of an impact/power game and reasonable disposal skills to play as a true quality inside mid for us at AFL standard IMO. And we all know who that is. And he needs every little bit of help he can get. We are basically running 1.5 inside mid field (AFL standard) rotations at this point. No wonder we're getting smashed after a quarter or 2. The opposition's "Quality" inside mid field rotations are crueling us pretty much every week so far. Solve this and we go someway towards becoming an AFL "competitive" unit. I say bring in Magner ASAP until we trade/find additional AFL standard inside mids to plug the gaping hole. Not the savior, not the solution. Just a better option than anything else on offer at present to assist N Jones/Sylvia (and the boys) to stay in the hunt a little longer or possibly pinch a few unexpected victories from the jaws of defeat.

Lol. Too funny Jumbo. So you're saying, if given the opportunity today, you would overlook a Greg Williams type in favour of say McKenzie?Not comparing Magner to any of those in terms of what he's acheived or likely to mate. The fact that you managed to garner that into your feable response shows that you don't have a good grasp on the game. None of these players have amazing burst speed as you claim. They might have strength through the core and legs and be able to break tackles and find their way through a tackle or 2 into space but certainly not fleet of foot. Magner is a minnow, having played in most cases about 8 seasons less in experience to these guys. So it's definitely not an attempt to compare him to them as we have no basis upon which to do so over such a lengthy period. To make it easier for you, Magner and others like him who don't have great leg or burst speed have the capability of playing at the highest level and either being 'ok' at it, 'good' at it or in some cases even great at it. We might also find, given enough opportunity on the park, that he is woeful at it. But the difference between the way I see the game and the way you see it is chalk and cheese. You believe an ordinary footballer like McKenzie deserves to hold his place before giving the likes of Magner, who may also prove to be ordinary, a go. You also probably have the same view on other ordinary footballers lile Bail and Strauss. Whereas I see it along the lines that if someone showes decent form weeks on end at Casey and the role/opportunity arises for him to be given a chance (and it has) and he's earned it plus he is needed (and he is as part of inside mid rotations with Grimes and Trengove out) then he should be given that opportunity to prove he can replicate something like his VFL form at AFL level. Some people are beyond foresight/vision and logic though so I'm not expecting you to change your narrow view.

Mitchell, Jobe, Sewell, Lewis, Bolton, Cooney (on one & a half legs). Greg Williams, one of the all time great centermen but slow as a wet week. Used his agility and footy smarts to escape opponents and find space. None are fleet footed but they have a role to play and carry it out effectively on most occasions. They burrow, fight, extract the ball and use it quickly by hand around congestion in an attempt to get the first clearance and link/ spread play working for us instead of giving it up to the opposition and letting them do it.Many are also fine tacklers that often "finish off" a tackle. They know the importance of bringing a player to the ground, even burying him if possible to ensure there's one less opponent able to influence the very next contest or disposal or offer themselves up as an outlet. They also know the tiring effect this sort of play has on younger, smaller bodied less mature players over the course of 4 quarters. They certainly don't lay flimsy half hearted tackles like some in our mid rotations presently. Magner has that tackling agro and finish. And as for your fleet footed argument... Other, than Evans at this point, I would argue that we have very few fleet footed "AFl capable" mid outsiders anyway. Certainly none worthy of keeping Magner away from an opportunity to show if he can replicate his good VFL form in the seniors if given a 3 to 5 week stint to find his AFL legs and the extra speed of the game at that level generally. And as for the present inside mids, there's only Jones, Sylvia and McKenzie. I certainly wouldn't rate Jones or McKenzie as fleet footed. No reason why Magner couldn't come in for McKenzie right now. McKenzie hasn't shown anything special to warrant continual selection in this line up.

I think most who support his elevation aren't expecting him to be. Rediculous assumption. He's shown form at Casey and has played through the mid previously (some experience at AFL level). Well positioned for a call up in order to assist the ROTATIONS and provide a contest. Doesn't have to be A/B grade from the get go or the rest of this season as he certainly isn't replacing an A or B grade mid fielder. And now that Trengove/Grimes are out, replacement mids are in order just to cover their loss and assist Jones/Sylvia/McKenzie (or Rodan). The former 2 needing as much assistance as they can get if they're to see out a whole match at a competitive work rate and give us any chance of winning matches or at least staying in them for a longer period.

That was said in jest surely Jumbo yes? Hasn't played 1 game this year so how can you judge if he is or isn't? Basing it on last year's form maybe? If that were the basis for your judgement half our team should be playing for Casey. But players who have played this year who clearly aren't AFL standard (and there's plenty of them) you're willing to keep playing, but leave Magner downstairs to fester it would seem? Looking forward to your next entertaining line

Could be..... A rumour spread in order to deflect the heat off the Bummers and the unfolding Dr Ageless issue today and this week; and/or A rumour spread to put a cattle prod up Neeldy's nether regions in an attempt to make him get a freakin' move on and start games instead of incremental development over the next 10 years or so; or Complete BS I'm betting it's probably the latter

Yep. Was always going to be hard on a new bloke in his early formative years with no real grunt around him. Even Joel Selwood, surrounded by a team of champions, didn't get the captaincy until 1 season later in his career than Trengove. He also had 3 years in maturity on young Jack.

Almost with you on that DeeZee. I would go one further. Magner in for Grimes. Couch in for Trengove. Jones as Captain. Sylvia VC. Trengove needs to recover at Casey and find his fitness/footy mojo again as it's completely shot atm. Couch can at least provide a contest and get a few more disposals (not overly confident but willing to roll the die!). I would keep McKenzie and Viney on the bench for later rotations as per below. My Starting line up in the middle would be Jones (free), Sylvia (free) and Dunn (as the "go to" similar to the role on Judd last week, interchanging with Mckenzie off the bench on the same player or maybe we bring in McKenzie to try and shut down a 2nd option if things are getting out of hand in the mid....again lol). I would rotate Magner for Jones as to me they are similar in style (albeit Jones boy is a few rungs above at this point obviously). Viney off the bench once the heat's out of the game a little. Say no earlier than 10 minutes or so into the 3rd. Sometimes watching is just as good as being out there, provided you have someone skilled/experienced sitting alongside you giving pointers and adding some value. I prefer Viney in this role as he wont blow up too early in the match and find himself a yard or so behind the play by the 2nd or 3rd if he's on from the get go. Being able to keep up and influence a few more contests and plays deeper into the match might help in his development and confidence. Although the only problem with this strategy is we are out of most games by about half time lol. So we would need to pick and choose when to play Jack. Sometimes at Casey (as a learning/protective measure) and sometimes in the seniors depending on who we're up against. In a quality team this wouldn't be an issue. But we need to manage this kid real careful if he's to develop into what we expect and not throw him to the wolves too early.

McQueen i sense your frustration mate. Keep in mind that Neeld did play him in the mid field last week. Unfortunately he matched him up at the start of the match and for a fair portion of the rest of the centerbounces/on ball contests on Beamer. I've expressed my amazement at this decision previously, so i won't go over it again. Based on what i've seen on the field this year and given we know he was coming back from an injury pre season, i'd say his fitness/conditioning levels just aren't up to playing at AFL level atm and he's probably been on a gradual downward spiral, recovery wise post each match, since his return. Unfortunately, by allowing him to get towelled up by Beamer last week, Neeld has also added to the equation by possibly (emphasis on possibly) driving the final physical nail into him for the following week's match against the Blues (courtesy of Beamer) along with a massive drop in confidence with such a beating by a former team mate. Wouldn't be making him feel any better about the Captaincy either i wouldn't think. Imagine walking into the rooms after the Brisbane match having just been smashed by a former team mate who you were the Captain of, and facing that group as the co Captain.

Good to hear UH. I guess it was a tongue in cheek outburst but also some genuine frustration. From my point of view it probably doesn't matter too much who the "actual" ins and outs are anymore. If we keep playing in the manner/style and with the skill level and lack of confidence that we've been showing in the last 28 matches (unless Neeld can turn the skill levels around dramatically in the next 10 months) , we'll probably still be bouncing along the bottom for the next year or 2 at least. Also, i'm a bit of a closet Cats fan in the sense of what they've achieved and the style of their game. It's just great to watch in comparison to many other teams (obviously including us atm) and they're still doing amazing things out there 6 years after their run started. Probably my inner Demon wanting to pinch some ex Cat expertise to try and inject some of that feline magic into our flailing club and game style. Much prefer the Cat's method and style of play vs The Pies of 2010 which Neeld still seems to be trying to implement at least a fair chunk of That's just from what i see every week (and comparing it to the Cat's style) on the field so there's no sound basis for that view. Feel free to shoot me down on that. But one thing i do know is that the Cats have the runs on the board and their style appears to stand up better against pretty much every other team/coaching method out there. I do think our line and development coaching panel is unfortunately sub par so my "Ins" in that regard are who i'd like to have right now IF i found a Genie bottle and was granted 3 wishes! Here's hoping Neeld & Co. can produce a miraculous turn around from here! Cheers mate

Outs: We are here to develop and become the hardest team to beat. You aren't expected to win while doing so. The first option at all times is to look outside and kick towards the boundary, but don't overdo the handball! The 2nd option - "Hit the Boundary!" It's ok to Kick/Hack the ball towards a contest when under any degree of pressure, even to a 2 on 1 or a 3 on 1 against.... as long as it's towards the boundary! Generally Ignore disposals to overlap runners who are clear and heading inside ie., towards the corridor Generally Ignore disposals to overlap runners who are clear and forward of play and free ie., heading quickly towards our goals and likely to impact the scoreboard or give it off to someone who can! Defenders/Mid Fielders, feel free to run & carry, but all other defenders/mid fielders who don't have possession can only move laterally and slowly. Don't run forward in waves to support or spread in order to create heaps of overlap options! Allow other mid fielders and on ballers to generally get the ball first so you can then tackle them and create another stoppage. If you happen to get first possession at a stoppage do not handball quickly to fellow players using the old "1 2" and definitely no "3" to an outside runner! Do not overdo the handball, in fact you should rarely handball unless it's to a target standing still or looking like they're about to be gang tackled! There's no such thing as a speedy/classy outside runner around here! Anyone looking like a speedy/outside runner will spend weeks at Casey. Anyone overdoing the handball in order to effectively clear the congestion in an attempt to find a speedy/classy outside runner that we don't have...will spend more weeks at Casey No 2nd or 3rd efforts in order to protect the ball carrier once you've given off that 1 (and 1 only at a time) handball, any firther handball attempts in succession should be at the feet of fellow player No 2nd or 3rd efforts in order to create another option for the player you just gave the ball to, especially running forward of that player! Training like AFL footballers on the track means you are close to being one on game day. Just do the same on game day. Keep training. It will happen. Use more Pantene. It will happen. It will! Brian Royal Jade Rawlings Leigh Brown Paul Satterley Aaron Greaves Andrew Nichol Neil Craig Mark Neeld Ins: We are here to win at all costs or die trying If that means defending a lead in order to win (and you are told to), defend. If that means attack at all costs in order regain the lead....go all out attack (Pssst....you don't need to be told to do this part!). If we are in the lead you can still attack and try and smash your opponent unless told otherwise. We never give in and we don't accept 2nd best....period. Anyone who looks like they've given up during any passage of play or shirks a contest is in danger of spending weeks at Casey and risks never playing seniors football with this club again (subject to a severe injury/hammy during a chase or heading towards a contest) Reversal of the above "Outs" (excluding Coach references) Bomber Thompson or Paul Roos (Coach) Mark Neeld (Assistant Coach) Dermot Brereton (Forward Line Coach) Cameron Mooney (Forward Line Development Coach) Cameron Ling (Mid Field Coach) Simon Black (Mid Field Development Coach) Matthew Scarlett (Back Line Coach) Darren Milburn (Back Line Development Coach) Brad Ottens (Part Time Ruck Coach)

Jaded, watch this week's game again and last week's carefully. You'll see that some players who get what the game's about, like Evans, do run forward or lateraIly away from congestion as soon as they perceive or see that we have won possession. In some cases, players are running hard (making space) forward/lateral of the player they've just handed off to expecting to receive it back and for that player to then block/shepard after in order to protect space and allow the receiver enough time/freedom to spot up the next lead up target or player in space. Something Geelong do on the bit. Basically looking to create as much overlap play possible and run the lines. The point i'm trying to make is it is happening with some players in the team, they're working hard for the receive, but in many cases the other player with the ball just refuses to give off even though it appears to be the obvious and potentially most damaging option! I can't pin point the exact moments in last week's game but there was one passage of play where Evans ran forward of Terlich off the back half in the first quarter (near the boundary). I think Evans had just given it off to Terlich (although don't hold me to that). Evans was running past Terlich, heading inside and the best option for Terlich was to give it straight back to Evans and then protect/block to allow him the extra time/space/freedom to take the ball and deliver to a leading high forward. But no, Terlich ignored Evans and instead turned around, looked back and gave the handball off (backwards) to one of our boys who was surrounded by 2 or 3 Lions. Those 2 or 3 Lions would have been left behind had Terlich done the instinctive thing and given it straight to Evans as he ran past, but no.....he looked to go back to a boundary option. The outcome was that we lost possession and it resulted in a stoppage in our back half instead of a quick transition into our forward half. Another example today was McKenzie. I'm pretty sure it may have been Evans again providing the run and option to go inside on the Southern wing, but Mckenzie ignored him and handballed backwards/along the line to a player surrounded by Blues who gobbled him up and couldn't believe their luck. If this is a Neeld training expectation or method then we're buggered. However, If it's a confidence or mental issue (ie., lacking in footy smarts in the top paddock) then maybe it's possible to turn this crappy "losing" style of play around through more skills/drills or an injection of more skilled/instinctive players that don't see the boundary as their first option as soon as they take possession. When more of our players start looking "INSIDE" as their first option and when we finally have more players who can execute by hand and foot we might finally be able to start to look like an AFL standard team. Is Neeld training/teaching them this BS style/method? He couldn’t be surely! And if he isn’t, is he capable of changing the mind set/methods/skills of many of them from being SO defensive? instead getting them to realise that in many cases/situations times you have to just GO GO GO, give off the instinctive lightning handball to a forward/lateral running player or just play on and run forward on the burst as we saw at one stage in the last quarter through the middle with the resulting sweet goal on the run to Sylvia. This came out of hard chasing and pressure on the southern wing. I’m all for defensive pressure and acts, but for god sake look inside as your first option, learn how to dispose of the ball effectively and get the boys to run and take their opponents and the game on more often!! Opposition players will pay us no respect (and already don’t) and keep running off into space (seemingly spreading so much better than us!!) if we continue to play so defensively and turn the bloody ball over as easily as we do, often in mid field. And no wonder. The bloody defenders are under the pump so often, they’re no doubt half fatigued by the time they get free and look to dispose the ball up field from the place where it has just come....over and over again.

Out: Grimes (ughh), Trengove, Strauss, McDonald, Bail & McKenzie In: Dawes, Magner, Blease, Sellar (for McDonald only because i can't think of another tall defender to replace McDonald), Rodan & Jetta Any chance we can skip the voting today?

I agree Doreen. There's nothing like Chanel 7's ability to add value to any game day commentary

Too easy inside our 50. Rebound came out without much pressure. Howe needs to learn to play in front late in a game when the legs (and hence the leaping ability) are pretty much gone.