nutbean

I just don't think we are the position to judge and looks can be deceiving. Cameron Bruce gave good service to our club but it can't be denied that in the back end of his career he did try to kill some of his teammates with his disposal and decision making. He had a fairly obvious fall out with the club but is now a highly respected assistant coach at Hawthorn. I think we sometimes look too narrowly at personalities that will make good coaching material ( passionate, focused, driven) but from the outside we just don't know. I certainly would not have seen Bruce or Yze as potential coaches in the same way that I don't see it in Garland either. But who the hell knows ?

Further to this - I think I will no longer open this thread as reading at least 8 months of self flagellation is bound to bad for ones health...

He jumper punched himself.

The one thing I learned from the Scully debacle is I have plenty of time to get anxious/depressed/distraught if the worse case eventuates and he leaves. As I know nothing and as know one else knows little more, until there is something concrete I will assume he is staying and enjoy the ride.

just a point of order - don't all players fly around the country to play football anyway - it doesn't interfere with preparation - clubs take flying it into account when mapping out their preparations. ( and yes - it may mean that his preparation is slightly different to other players but these days players have different weekly preparations anyway and there is no longer a one size fits all)

not so much that - i think that you can critique a player like Lucas Cook - he didn't have the intestinal fortitude to be an AFL footballer, nor did he possess enough pace for a man his size or marking ability and his decision making skills and disposal were not good enough. That's a critique - that's pointing out short comings. Fair game in the competitive AFL environment. "He's a spud" is plain disrespectful.

I suppose there are degrees. No problem with a player being called fringe. I'm not sure about being described ordinary or average. I simply detest a footballer (for any team) being called a spud.

I was trying to morph into "hill folk" speak

I don't read anything into what players do or don't say after getting 2nd degrees burns with Scully but them there are some bizarro comments.

Now THAT we can both agree on .........

Someone suggested that we shouldn't post our old posts just to give ourselves a pat on the back - I am reposting this to give myself a swift kick in the nads.

don't post nutbean don't post nutbean don't post nutbean

Alright - my last attempt then i will retire gracefully (sorry Nasher - I can't help myself and RPFC - the dead horse needs one more flogging ) You keep mixing up what we know now with what information was known at draft time. In retrospect was Toumpas a horrible mistake ? You won't get an argument from anyone. Was he mistake at draft time with all that was known ? Did he have a poor attitude or a non AFL level attitude at draft time ? Probably not. I never said you said that Gartlett had the right attitude to make it at AFL but he obviously convinced Hawthorn ( who are no slouch's) that he did have the right attitude or he wouldn't have been drafted and look how that turned out. Yet you blithely suggest that Toumpas never had the right attitude and if we asked the right questions we would have known that. Staggering. And irrespective of your thoughts on Darling's incidents being overblown - he was highly touted and slipped past many clubs because of his PERCEIVED attitude. Would I have him now ? In a heartbeat. But following your logic - many clubs must have not asked him the right questions as he slipped purely based on his attitude. So for the last time ( I promise Nasher/RPFC i will not respond again) - were Toumpas and Morton a mistake at the time - probably not - they were drafted where their talent dictated they should be drafted (history now tells us otherwise) . Was Cook a mistake ? He was not a mistake because we should have taken Darling. Cook and Strauss were mistakes because there were other footballers better credentialed available at that pick

It is always folly to say "we are a better team on paper" as paper is not what takes to the footy field each week. To my mind, we are better than StKilda ( this season) but as is constantly said by all and sundry if you don't turn up to play you will get beaten and we did that against StKilda and Essendon

OMG 1/ I remember that game fondly. 2/ We are way too old.

did you play for Mazenoid ? I recall one of players spinning out of pack and promptly going doing like he had been stabbed - and he limped off the ground with a little pocket knife jammed in his thigh. Needless to say - game called off and Mazenoid removed from the competition. We had a player who played for our school with his arm broken and in plaster - he wore a long sleeved jumper and a glove to hide his plaster cast - you did not want him behind you going the big spoil.

We actually have bemoaned in the past not having a plan B but I have noticed that both Watts and Hogan spend time up the field and although Gawn has pushed forward this year he did so more than i have seen before on Saturday. That makes us unpredictable. When it does get crowded up forward and Jesse can struggle in a very closed forward line they have moved him up the ground to very good affect. I would much prefer him kicking lots of goals but against Richmond and Collingwood where he didnt really impact the scoreboard greatly he took 10 and 9 marks and thats because he went further up the ground. ( even spending the last parts of quarters as a defender) Good coaching for mine ...

I actually like him when rotates between FF and CHF as he does work very hard at CHF and moves around well - he is currently 9th in the league for marks and i would suggest that many of those have been taken further up the field.

sigh... correct... But to quote Al Pacino in the Godfather 111 - "just when I thought I was out of the Jimmy Toumpas debate , they pull me back in"

And I will say that an under 18 footballer playing senior level football in South Australia against men and captaining his state at TAC level tells me you are wrong and probably doesn't lack in attitude. A little history - remember this post ? "Can't believe people can still defend the Darling/Cook decision. Our number 12 pick is still struggling in the Casey 2's. The alternative is about to play in his second final series as a major player. The MFC really blew this one, and i hope people never forget it." Now tell me exactly how you think he would have gone on interview after an underage nightclub incident and being expelled from his school - what questions would you ask about his "attitude" back in his drafting days ? (counter that with the Dayle Gartlett who was also a bad boy who apparently made all the right noises to Hawthorn about his attitude - you don't think that Hawthorn asked him the right questions ?) It seems to me that we should have seen right through a player who had a good atttitude and also seen right through a player who had a questionable attitude - I think we need a mind reader combined with a fortune teller on our payroll. You can make all the noises you like about attitude - I would suggest that Toumpas's attitude would have been A plus - but you have to be able to translate that attitude onto the field - he did that at under age level and has failed miserably at AFL level.

I am now a believer that if we play up to a high standard and get contributions from most then we will be in all games up to our necks. We didn't get beaten by StKilda and Essendon because they are better than us - we were beaten because they played better than us. We got beaten by North because they were a bit more mature than we are and a loss is a loss but I was disappointed rather than angry ( I was angry after the Saints and Bombers games) I'm with you - it doesn't matter who they put out on the field - it is up to us.

Here is some of Emma's work 2010 draft - .http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-future-is-in-their-hands-20101117-17xqp.html Here is some of Kevin Sheehan's work from 2012 - http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/department-of-trade/afl-talent-manager-kevin-sheehan-brings-you-the-top-30-draft-prospects-from-around-australia/story-fna8vsun-1226516091894 I am not putting the knock on these watchers of talent - I am saying they have a limited amount of information to then formulate opinions. There is a certain amount of crystal balling involved and a lot is right and lot is equally wrong.

But he wasn't drafted from the AFL - he was drafted from the TAC and there was no knock on his appetite for the contest at the underage level and that is the point you continually miss. Stating the obvious - players can only be rated at the time of the drafting on their resume to date. I have spent the last 10 minutes having a bit of a flick and have a look at this comment from Emma Quayle who is well respected junior talent watcher on Steele Sidebottom and Chris Yarran - ( you got this one well and truly wrong Emma!) Where Sidebottom ends up will be one of the more interesting aspects of this draft. I am a big Yarran fan and think on pure class and brilliance he's a level above Steele and the others you mentioned.

This .......

So what you are saying is that the entire football industry that watches and comments on under age football is blind or on narcotics. I certainly agree that he has been a major disappointment but ... "He was drafted by Melbourne with the fourth selection in the 2012 AFL Draft, after playing for Woodville-West Torrens in the South Australian National Football League. He made his SANFL senior debut late in the 2011 season and he played in Woodville West-Torrens' 2011 premiership side in only his fifth game.[1] He was the captain of the South Australian team at the 2012 AFL Under 18 Championships[2] and was named in the All-Australian team at the conclusion of the tournament.[3] " Played in a senior comp in 2011, Captained his state and made all Australian and he didn't have "attitude" ? People have pointed to his hips and said that should have rung huge warning bells - why doesn't the same apply to Max Gawn who had a knee reconstruction prior to being drafted ? Some are rewriting history about a very very talented under age footballer who has become a very very disappointing AFL footballer.