Demon Dynasty

You mean a game plan that's been successfull once (2010) under MM at the Pies with a 3 pronged power running HB line and where they were happy to mount many of their attacks from using Shaw, Neon Leon and O'Brien. Neon has obviously departed and unless Shaw and O'brien are on the money and running full tilt all night then it's unlikely it will be successful. The cats had no one to run with O'brien early tonight as they are 1 quality defender down with Rivers out. They also miss Chapman through the middle and up forward and the loss of Stevie Johnson was a massive blow in class/finish this evening. In 2010 the Pies also had a class ball user on the outside pushing forward in Didak who delivered the ball i50 with precision to their forwards. We have neither the amazing 3 pronged running half backline that the Pies had then and nor do they. Nor do we have a class ball user who can create/find space a la Didak/Pendlebury and finish off the good work up the field by delivering it on a platter to forwards or alternatively kicking goals themselves. We also don't have the quick/slick ball use around the stoppages that they had back then nor do we have the general disposal skills, 2nd/3rd efforts or pressure acts that they had back then. Nor their ability to spread or apply an effective forward press. We may hug the boundary like they liked to do back then (and still do but to a slightly lessor degree), but that's about as close as we've ever gotten to looking anything like the Pies to this point Chook. We're not worthy of a comparison with the Pies of 2010, nor any team in the AFL at present, as we are presently not AFL worthy.

Sorry Masterl You're still not close. But a good attempt to cover your tracks. A coach doesn't look for "pure" disposals alone from a player. It's "effective disposals" he wants. In other words give me disposals but make sure they're to our side's advantage more often than not. You could have a player running through the middle who gets a little more of it than say Beamer did tonight, but he might negatively impact his own team many times by average or terrible ball use regardless of numbers. McKenzie is a great example of that for us in terms of ball use or horrible ball use as the case may be. A coach would take 15 to 20 quality (effective) disposals anytime over a mid that might get 20 to 30 but destroys 10 or 12 of those and has no damaging attack side to his game. And i know who i'd rather have minding say Watson if it came down to a choice of say Beamer, Jones, Trengove or McKenzie. In addition you might want to watch the match over again mate. Beamer does alot of the grunt work in and under, as well as pressure acts and causes occasional turnovers from opposition players that go unoticed by some. Beamer's hard work and work ethic in and around the ball also allows other "outside" players a run at the ball. Also some of these acts and heavy work don't count on the stats sheet but the Coach and/or his crew are watching/observing these during the match and reviewing them post. They see the extra effort and pressure acts and it matters and counts in their eyes. BTW, how do you know Neeld challenged him? According to Dermie, who said he spoke personally with Beamer last week, Beamer never spoke one on one at any stage with Neeld last year. He was left out in the cold. Both stubborn mules it would seem but surely it's beholden upon the Coach to break the ice?? And even if this is what Neeld wanted, maybe via a message he sent through carrier pigeon, Beamer was built for grunt by Bailey and built to get the ball out of and away from a clearance. He was somewhat heavier than he is now at Brisbane when with us prior to Neeld (approx 88/89kg 2011/12 vs 86/87kg now). Brisbane (Voss) asked Beamer to work at lightening up pre season in order to assist him in getting to a few more contests and to be able to run back a little the other way defensively. But at least they gave him an extra pre season to do so

Who hasn't Watson taken a mark against in the forward line this year? He's beaten most opponents in one on one's in a marking contest. He's bloody good. That's why he won a brownlow Haha....does very little? You must watch the game differently to some Master. Did you see the tackle he put on Watson at one point in the 3rd and then wrestled/won the ball off him on the ground? The run out the back. Read Luenburger (and visa versa) beautifully and kicked a non too shabby goal around the corner. Justy a few examples. Some people are hard to please. Or is it that we've had so little success for so long you just don't recognise a decent game form a solid player when you see one like a few other Demon fans on here i reckon. Seriously ....laughing here

Heyy Mods, Is there a poll at the end of season for the dumbest post of the year? Just wondering

Agree, Garry should butt out. I don't want his involvement again at all. He's had 2 goes at it already. You seriously want to give him a 3rd run at it? He was heavily involved in the appointment of a 2nd untried coach and had the opportunity to recommend/go after/hold out for a more experienced one. Oh but that's right, he had to push things through pretty quickly in order to get back to his real profession, earning mega bucks in the media. As pretty much everyone already knows, he was invited to do so by the Gardner led Board the 1st time around and then for a 2nd time (after the first attempt failed) by the present Board. The present board needs to go before the search and appointment of the next coach IMO. I have ZERO confidence in their ability to recognise a decent candidate from here (or Garry's, Lucifer forbid he should be asked to assist again!). Any decent appointee (with half a brain) would also be shuddering at the thought of heading in their under this Board's scrutiny/mis-management and would be unlikely to give any serious consideration to joining under their watch anyway. Another reason to replace them ASAP. However, if there's no other decent ticket with substantial footy nous involved putting themselves out there to take over, we are stuffed. Everyone better start chanting and calling on Lucifer for assistance on this one...the thought of this present board continuing is IMO just as scary as Neeld staying on as head coach for any longer than needed!! Craig in to take over as caretaker for the rest of the year. Neeld as Mid Field line coach if he still wants a gig. Neeld is dead in the water, has completely lost the bulk of the playing group (with a few exceptions) and this player group/club gets ever closer to armageddon the longer he continues. A big pat on the back to the Board, Garry, CS & CC for the mess we are now in. Well done fellas. You couldn't have done a better job at f#%king things up!

Agree his finishing let him down a little but he wasn't helped coming off the HB and wing in the 2nd and last quarters, into a wind, with some of the Casey forwards playing from behind and some letting their opponents doing the leading up. Go figure

Correct. Only 2 ex players, Brian Dixon with the assistance of Alan Johnson, were openly/publicly opposed to the merger and were involved in the formative stages of the anti merger campaign/union prior to Diamond Joe entering the fray. No other ex players publicly/openly expressed their opposition to the merger until roughly a week or so before the infamous vote at Dallas Brooks Hall (Wells and possibly 1 or 2 others) and on the night of the vote itself (Barassi). Side Note to Supermercardo: You might wish to update your "mergers" page on the Demonwiki site which mentions "Brian Dixon" and "Robert Flower" as the most prominent opponents of the union. This should read "Brian Dixon" and "Alan Johnson".

Aside from Jones in the mid and the occasional camio role by Grimes, tell me exactly how many mid fielders we have who were more capable than Beamer? Albeit his best was still only occasional and B grade at best, like the best from our other mids. I Point being, don't cast aside a soldier who can contribute (on occasions) until you find/develop/recruit a better one. That takes time. Meanwhile, that soldier still has a role to play if you can win him over. Did Neeld try hard enough to gain his confidence & get the best out of him? Only Beamer and Neeld would know that. One thing I do know, and that is, as the spiritual leader of many in that group, I would have fought damn hard to win him over and ask for greater, both on and off the field. And given Beamer a reasonable time to show it. Another fail from Neeld? You decide

I doubt if Scully ever had intentions of staying regardless. Gave the impression of a journeyman as soon as he entered IMO. Unless we had him locked down under a 3 to 4 year contract I doubt he would have ever taken his stint at the Demons as anything but a short term stop over to something more glorious ($$$$$$). Even if he hung about, was another skinny outside mid at best. Might get alot of it at times due to his tank but unlikely to ever be a serious A grader in terms of the damage he might cause. Certainly no savior for our mid field anyway. aA handy outside/link player at best.

Because they are DEEmoralised Jnr. That's what losing game after game after game does. And, as RR has explained so succintly below, they were told they weren't very good in most things to start with and lacked solid leaders, hence the 2 Jacks appointment by the Coach (with influnece from CS & CC via the rediculous Red & Blue Print). MN made them believe alright. He made them believe they were, in most areas, Shyte!! What we see on the field is what negative belief does to you. This is a product of the coach. This hasn't quite infiltrated every single player.....yet. Players who have immense pride and professionalism, like the Jones boy, will never go down without an immense fight. But he has maturity, experience and many pre seasons under his belt to assit in whethering and seeing off such storms. Players like Garland, in the mid point of the experience chart, showed some fight up till Sunday, but also showed signs of dropping off for the first time this year. Confidence can return quickly. But only IF you start stringing some wins together against opposition that isn't considered as bottom dwellers (like us). With the number of losses and the degree of them we've had in the last 18 months.... despair, darkness and depression could quite easily start to set it in once you start to lose hope. And some or maybe more of these blokes are starting to lose hope, and faith, in one another IMO. Young inexperienced players will lose it or gain confidence more quickly, but only if they aren't or are (as the case may be) lead in the right direction by strong leaders who stand tall when the chips are down and show them the way. I believe we've only had 3 of those "leader" types on the field in recent times (at least until the injection of Dawes who might also add something given time) in Jones, Clark and Grimes so far. Two of those leaders are now gone and will be for many matches. When you watch our players, generally as a whole, they look lost, shoulders drop, hands on hips (very easily), once things start to turn sour on the field. This is where players like Chip, Garland, Sylvia, Byrnes, Rodan (if he was left in the team and given a reasonable shot at getting his mojo back)!! and others needed to stand up. Until now we've only seen glimpses of leadership from Sylvia, Chip tries at times but hasn't extended himself for many matches now. Garlands "effort" has been reasonable until Sunday. Byrnes has been off and on. Rodan , well i can't judge as he's never been on or in for long enough. I think his form is a long way from what's required but i have seen signs of him at least willing to do the 1 percenters at times. And the Jones boy stands up....or has until now.....pretty much most of the time. But he's on his own atm here IMO. Which is a huge unfair burden on him, at least until Grimes and Clark return anyway. Hopefully others who you would expect to stand up, start doing so soon so he's not trying to do so all on his own. We are a rabble but we didn't arrive here by accident. In addition MN seems to have voluntarily left "experience" out with the likes of Rodan (179 games), Davey (163) and Jetta (38) in favour of (for example) Kent (1), Strauss (19) and Nicholson (23). That's a reduction of 337 games experience. However, had we included those 3 players the Demons would have had an average of 65 games per player in experience vs the Sons' 60 games. That's an improvement, for every player (on average), of 15 games! Instead we had on the park approx 50 games per player, on average 10 less than the sons. In other words had Neeld chosen differently....there was NO "experience" excuse available to trot out. And potentially (and i emphasise potentially), we may have had a betterchance of pinching that game. And a win for this flailing club would have to be better than a loss at this point surely. The former 3 may not have the form to justify their place either, but who's fault is that? Might be their's, might be the coach and FD, might be a bit of both. But i think it was an easy "out" to ring in the youngsters and reel out the "Inexperience" excuse on the part of MN. Or at least it was optional so the decision to play such an inexperienced team, was MN's. No one elses.

Jeepers.....and just when i was getting a bit of hope back that we might start making some common sense decisions around the place.... thank guys But seriously, all the best to Magnet. I know the Jones boy was tweeting for the Magnet to get a guernsey soon. Hopefully this might lift his spirits a little. Not expecting too much until the mid field rotation numbers improve. Although if we throw Rodan and Tapscott into the mix it does give us a few more soldiers until Sylvia/Grimes return. Get Blease into some form off half back, perseveer with Evans to add some bite to the outside. Develop M Jones as another potential inside mid in the next year or 2 (slowly). There is hope yet for the mid field. Still needs lots of bolstering and new injections though. A long way off being competitive over a long 22 weeks.

Ok. Wonder how that's going then. Fair enough TD. Well i for one would love to see him back in any capacity, although i'm pretty sure he's beyond a senior coaching role (from his point of view i mean, just being realistic). But even as a motivational/mentor type assistant maybe. He had a way of getting the players to focus on game day and perform to their best most of the time. I'd have him back in a heart beat if he was willing and the right role could be found. Much admiration and fond memories of Swooper's era.

You mean....he might have topped this one!!?

Lol.... yeh we had a pretty strong unit there eh. Good times pants....good times mate. Let's hope we can repair the gaping holes in this sinking ship and start the bail out.....soon

Nut are you suggesting this club should become ruthless and do whatever it takes to get the best personnel off the field? Surely not. I don't think I could handle us doing this in order to become competitive once more. It would spoil the moral fibre and ethical fabric of everything we stand for surely. Besides, no other clubs are all that ruthless in getting their men! Tut tut, mind your tongue sir!

Nice work TD. Northey!!?? Where the hec is he at these days? Are you aware of something which made you bring him up? I knew he was running some coaching clinic business or something for training junior coaches? I'd never even thought of bringing back Swooper. Is he in a position to consider this or are we clutching at rusty old nails here?

And this is the flaw that has haunted the hallowed halls of the MFC for decade upon decade. Over weighted with business eagles and big wigs about town, sticking to their own and never truly letting go of thier power clique and "star chamber" culture. While the Star Chamber culture and faceless nature of the MFC board (president & 2ic) continues, this club will never taste ultimate success at the highest level IMO and will continue to wallow from one under performing decade to another. They will never allow true football people to take over (ie., a few more football experts at board level who have a ruthless football business background) and turn the club into what it needs to be. A bloody football club, there to cater for it's members and to foster and get the very best out of it's players and coaching staff. For without regular and consistent success by the latter, a football club withers at the roots, resulting in an unstable foundation and little fruit on the vine. If left for too long it will eventually wither and die. With success of the FD and players, the roots become embedded and eventually rock solid, finding sustenance from the new nutrients it finds (read members/sponsors/increased tv exposure via big matches/increased gate) and the tree will blossom and produce ample fruit once again. It's time for this board, and most attached/linked/feeding from it, to let go and allow the Melbourne Demons to find its roots once more. Only then will success and respect return once more to this once great club. I don't blame Neeld as he didn't appoint himself. It's the inept and closed (non-transperant) nature of the board. The rot starts at the head and works down. The MFC Board decided to appoint a 2nd untried coach within 4 years, along with a myriad of errors along the way. What we are witnessing now is the product of many earlier misdemeanors, some major and some minor, but in the end it's the sum of all parts that's led us to here.

Our last Senior Premiership at any level. I'll never forget Giles off the ground handball to Bailey for the winning goal. Nor having to scale the metal fence on the boundary without slipping off on a dewy night feeling a sense of surprise, shock but also great elation! From memory I think they call it...WINNING! [ youtube ] [ /youtube ]

Now now Angry, don't be too harsh on the late Denis Jones. Even he had the jump, ever so slightly, on Neeld. The 3 worst win loss records of any MFC coach (during home & away/regular season) in order are: 3. Denis Jones: 1978 Matches 22 Wins 5 Draws 0 Losses 17 Percentage 22.73 2. Eddie Drohan: 1910 Matches 18 Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 14 Percentage 22.22 1. Mark Neeld: 2012 to present Matches 29 Wins 5 Draws 0 Losses 24 Percentage 17.24

Doesn't have to be mid field coach in his first year or 2. Could replace Aaron Greaves as development coach. I wouldn't place him in as line coach just yet IF we could find a more experienced candidate. But even if we couldn't, Black coudn't do a worse job than Brian Royal. The mid field is our biggest fail and he must have had a fair say in what he wants on the list management side, so he is as responsible as Neeld here. Need a new Board/President first, followed by experienced Coach as selected by new board/President, annointed by Peter Jackson (AFL). This is another reason to move on Neeld ASAP. Craig in as caretaker. The new line up must include all time greats who have succeeded at the highest level. I believe this is our very last shot at getting this right. The consequences of not moving now and setting ourselves up for 2014 will be dire and most likely terminal (as in the club remaining in its present state as we know it).

One of many. However there were 2 other whoppers, one prior to 186 and 2 (including the unsacking and re-signing of CS) post 186. All 3 whopping mistakes included the involvement (at the bequest of the Gardner board and the then McLardy/Stynes led board) and input/advice of one Mr G Lyon. Lyon played a significant part in getting us to where we find ourselves right now ie, in a bucket load of chicken manure!

. ^^^ This."That sort of effort shouldn't need to be coached, and the fact that this week it does need to be coached is an indictment of the playing group." It shouldn't but it needs to be there as a bare minimum pass mark and part of any coach's 101 manual player non-negotiables. It sounds from Dawes's comment like it wasn't. Another Neeld fail. "If things are going to improve and we're going to achieve some sustained success, it will be gradual. There will be no silver bullets." The word IF worries me here. If the players truly believed in where Neeld was directing them to me he would be starting with the word WHEN not IF. I have yet to see anything "gradual" other than most players either stagnating or regressing. I don't think any genuine Demon fan is expecting a magic silver bullet in the first 3 years. But we certainly weren't expecting a team to come out in its 2nd season under Neeld bereft of skills, belief, fight and generally uncompetitive and unwatchable at AFL level, expecially against start up clubs and clubs that are heading south. Massive fail. "The only silver bullet will be effort." Hold on, I thought you just said there would be "no silver bullet"? If trying your guts out every week and giving your all for the club that's paying you a hefty fee is considered a silver bullet in your mind (and i wonder how many others in the FD/list) then it's no wonder we are where we are. Again, this is something most professional footballers and clubs consider a non-negotiable and part of a the natural order at this level. Sure, even the pros have off weeks and periods where their form aludes them, but very few will ever be accused of not giving their all in terms of effort. It's just a given that "effort" is part of a competitive animal's make up. That's why they play and why even the most docile of characters off the field (eg Bruce Doull, Matthew Scarlett) bring it once they cross the white line. This is not something that had to be coached into them at senior level. It was inherent and expected when they walked through the club doors. More effort might be a coach request at various times during a match or season. But I doubt if a senior Coach would ever have to explain and coach a whole week of "effort". As a coach you might be able to motivate and inspire greater effort from a base effort. But that base effort should arrive from the inherent competitive spirit within each individual. The fact that the group (almost as a whole) don't show this most weeks and haven't so far under Neeld is again, IMO, a massive fail on the part of Neeld and his team. "There is a magic bullet. It is SELF BELIEF. It is the coaches job to instil it in every player". So again, there is another magic bullet. And yes it certainly is the mark of a good quality coach and person to find & bring the best out of every player. I've seen very little or this during Neeld's stint so far and certainly neither belief or effort at the beginning of any match this year other than against the Lions in the first quarter where I believe we drew the quarter and that was against a depleted out of form outfit. Sorry Chris, nice try but I believe the only magic bullet from here will be when/if we can find an experienced coach that brings and is able to bring out the skills and belief in the playing group to a base minimum level of competitivess and accepts nothing less from a player than an AFL level competitive effort at the very least. And who also expects and prepares his team to win every week and prepares them accordingly, both physically, mentally and with an AFL skill level (eg, quick movement and transition of the ball with minimal turnovers) that allows/assists them to do so.

I'm also in the Craig boat as the logical caretaker coach from here Stu. Unfortunately I cant see much happening before the buy. The board and president probably arent in a position to act given PJ's still in review mode. Probably frozen in fear too, a bit like the players it would seem.

Mate we obviously don't have the cattle at Casey to throw all of these players to Casey. That's why i said 1 tackle OR none shouldn't play this week..... Some who had few tackles may have contributed in other ways. What i'm trying to say here is that if Neeld TRULY believes in his original mantra, which HE spelt out and displayed for all to see in his first "impact" meeting with the player group.....then he needs to seriously act after Sunday. My summary on players' tackle counts is just my way of giving one KPI example. Neeld would obviously have his own minimum KPIs on each player. All i'm saying is, on that performance, many wouldn't have met them. Whether his KPI's are over 1 week or a rolling 3 or whatever. But he surely can't keep many of the same group that's played in the last 3 weeks IF he's being true to himself and his original mantra. If that's changed then he should spell it out and make it clear that he's changed his thinking since he first came to the club. He obviously has but all we hear now is lame excuses, including ones pre match which warn us of the pending likely armageddon. No wonder the players are on a losing run......that's what he's implying they're likely to do every week in his pre match address. Never mentions the reason the club's here..... TO WIN games of footy! Where's the urgency, the fight, the emotion to strive and push for excellence and performance and get the best out of the players!?? And for that matter where are the 3 most important aspects of any successful sports person's mentality/actions in this group??..... 1. Belief 2. The will to win for themselves and their fellow mates (then club and us) 3. The skills to win ??? It was clear after the Bummers match that he had lost the players and had no idea how to get the boys up for the big stage or match, nor for that matter any match. Pretty sure we've lost every first quarter so far!! Neeld must go (or be moved aside into an assistants/development role) ASAP. Neil Craig is there and has finals experience and can caretake on extra $$ surely until we find a willing experienced replacement. I don't think we can afford to wait any longer. We'll lose too many key players by year's end otherwise, either mentally or to other clubs.

Classic post WYL. Wasn't sure whether to laugh or feel robbed. As Frankie is often want to say...... Honor before honors. As you've stated, the current president, board (in support of CS) swept 186 under the carpet and look at the outcome. And now they've gone to ground completely. Must be busy reinforcing their personal bunkers. One thing i do know is this club has little chance of surviving in its current form while this "Failed" board (and any member thereof) remains in place. If only we had a true Demon white knight ticket out there right now and someone with a strong football background to head it up as President. They could call for an extraordinary GM and spill. The writing's on the wall if massive changes don't occur at the top before season's end IMO. In many ways i hope PJ is truly going to stick a rocket through the halls, but at the same time i'm wary of what the AFL has in store. The Board has brought this upon us though so it's really no surprise given what's gone down at the club since 186.