Maldonboy38

Melbournefc website has confirmed that the one and only Juice has been delisted. At last!!! All the skill in the world but no real heart or desire. I cannot believe we have kept him for so long. Amid all the debate about the merits of Dean Bailey, his retention of Juice is one of the biggest question marks of all. What did he show behind the scenes that made the coaching and list management people think he added something to our list? But now, one space on our list is opened up for some potential talent, not Juice's let-downs.

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Melbourne website records the following:

Summary of Melbourne List Changes

Primary List Additions

- Mitch Clark (Exchanged with Brisbane Lions for pick No.12)

Primary List Changes

- Addam Maric (delisted)

- Austin Wonaeamirri (delisted)

- Matthew Warnock (traded to GC Suns)

- Tom Scully (GWS)

Rookie List Changes

- Cameron Johnston (delisted)

- Tom McNamara (delisted)

- Michael Newton (delisted)

- Robbie Campbell (retired)

I am really sad to see Wonna go. A genuine small forward with great skills and could really tackle.

McNamara was kept on last year but looks lost at AFL level.

And I never again have to type the words into a Demonland post "Pllleeeaasssseee no more Newton". Yes, my friends, he is gone. It really was a waste of a lot of skill. His kicking and marking are of a high quality but his desire to get the ball and get into the play was weak and timid.

PSD draft etc... is now very interesting.

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Just home from the training session. Took 3 of my kids with me and had a few shots on goal.

The surface of the Goschs Paddock training area is magnificent, but really slippery in runners. 

Collingwood were training at the same time on the actual oval, but the the Dees used the larger area right next to AAMI Park .

Although scheduled for 9:45am, the players didn't emerge until 10:15am which was a real bummer becasue I had to go soon after 11am. 

I stayed until about 11:15 but then had to scoot off.

The session was mainly running. However, during the warm up, one of the fitness coaches (I think it was Misson, but I am unsure) was barking out clear instructions as to how to do the stretching properly. He seemed very intense.

Sylvia, Strauss, Petterd and Tappy only graced the training session for 10 minutes warm up and then went back inside.

Evans ran about 10 - 12 400m laps on his own. He looks a lot bigger and this running didn't even break  a sweat.

Mitch Clark also ran laps on his own at a very leisurely pace. I am not sure if he is coming off surgery but he was nowehere near full tilt.

Lucas Cook and Aaron Davey ran laps in a pair and did not really interact with the other players after the warm up.

Jack Grimes and Jake Spencer also ran lapstogether.

Great to see Rohan Bail (I am a huge fan) particiapting fully. He is a born runner and ran with relative ease.

Jake Spencer is HUGE. He looks really cut and fit if still a little awkward. Boy I wish he could kick.

Morton does not look any bigger, but the the pre-season is just beginning. I hope the next four months means lots of gym work and about 5 - 7 kgs.

If Spencer is big, Max Gawn is a monolith, including the size of his head. In about 2 years time he will be an imposing figure.

The players split into groups of about 8 doing either 200m runs aroud the boundary or 400m runs, all at about 3/4 pace. This had been going for about 1/2 hour or more by the time I left.

Nothing special to report. It all seemed very run-of-the-mill but I prefer this than the hype that followed on Ben Cousins to Richmond for his first training session.

Neeld was doing very little. He stood near the centre of ther ground and interacted casually with the coaching staff, usually one on one.

We have a LOT of coaches. At one stage, when all the players were warming up, I counted 21 staff, and that did not include the physio staff who were over near a small marquee.

I took some photos, but I going to work in them a bit before posting. I hope I get a chance to do it today.

I wonder if GWS could take the mantle from Collingwood as most disliked club.....

I reckon you have captured the thoughts of many here, Bringback. With Tassie screaming out for a team, and with all the $ thrown in, and with the Scully deal, and two of the greatest knobs ever in Sheedy and Gubby - GWS have instantly become hated by a lot of AFl supporters, and not just Victorian supporters. The AFL are making a huge mistake by playing Sydney v GWS. A huge thrashing is on the cards. If they want GWS to have a stand alone game to start the season, why not ake it GWS v Goldcoast?

Personally, I like the Carlton v Tiges game to start the season. Tiges supporters having their hopes dashed in round one sounds about right doesn't it?

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Gun. Jamar/Martin/Clark has to be the best ruck division in the league. Stef will probably be immensely benefited by the addition of Leigh Brown to the coaching group, Brown was probably one of the trailblazers for the type of player a backup ruckman now needs be.

I reckon "gun" is going a bit too far but he is emerging from being a potential athletic talent into a genuine footballer. If he can take more marks in 2012, he will reek havoc on opposition teams because for some reason, other teams don't pay him the respect he is due. Love his 2nd and 3rd efforts, love his work rate, love his desire to take the game on through baulking and running around opponents. For mine, 2012 is the most exciting because of the likley improvement from him and Rohan Bail.

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If we look at his place on our LIST, rather then his place in our TEAM, and weigh up the correlation between potential and experience - surely a player like McCaffer could find a place on our list. Can anyone seruously suggest that he is a worse player than Newton or Dunn?

America de Cali was spot on above. McCaffer has strong history of playing to team discipline, playing a role. If this is what Neeld is aiming at, wouldn't we at least consider him?

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1. From memory, although we didn't get the ball inside 50 on enough occasions in 2011, once we did, we were one of the most efficient teams.

2. Our back six (with 9+ players able to rotate through) is our strength, apart from the kick ins.

3. Apart from a poor game plan, our great weakness was defensive pressure from midfielders and forwards. We could't hold a game, or hold the ball in a space on the ground that then set up a play that allowed us to move it into our forward line. At least not very often.

I feel really positive about 2012 because the language and content coming out of the coaching staff is about role playing, defensive pressure etc...

I feel really positive about 2012 because with MItch Clark in our forward line I expect Jurrah, Watts and Howe to shine.

Neeld has given us a line to hang our expectations on. i.e. "Melbourne will be the hardest team to play against in the AFL". These are statements about attiude and culture that we have not seen or heard in a long while.

But (and just like the Duchess of York - a very big butt) at this satge it is all list management, drafting and pre season talk.

I reckon we are aiming at position 7 - 10 but I would be disappointed being 10th.

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I wouldn't go for him but he has talent. He is not a list clogger etc...I have seen him play 2 or 3 games and he is definielty not a dud.

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We need one or two players of Mitch Clark's impact or better. We do not need any more B graders, or even potential A graders. We have a list full of these players. Farren Ray maybe, but like Nasher said, unless they are offering Reiwodlt, Del Santo or Hayes, the Saints do not have what we need.

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B: Garland Frawley Tapscott

HB: Blease Rivers Grimes

C: Jones Trengove Bail

HF: Jurrah Watts Green

F: Davey Clark Howe

R: Jamar Sylvia Moloney

Int.: Mckenzie Gysberts Martin

Sub: Petterd

I would prefer Tapscott and Grimes to be rotated through the midfield but the backline looks so good with both of them there (apart from Grimes kicking!)

Gawn is stiff to miss.

Probably need to squeeze Bartram in - but for who?

I can't fit Morton in. (and on 2011 form Idon't want to)

Davey only just holding his spot, and I reckon he might lose it to Bate

The HF line looks a bit flighty - maybe swap Watts and Clark?

However, I reckon 2012 will spring one or two surprises. A new coach brings out talent and hard work in unexpected people. I am looking forward to Bail firing up, and I reckon one of Jetta, Bennell, Evans or Nicholson will emerge as a real talent. I hope it is Jetta.

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Great piece, well written if a little loaded.

We all love the skill of our game and those who excel at it. Davey at his best is breath-taking. But he had a horror 2011 and has shown he crumbles under a tag. Fortunatley he has demonstrated already that he is coachable, having changed his role a few times and actually inventing two of them. He will rise again. But if he is not able to play with that skill we must select someone who can.

Disagree about your insights into Moloney and the type of players who win grand finals. Look at the list of Norm Smith medalists:

2010 Lenny Hayes

2009 Paul Chapman

2008 Luke Hodge

2007 Steve Johnson

2006 Andrew Embley

2005 Chris Judd

2004 Byron Pickett

2003 Simon Black

2002 Nathan Buckley

2001 Shaun Hart

2000 James Hird

There is a solid mix of gifted players, hard mongrels, and grunters in that list.

We need 20 of our starting 22 firing most weeks to win a flag, not just the skillful boys.

Every visionary leader needs a 2IC - someone with enough grunt to implement what the leader sees. Cam Schwab is an exceptional manager and we need to keep him for as long as we can. But he is NOT a 2IC. He is a behind the scenes project builder.

To make the changes that we see unfolding before us, Jimmy needed a no nonsense, bullish 2IC for a short term to get his vision running again. It stalled in 2011. Garry Lyon has played this role to perfection. I believe he will stay on board until preseason begins and together, he and Jimmy can see if all the restructuring, position moving, and recruiting are gelling together to make the vision come to pass.

Garry has provided an invaluable service.

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Great post, Pitmaster. You have concisely and accurately summed up the broad perspective view of the Dees.

Ever since Joe Gutnik (as annoying as he was, we would have died without him and his $) the MFC have been scrambling to build a business model, club structure, and supporter base. Much of this time and effort has had neither of the two vital ingredients: an over-arching vision that draws people into it, and the right people to achieve it.

Enter one J. Stynes. Vision and leadership at an exceptional level

Enter two. G Lyon. Short term mission with no b/s requiring yes or no answers to join Jimmy's vision.

For the first time since the mid 1990's I am genuinely excited about the life of the whole club.

Great leadership

Expert management

Correct personnel

Marketing/promotional emphasis (ourr players in the TV footy shows, on ads on TV, artivcles in newspapers, our colours and history etc...)

An exciting, if incomplete, player list

A planned coaching panel mixing potential, innovation and experience.

This is Jimmy's legacy to date. Doff your caps, boys, to the lanky Irishman. Charge your glasses ans jump on board. Also, don't be suprised if the best clubman award gets renamed in the near future and it becomes as sought after as the Bluey.

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Lots of players debut poorly (Frawley, Jamar etc...) and especially big fellas. Fitzy's debut was particularly poor and his basic skill set looked vulnerable. Having said that, Newton's skills are of a very high standard yet his efforst at AFL level are so bad. It is his average ability at marking and his horrible kicking action that are the main worry. If these are poor at training and in Casey games, imagine what Collingwood, Hawthorn or Geelong would do to them?

The biggest issue for him are the players who are ahead of him for the kind of spot in the 22 that he might fill.

Tall Forwards: Watts, Cook, Martin,

Rucks: Jamar, Gawn, Spencer,

Defence: Garland, Frawley, T McDonald, Rivers

As for being quick, both Watts and Martin are quicker.

I don't think Fitzy is going to make it but we do have to give him time to find that out. And there are others who need to be delisted/traded before him. I think he should remain with us for another two years.

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Looking at the shuffling and restructuring that has already taken place, I would love to see:

Carey as forward line coach. He has a huge ego but I reckon some strut and arrogance would really help Watts, Jurrah and Jurrah. He is pig-headed but his insights are usually spot on. I put Dermot in the same category but I don't reckon he will leave his media roles.

Ayres for backline coach. I don't reckon he would leave Port Melbourne because he is doing an amazing job, but he has senior AFL experience, is a cool head under pressure, and every tream he has coached has been strong defensivley.

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Bate. Although I am a huge fan of his, he showed little at AFL level until late in the season. But I reckon a new coach may spark something in him. Keep him.

Dunn. Delist. Has a huge body and is an excellent kick for goal but is a terrible decision maker and has no other AFL level attributes. However, look what Malthouse did with Leigh Brown.

Maric. Keep him on the list and see if Neeld can make a small forward out of him.

McNamara. Delist. This should have been done at the end of 2010

Newton. Delist. Pleeeeaaassseee!!!!

Campbell. Delist. Four ruckman, three of them already very capable at AFL level.

Warnock. He is an AFL standard player and will get an opportunity elsewhere.

I hope we don't lose Jetta or Wonna.

Unsure about Bartram. His defensive pressure is so good, as is his ability to get the ball, but his kicking...!!! Anyone remember the ruckman from the PIes, Manson? Bartram gives me the shudders every time I see him running through half back ready to deliver.

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Krakouer's mark is a beauty, but the thing about Walker's is the hang time. Staying up there is rally hard to do, and Walker was up there for a long time. for mine, Krakouer was about 5th or 6th.

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Senior Coach: Mark Neeld

Forward Line Coach: Wayne Carey

Midfield Coach: Scott West

Back line Coach: Gary Ayres

Development Coach: Todd Viney

Innovations Coach: Dave Dunbar

General Manager, List Managment: Tim Harrington

General Manager, Football Operations: Neil Craig

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Backline. This is not our weakness. Bailey focussd on this area first, recruited and developed well, and we have 8 - 9 players who can rotate through there. However, we don't have a play maker, "quarterback" like Scotland, Leon Davis, Josh Hunt, Birchall or Guerra. All top four sides now have this player.

Midfield. Sylvia, Moloney, Jones provide grunt and hard bodies. Bail, Blease the run. Davey if he can ever recapture his dash and dare. Trengove pure class. Gysberts hopefully in the mould of Pendlebury. Midfield needs time and maybe one more classy A-grader apart from Trengove.

Forward. This is our weakness. No crumbing forward (how will Wonna or Maric go under Neeld?) No power forward yet, Cook and Watts to come but having only these 2 options makes the list too thin.

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I wonder how Brad Green will play and lead under a new coach?

Anyway, Jack Grimes for mine, with Trengove, Jones and Rivers as assistants.

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1. Ferocious attack on the footy
   
2. No excuses for poor kicking when kicking inside 50 free of pressure
   
3. Team game plan and structure is everything
   
4. Consistency of performance
   
5. Train hard play hard
   

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When it was first announced I honestly didn't feel too much at all. It felt a bit similar to Bailey's appointment; a low key appointment with little hoo-haa. Having listened to the interview I have changed direction on this 180 degrees. Ned from above wrote that Neeld is articualte enough to convey a tough message in a polite manner, and this is exactly what I sensed in the interview. I am genuinely excited about the prospect of Neeld but having been a Dees follower for enough years I can't get carried away - I have been burnt too many times.

But I am enthused by the following:

He sees places in our starting 22 that our currnet list can't fill (small crumbing forward, key position forward, the "quarterback" play maker?)

He has made demands about the coaching setup. We need a strong, demanding personality after Daniher and Bailey.

He wants us to be the hardest team to play. I almost had a sportgasm when he said this!!!

Major two influences are Blight and Malthouse

He has some absolute values that his players cannot compromise.

I live down near Casey and am gonna love visiting pre-season training this year. Can't wait for 2012.

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Even if MFC had recruited Lyon this way I would feel the same. No one disagrees with coaches being sacked if it is required, or coaches looking at other options. But don't look people in the eye saying, "yeah I want to coach", or "yes, you have full support of the Board" etc...

People have to have the guts and integrity to say what they are thinking and planning. Lyon needed to say to the Saints "I am listneing to other offers"

Freo had to say to Harvey "we have these problems with your coaching" and then give him time to implement the changes.

But this clandestine, lying, in-your-face, brazen spin is an insult to all those people kept in the dark by the creative planning of others. If you haven't got the guts to speak and act according to your plans, leave it someone who has.

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This issue has got under my skin in a big way. In my mind's eye, I see those black and white TV images of the Red Fox Norm Smith being interviewed and saying, "I'm Melbourne, through and through". The MFC at the time thought centralised control was more important than integrity. Horrible event.

I don't mind a coach or player negotiating outside their management because I am convinced that most leaking of sport stories comes from player/coach managers in order to build currency in their "product".

I don't mind a club like Freo speaking to Lyon, and offering him a huge deal.

But I hate, really hate, that a coach can be in team meetings post season, in front of media, speaking to Board members to whom he is accountable and give every indication that he is staying, begin to plan 2012 when it is deliberately misleading. We have all been to a job interview while continuing to work for our current employer; but to deliberatley mislead - horrible.

What about all that stuff with Luke Ball?

How can R Lyon look Riewoldt in the eye and talk about leadership, integrity, perseverance etc...

But worse than all this is the treatment of Mark Harvey. He is an unusual man and a poor media performer. But I think he has done an amazing job at Freo. But even if he was a poor coach, to have no idea he was going to be sacked and all the officials meeting with him and discussing players for 2012, while they were plannig his demise - really poor form. In the words of Derryn Hnch - shame, shame, shame.

AFL is a tough, competitive, professional environment and none of us want to see this edginess diminish. However, call me old fashioned, but some honour among men would be nice for a change.

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No - put the number in mothballs for a season or two. The whole Scully episode (if he does announce his GWS signing that now looms imminent) has placed a shadow over this famous jumper that should not be tolerated and never repeated. Sam Blease is a great footballer but he would feel like the second choice which is unfair so put no. 31 away until someonje has "earnt" it.

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