The Chazz

Maybe re-read the posts. You asked if there is a ready-made Hale-type out there in other leagues. I doubted there is, and suggested PJ. You're the one that picked up the bone and ran a mile with it.

If we don't find a full forward to pinch hit in the ruck, as you mentioned may not happen, then who will we play in the ruck position when Jamar needs a rest?

That's fine HG, you're entitled to your opinion, just like I am. I'm not going to treat you like you have leprosy just because our opinions are different. I, like most in the AFL community, would believe that the way they have played over the past 4 years would have generated more premierships than 2. They lost one that they should have won, maybe theywon one that they should have lost, and I think this year, Thompson's arrogance had a fair bit to do with them in losing both those finals (as well as other factors). They still finished 2nd this year, so obviously were expected to challenge for a premiership. How I look at it - I rate Brisbane as the team of the Decade. Winning 3 flags in a row was an amazing effort based on how the AFL is now (with even draft methods, salary caps, etc). Geelong should have been the best of the decade, but don't think they tasted the ultimate success enough to take it from Brisbane. Based on their on & off field performances, this to me means they have under performed.

My opinion of being underperformed is based on some people's claim of them being the best side of all time. Thanks for clarifying that they don't award premierships based on your win/loss record. I seriously question where you're coming from sometimes RR...loser. And what makes my opinion "wrong", and further, what makes you think you're always "right"? How hard is it for you to understand what my opinion is in regards to this? I have a number of Geelong supporting friends, and while they are stoked to have won 2 out of the last 4, they believe that the Club could have probably done better. Ask anyone at the Club, and I'm sure they'll say the same thing. The way they have dominated the league over the past 4 years, it would be fair to expect more than 2 premierships. They had the potential/ability to win 4 straight, some experts are saying they are the best ever, and they are the ones I am disagreeing with. The fact that they only won half of what they seriously could've (and that includes them losing that Hawks one), to me = underperforming. I would say the same if it were Melbourne, but as I said in another post, I would still be stoked with 2 flags. I can assure you. I'm going to continue to have an opinion, and obviously my last couple are quite different to yours. But this having to justify every single fine detail for your little power trip is making you look like a bigger d!ckhead, than it is me for voicing an opinion and sticking to it. I'm more than happy to have my opinion changed, BY ANYONE, but RR, it will take someone with more intelligence than you.

Perfectly put! Are we now all in favour of this comment???!!!

It's typical of you B59 - you're happy to argue the opinion of others, but when they start throwing questions back at you about your comments, you don't answer them. Would Worsfold expect his biggest forward to kick most of their goals or take strong overhead marks? NO, because his leading goal kicker is a 182cm forward/crumber called LeCras.

Thanks pops. So, if you beleive the full forward doesn't have to pinch hit in the ruck, who will we turn to should Jamar require a spell?

Ok, RPFC, I will sit and wait until after the drafts, and if we haven't picked up that 21-25 year old FF/ruck from the state leagues, we will have this discussion again. Is PJ a great option - NO Is PJ our only option - YES Therefore, I'm one supporter that will give this guy a go in that role, so YES, he is a good option. Until he has played 10+ straight games in this role, I can't understand how anyone can say he is a bad choice.

In a non-traditional full forward role that I belive the Club are hoping for, YES.

Well, considering their win/loss record over the past 4 years, I think 2 premierships would be par. Bruisbane winning 3 in a row would be clubhouse leaders, Geelong should be but I don't htink they are. The Melbourne era between the mid 50's and early 60's would be above that. That said, I would love to barrack for an underperforming team if it were to win 2 premierships!

Can Bate play 2nd ruck? Next.

Ok, so the main aim of our full forward is to take the number 1 defender. Now, isn't that what the coaching staff are trying to do? Gett he number 1 defenders away from Jurrah and Watts? Regardless of if the full forward kicks a goal, he has already achieved one of his KPI's. So, after 5 or 6 weeks of minimal goals returned from our full forward, will the opposition sides think "bugger it, this bloke hasn't kicked any goals, let's put our 2nd or 3rd defender on him". Jackpot, even PJ will outmark such defenders more often than not. One thing about him, his kicking for goal is very good. I love playing games, so thanks for introducing this pop quiz. Approx 25 metres our within a 45 deg arc on both sides is the most effective place to kick goals from. Cool, now, in the Travis Cloke thread you thought Melbourne should strongle consider him if he were available. Well, in answer to your little quiz, I would think Cloke, Collingwood's Full Forward, was a liability in that "locale". I'm sure you will argue that Cloke is a CHF, but you were implying that he would be that Full Forward that we need. Now, a little pop quiz for you. Take a look at the top 10 leading goal scorers of 2010. How many are designated full forwards? I'll do it for you - 1. J Reiwoldt, 2. B Hall, 3. L Franklin, 6. M Pavlich, 9. J Roughead, 10. J Brown. That means, 4 of the top 10 were smaller forwards, including our very own Brad Green. So, 60% of the leading goal kickers were Big Full Forwards, but guess what, there aint no Hall, Reiwoldt, Franklin, etc available. In summary, Brad Green is our key forward, without being a full forward. Adding a big body down there will not change that, and again, regardless of who it is, my expectation would be for the Full Forward to kick around 30 goals for the year. PJ can do that, and if you don't believe it, pull your head out of your a$$. You are right, PJ may not be on our list in 5 days, but there's more chance he will be than us picking up Sinclair in the draft. Differnce between mine and your arguement, currently, PJ is on our list, currently, we have no alternative. IF in 5 days he is still there, and IF after the draft we got someone like Sinclair, then I will hold my judgement until I've seen a couple of practice matches. Lastly, I think you are a long, long way off the mark if you think J-Pod is Geelong's answer, with 2011 being a massive year for the man. He is competing with Hawkins, Mooney and Ottens for 3 spots - Number 1 ruck, Full Forward and Centre Half Forward. Unless Geelong decide to play a spare ruck on the bench, which I hope they do, but it's doubtful, that means the Full Forward or CHF will have to play 2nd ruck. Mooney used to be able to do it, they wouldn't do it to him now. Hawkins has had 12 months as a developing number 2 ruck, Ottens is a given, so that leaves 1 man, J-Pod. Guess what, he struggles int he ruck, so he may well find it difficult to hold his spot. The FD couldn't give a toss what you think the definition of our Full Forward is. While you are correct in some regards about what a Full Forward should do, you have absolutely no idea if this is what the FD is wanting him to do. To be quite honest, I think you are a fair way off the mark with your expectations, going by what some at the Club have said.

Thanks Sylv, I'm glad someone else in here understands. Sadly, it means you and I know jack about football, or we do know a lot and there are a hell of a lot that don't!

The Big O is not a suitable option. I have watched a number of his games for many years, and while a great VFL player, would struggle with consistency in the AFL. Wasn't it PJ that the Casey coach commented about a few times during the year about being at a higher level than the VFL? I can't recall, think it was, but may be wrong. Orren is suited at VFL level.

Bad Boy Bubby. We sniffed around for a suitable player, we didn't get our man, we have minimal option of being able to pull one out of our rear. Hence me stating that PJ is, like it orr lump it, most likely going to be that man for a major part of the first part of the season. Regardless of your, and others opinion of his ability, we have nothing else! I'm happy for you to throw up an alternative for me, but you just can't. Hasn't Bailey come out and pretty much described the role as a "last resort" option when going forward? And the big area we need to lift is in the amount of goals we score from stoppages and crumbing packs? That to me lowers the expectations of such Full Forward to take big strong, Neitz-like marks. Neitz was a fine player, a great player, but sadly, their aren't any 23 year old Neitz's on offer, not to play season 2011 anyway.

So, generally we have to move 3 on through retirements, delisting or trade. 1. Cameron Bruce - retired 2. Danny Hughes - delist. Will need to consolidate a spot in the seniors otherwise he's gone. Been in the system a long long time. 3. Addam Maric - trade. Wont get a huge amount for him, but I can see him playing for the Roos,or maybe even the Bombers. 4. Matthew Bate - trade. I think he will still be under contract(?), but if we get a full season out of Petterd, and if Dunn steps up again, Bate is in serious trouble. Think the only remaining delisting this year will be TMac, demoted to the rookie list to free up a spot. I saw a few people say that Joel Mac will need to lift. I think he is safe for the next 2-3 years. He adds a fair bit of mongrel and experience down back. Is a very courageous player, and will have benefited from 1 season under a new coach/club. I'm expecting a bit 2011 from him. No chance Bennel will get delisted in the near future either. If he can add that bit of courage, he will be easily in our top 10. The appointment of T Viney will hpefully see Benny and the Jet come along in leaps and bounds this coming season. If Todd can develop their midfield abilities, they will be a very importnat piece in this puzzle. Edit - Just realised Hughes is a rookie. The end of 2011 not looking good for him, or Bate for that matter.

I know, I know. BUT WHO??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I'm talking 2011, trade period is over, are we going to get this person from either drafts? I do like the look of that Sinclair (from the AFL wensite highlights), but we're no certainty of snaring him. Spencer in my opinion will never cut the mustard. Options are getting skinnier and skinnier (no offence Fitzy, you will fill out one day!).

Mixed emotions about this. Great "average" player, tough as old boots, but would often slaughter Melbourne. How wonderful is it with all these departures down at [censored] park? Fringe players getting traded, losing a star to the Gold Coast, their President retiring, Coaches and Assistant Coaches leaving, 3 or 4 blokes that will see 2011 as their last seasons, fan-freakin-tastic. Considering how good they have been for the past 4 years, has their been a more under=performing side in recent times? Maybe St Kilda (considering the quality they had on their list). For RR's benefit, yes, they did win 2 flags in the past 4 years, but really, with their consistent performances, they should have won an extra 1 if not 2. Potential to be the most successful team of the modern era, now can't be in the same category as the Lions of the early '00s. Nb. I rate success on premierships, not total games won for a period of time.

Nah mate, just a realist! See my above post for my reasons - it was a process of elimiantion, and a process of accepting reality in regarsd to us picking up such player through the VFL/SANFL/AFLQ/etc

Fair points, I seriously disagree, but your opinion is fine. Reality is, we have minimal chance of picking someone in the draft that can have an immediate impact in that position, we may fluke someone in the PSD, but again, it's doubtful, I think we are clutching at straws hoping to find our saviour in one of the secondary leagues, therefore, the only realistic option is to look at our options; Spencer = NAFFA (Not a full forwards a$$hole) Gawn = will be lucky to play senior footy at all this year Fitzy = unknown, may provide it, doubtful for early 2011, may sneak in for a handful of games in the 2nd half Newton = NAFA (similar to Spencer, but is Not A Footballer's A$$hole) Sylvia/Dunn = Are not swing rucks Martin = My man, but not from round 1. Missed a lot of footy in 2010. I have been calling for him to play this position for over 12 months, but needs to show form first. Johnson = Our only legitimate option from round 1. Sook all you like about his ability, but unless you would rather see Jamar at full forward and Spencer in the ruck, you're gunna dry your eyes because we got nothing else.

Think it was quite immature using that rolling eyes picture too. There are more requirements for this role we have than just taking above-head marks, perhaps you should understnd the role we are needing to fill, then you may see that, regardless of your opinion of PJ, that he may tick a number of the boxes that Hale or even White would have filled.

He would not be expected to mark everything kicked at him. If we moved the ball quick enough inside to him in a one-on-one, I personally believe he would mark more than he drops. When you think about it, not many Full Forwards that aren't the number 1 forward for that team, not many of them would mark as much as they would like. I have explained how I see that role having a massive impact on our team, being a key marking option doesn't even rate in the top 5 KPI's for me. B59, you have pretty much proved my point. Yeah sure, he may not be strong at marking above his head. But can he make a contest? Will that mean the ball hits the ground?? Isn't that what we are hoping any of the players we put in that role can achieve? I'm also predicting the delivery from our midfielders to be of a higher standard that what we have experienced in the past 6 or 7 years, so I would think PJ would take most of his marks on a lead.

Obviously the FD are looking for a more mature body than a kid aged 18-22 for the next couple of seasons at least. By this time, we are hoping that Gawn/Fitzpatrick may be that big body that can play this role. So, as we missed out on Hale (and didn't get Jesse White), it is natural to think that we should look further afield to fill this need. The concern I have is just how much will the J-pod experiment pay off for a team that is far better than us? Sure, he kicked some bags, but on the MCG he was mostly useless, and come finals time, he was rarely sighted. Prior to this year, the VFL has produced minimal in the way of ready made players who came in and made an impact. Barlow and J-Pod did this year (don't forget what I wrote about J-Pod though), so do we really think that gap filler is running around in these leagues now? To be honest, I'm doubtful. Trying to pick up a 24-27 year old, proven FF that can pinch hit in the ruck, but most importantly, expecting them to have an impact at AFL level is bordering on dreaming! So, what's my suggestion/input to this thread? Well, I have just finished watching the replay of the Melbourne/Sydney game from Round 17 - the game where we couldn't do a thing wrong! Paul Johnson played all over the ground that day, and I have to admit, when he was deep in the forward line, he was dangerous. Now, before you PJ-haters start eating your computer screen, what is this role we need filled? It's not to expect our Full Forward to come in and kick 100+ goals for the year, my expectation would be to get 30 goals out of him (I would love to know what the FD's expectation would be). Where this player will be most valuable is ensuring we get the ball to ground as much as we can (when he doesn't mark it), to ensure over crumber's are having more of an impact. They obviously need to ruck maybe 5-7 minutes per quarter, and ensure that sides don't get on top of us during Jamar's rest period. My question is "Why CAN'T PJ play this role"? His kicking for goal is quite accurate. His decision making may let him down at times, but if he is contesting anywhere up to 60m out from goal, and if he manages to have the ball in his hands, it will generally be from mark or free kick. His decision would have been made for him so he doesn't have to think - if he is in range, have a shot! His ruck work is competitive, in 2009 he was our main ruckman from memory. The other thing to think about is that all clubs are in the same boat. Sides like Sydeny, Geelong, etc wont have the luxury of playing 2 rucks, plus a tall forward line, otherwise they risk not having that extra runner in the team. So, use Geelong for example, Ottens is an automatic selection, do they play him forward and Blake as the number 1 ruck, or start Ottens in the ruck and have either Blake, Hawkins or West play as either a tall forward/ruck, or actually start them on the bench (taking up one of only 3 interchange spots), so that they can keep their forward line of Mooney and J-Pod? Either way you look at it, I'm confident in PJ's ability to play that 2nd ruck against other Club's potential 2nd rucks. You need to really think about a side like Geelong's structure in 2011 (not what we have already seen), to work out that PJ may just be that saviour. I believe Green will play more forward again in 2011, and he should expect 40+ goals out of himself again. Jurrah, well, if he can play 22 games, he has to be a realistic chance of kicking 40+ himself. Add the odd cameo from Petterd, Sylvia and Watts, and all of a sudden, the need for PJ to win games off his own boot for us is reduced significantly. If we can have Green, Jurrah and someone else all kick over 30 goals this season, as well as 3 or 4 guys kicking more than 20 goals, we WILL win more games than we lose. Sorry for the long-winded post, my opinion of PJ is neutral, 2011 will see him sink or swim. I just think he is a far better option than trying to find that player from the VFL.

It's possible that we will get someone better that Fetta, but I'm not as confident they will be high quality after pick 40. There's always around the 1 quality player for the couple of decades past that, and let's face it, Melbourne has a better track record than most of finding that player. We often do better with our spec picks rather than our top 20 ones (although we have done alright over the past couple of years)!

I didn't say his playing ability wasn't of a high standard, I just lost respect for him as a player after the incident. I know that's harsh, but that's how my twisted mind works sometimes! Hang me for it! Grinter was tough and brutal, I still can't use his name in the Thug category. Maybe I'm a bit biased.