Akum

Casey in that last quarter are like the Dees under Neeld. They don't have a midfield; they just have a group of midfielders.

If Pies can't win this with the amount of maggot generosity they're getting ...

Ok, that's a deal.

So you're arguing that the Saints have made a selection mistake that might cost them the game?

On the one hand, good! If his currency's going down, all the better for us. On the other hand, bad! If he's having surgery now rather than postponing it, either his knee's even worse than it was, or he's decided to stay.

This. Even for the first couple of "Roos years", in the pre-season it was expected that he'd play as a sort of midfield-distributor in 2014, and as a wingman in 2015. So he spent those pre-seasons working on his speed & endurance and streamlining his body. So that when he got inevitably shifted to fill a gap in the forward line at some stage of the season, he got easily brushed aside. But for the 2016 pre-season, it was anticipated that he would be played as a tall forward. Therefore, FINALLY, he spent the pre-season bulking up, working on his core strength, and now he's no longer brushed aside. In addition, he has now finally matured physically, so that he is able to bulk up. There's no way that 2014 and 2015 were wasted - the extra skills & nous he picked up along the line have really helped his all-round game in 2016. Moving Jack back to defence when the other team gets a run-on seems to stop it more often than not these days. As an earlier poster suggested, he's better now for having been thrown around in different positions in the past. But it's only this year that he has the physical strength to be a contested ball winner, on the ground & in the air.

I think it's as simple as he's finally grown into his body. Has a much stronger core now, and much stronger in the contest.

Nah, just says a whole lot more about you than it says about Grimes. Not picking teams according to form is a great idea ... "If his cards really are marked (which I fear they may be), at least it did his trade value no harm." What even you could have said.

Raising the gratuitous player swipe to new "heights" ...

I get the feeling that this is a brief outline of a much longer piece that has yet to be written. And it will only be written if we get the last chapter right. He wants that last chapter as much as we all do. So we can't let 2016 become another false dawn. With that last paragraph, maybe the title of the article could be read, not as a statement, but as a personal request.

I get the feeling that one way or another we know exactly where we are with Prestia, and that it was worked out a while ago, so we just don't need to make any noise. It may be that we've said no, or it may be that we've got him in the bag. Or more likely, we've put him an offer and he'll come back to us if he gets another offer that he's prepared to consider. He seems to be playing as if the matter's resolved, one way or another. Whatever has been decided, we have no need to play this out in the media. So we won't hear anything from the club until the denouement.

Pretty much answers the "How low can you go?" question. This thread so far deserves an early lock.

Classy post

Totally agree with this post. Except that we actually do have a Selwood, Kennedy, Fyfe or Hodge. His name is Jack Viney but he's doing incredibly well just to play with a busted hand. Yesterday would have been the sort of game where he would have loved to stamp himself as the dominant clearance player on the ground. I can't remember the last game Viney had where he didn't get a single centre clearance. He's certainly not playing badly at all, but his injury prevents him being able to dominate the stoppages like he has in some games this year. We got something out of using the likes of Vandenberg & Petracca as a sort of "pseudo-Viney" at various times, but nothing's as good as the real thing.

This. What really needs to be done in the second half is to knock off one or two top 8 sides. That will really set us up for 2017. In the Roos years we've really only beaten teams below us or around about us (well, maybe Geelong last year were an exception, but let's face it, they weren't nearly as good at the time as they are now). Plus a few honourable losses to some top teams along the way. If all we do this year is beat teams below us or around about us, with a few honourable losses to top teams, that's scarcely an improvement. To nail the improvement for this year, we really need one or two big scalps, which will need everyone to click on the same day.

At a guess, I'd say: He's definitely more physically mature this year - finally. This is the first year he's been played in the same position every game so far. He's developing a great understanding with Hogan in particular. The best passes both of them receive are from each other, and at times they seem to be able to anticipate where the other one is likely to be leading before they actually look. And they're learning to keep out of each other's space (other forwards less so) and even to create space for the other to run into. Our ball movement into the forward line this year is definitely faster, and our press to keep it in there for successive minutes is definitely better. We still lose a lot on that final kick into the f50, and our mids need to learn the concept of "kicking to advantage", but overall the delivery to the forward line has improved. What I'd like him to do now is to feel free to have a crack at goal whenever he gets the ball in the f50, even if he's in a tight situation. There were about 3 occasions on Sunday where, instead of having a ping (like Petracca did in the first couple of minutes), he tried a dinky little pass to find someone in a better position and the chance was lost. If Watts has the ball in f50 and he's under pressure, there's more chance of a goal coming from a snap over his shoulder than from him trying a dinky little pass to look for someone in a better position in a congested space. Get in his ear Tracc!!

It's stating the obvious but it has to be stated - Trengove hasn't yet reached his physical ceiling, or anywhere near it. And it's simply premature to make judgments on his long-term outcome until he does. Remember, when his leg came out of plaster, that photo that showed how withered his calf muscles were? OK, maybe that was a year or so ago, but it would not have fully recovered to anywhere near "physical ceiling" level. I thought that both Trengove and Dawes had trouble changing direction on Sunday. In those conditions they certainly weren't the only ones, but on the slippery surface the condition of their leg muscles wouldn't be able to slow them down enough to change direction, so they weren't able to run anywhere near full pace. Same probably applies to VdB, though I didn't notice him as much. Were there any others who were "managing" ankle or calf or knee injuries? Didn't BenKen have ankle problems in the preseason? He was another one who seemed to have trouble changing direction. Again, perhaps it wasn't a good idea to take 3 or 4 players in this condition into a match on such an unstable surface. But Trengove has shown, even at this stage, that he's worth his place on the list for another year or two. It's reasonable to expect that he would continue to improve with another pre-season or two, barring further injury, until he reaches his physical ceiling. He'll only be 26, and it will probably be only then that we can be definitive about whether he's a keeper or not.

Well, I'll put it another way and say that no matter how well Grimes plays at Casey, he won't get another game. Same applies to Terlich, Dunn, and possibly Garland. Frankly, I don't agree with this, but 9 times emergency in 13 rounds with no games is a farce.

The best comparison for Trengove has always been Bartel. Never fast, but usually gets to the right places at the right times and does the right thing when he gets there. That's always been Trengove's best attribute. The thing about Bartel (and Mitchell and Watson and a number of others) is that they're rarely put in a situation where their lack of pace can be exploited. We don't seem to be that well-organized at this stage.

I thought the best we could have hoped for in the circumstances were a close loss and to have given a really good account of ourselves. The problem is, the selection mistakes (which are mistakes we've made in the recent past but haven't learned from) made it impossible for us to give a really good account of ourselves. If you lose to a top side in very trying conditions but perform well, it gives you a bit of hope. But we missed out on any chance of that because of the selection. Six-day break against a top side, I reckon should in future be 3 changes. In the wet & mud, against a top team, those three need experience and size to replace youth and not-fully-developed (or not-fully-fit-but-"managing"-an injury*) bodies. The analogy about winning a test match in Perth with a four-pronged pace attack, then expecting that because they performed well they could do the same on a slow turner, is right on the mark. Another thing - players know who loves playing in the wet & who hates it. This is the Swans FCS - anyone who doesn't like the wet is going to get smashed against the Swans. And this isn't being wise in hindsight - it was obvious to most of us that there was a huge risk of running out of legs on the last quarter. [* We have 4 I can think of who are "managing" or carrying an injury - Vandenberg, Viney, Dawes & Trengove. In the wet against the Swans, that's probably one or two too many.] Yes, Grimes for O-Mac might not have made much of a difference. But Grimes, Garland & ANB/Michie for O-Mac, Stretch and Vandenberg, while it wouldn't have bridged the 55-point gap, would have given us more of a chance.

"His card is marked" is one thing. Not being allowed a chance to redeem himself is another level altogether.

Fine. But not repeating pst mistakes would be a great place to start.

I just have one request: If we lose one game by doing something stupid, can we please not repeat it? Ever? We NEVER AGAIN field an unchanged side on a 6-day break against a top team. We NEVER AGAIN go in too tall for the conditions. We NEVER AGAIN let a loose man in defence run free all day. These things have all hamstrung us in the recent past. The really frustrating thing this season is that, although we have a much better team, off-field stupidity has too often been a factor in not allowing us to give a good account of ourselves.

Something I've always wondered ... Are there people here who believe that the player should accept the club's first offer?

Would Treloar v Viney be a better comparison? Agree about Prestia.