Nasher

i thought my sylvia critique and byron blasting were far more negative.

I didn't respond to the parts I agreed with

I'm sorry, I'm confused, I'm sure that you posted this:

So, where is the direct quote? Why are you changing your story now?

You're right in that I didn't quote you directly and I have no idea why I said that I did. Perhaps at the time I thought that I had. Brain fade? For that I apologise. However:

It's because you're completely full of shiite and you've been exposed, don't misquote me to try and make your argument look better. You accused me of something that I did not post, now once again, show me where you quoted me directly. Perhaps you should read your own posts, you've turned misquoting into an artfrom, you've got plenty of material to work with.

You're still yet to tell me what on Earth you were on about with the premiership remark, and you keep harping on about the misquote. Misquote or not my response to what you said about Jolly being a premiership was still valid. So for the third time, if you didn't mean that Jolly having a premiership to his name made him a better player, what did you mean?

You honestly don't think that there is a difference between the two statements? The fact is that a made a statement and you misquoted me to try and make your argument look stronger, and it's so obvious what you've done that it's hilarious that you're trying to defend yourself.

I'm hostile because you've misquoted me and I've exposed you?

I believe our ruck combination is one of the worst for many reasons.

Firstly, White has never been able to cope with the rule changes, he is not the same player he once was. His main weapon was his ability to jump over the opposition, he simply can't do that any more and hence he no longer gives us first use out of the centre like he used to, it just doesn't happen. In the past against teams with the ruck quality that Hawthorn has now, what was nashers description, both slow moving, fumbling giants who provide almost nothing around the ground, we barely broke even, what does that say about us then? (Their two ruckman fumbling giants got a total of 18 touches around the ground, White and Jamar got 11....)

Secondly Jamar is not up to it.

Jeff White got 29 hitouts that game. The same as Campbell. Simon Taylor is a Mark Jamar clone so they cancel each other out. Which ruckman would you prefer in your side, Robbie Campbell or Jeff White?

In round 1, Jeff got 13 hitouts to Matthew Clarke's 12 (nobody else got more than a couple). Clarke is obviously a good ruckman and has been for a long time. Jeff was also the leading hitout winner against Geelong.

The "Jeff White struggles with the centre circle" conception is a complete myth. Fact his, he's still, at the very least, breaking even in the ruck contests. He's clearly no match for Sandilands in the ruck contests but who is?

For Melbourne to win a premiership we need to have some things going for us. We don't have the best midfield, nor the best faroward or backline. To give us a chance we have to have a top ruck combination to give us first out of the centre and to help the KPP up forward and down back. We simply don't have that, and while this is what we have to play with we will not win a premiership.

Sydney won a premiership with Jolly because he was what they needed, someone to purely compete in the air, doesn't have to dominate because they have strengths and depth all over the ground, Jolly gave them that. We need much more out of our rucks because we don't have Sydney's strengths.

Improving the ball winning skills of our inside midfielders is much more important than the rucks IMO. It's pretty hard to say where we're at there because our best two insiders in McLean and Jones are out at the moment. I'm willing to bet that if they'd been in the side winning the hard ball as they do, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Against Hawthorn we broke even in the taps but couldn't clear the ball to save ourselves. What does that say?

i do agree that we need more out of our ruckman around the ground. I remember Jeff White at his absolute best though. I still believe that he is capable of delivering what we need, even if he isn't really at the moment. Even so, Jeff White in bad form is still at the very least breaking even in the hitouts.

Jamar is struggling at the moment, but there's only a small handful of second rucks who aren't.

daniel bell turns it over time and time again.

his attack on the ball is exemplary; his use of it is less than ordinary.

Sorry but that's a load of bull. His disposal in the past few seasons had been ordinary under pressure but this year it is, at the very least, at par standard. It's not first grade but it's definitely not poor. I can't help but think you're just regurgitating your previously conceived idea without watching him play objectively.

Yes, you absolutely did misquoted me and you've done it again in this post.

Misquote one - Show me where I said that playing in a premiership team makes Jolly a better player?

I know you can't produce this piece of evidence because I didn't post it.

You didn't, but by throwing in the "but I'm prepared to wager that at the end of all their careers only Jolly will have played in a premiership team", you have implied it. I ask you again, if you weren't meaning that meant he was a better player then what did you mean? I'm just trying to find a meaning to what I thought was a pointless statement. Obviously I'm not alone as Rhino came to the same conclusion.

Misquote two - I never said that we have the worst ruck combination, I said we have one of the worst, if you can't understand the difference then that's your problem.

So to summarise that's twice you've misquoted me - do you actually want to debate the issue or would you prefer to continue with whatever the little voices in your head are saying?

Hostile little bugger aren't we?

Bell would be in the top 5 of our B+F at the moment. I just can't see how you've arrived at the conclusions you have.

Well I completely disagree with the "sack Daniher" crowd but at the same time I can't see the point in extending his contract at this point either.

IMO the board have this one right. Analyse the situation at the end of the year (or at least closer to it than we are now).

Ricky P, what a debut.

That's all I have to say.

I didn't say that it did make him a superior player so please don't misquote me.

The facts remain that we now have one of the worst ruck combinations going around and thjere are two decent performing ruckman playing for other clubs that we once had on our list.

I didn't misquote you. I quoted you directly. If you weren't saying that playing in a premiership made him a better player then why did you make the point at all?

I also don't think have the worst ruck combination going around. I'd put us somewhere in the middle. Let's take a look at some:

Adelaide: Their #1 is Hudson who is a quality player. Who else do they have? Some "combination".

Brisbane: The Lions have always managed to maintain a pretty solid list of rucks. They'd easily beat us.

Carlton: Ackland and Cameron Cloke. I'm quaking in my boots there.

Collingwood: Their best is Fraser but he's a #1 pick. He's not as good as Jeff White was in his prime. Beyond that Richards is so-so and Bryan is, well...

Essendon: Hille and Laycock together would stack up better than what he have.

Freo: Sandilands is a good ruckman, but beyond that they've got little. Longmuir can't get on the park at the moment.

Geelong: I don't even know who their ruckmen are. King ? Ottens?

Hawks: Robert Campbell and Simon Taylor are both slow moving, fumbling giants who provide almost nothing around the ground. We've got one Mark Jamar, they've got two of them.

North: Their ruck combination is Hale and McIntosh. Both first round draft picks. Yes they're a good combo, and so they bloody should be for the price they paid.

St Kilda: Rix, Brooks, Gardiner, Kozi... Oooooooh. Scary.

Swans: Everitt is a top class ruckman. Jolly is a good second ruck. They're on top of us.

West Coast: Cox is obviously the best in the business and Seaby IMO has what it takes to be a #1 at other clubs. Clearly they're better than us.

Bulldogs: Again Darcy is classy but they've got very little depth beyond that. Minson's form radically fluctuates and Peter Street has demonstrated time and time again that despite being the tallest man on Earth, can't play footy.

Tiges: Simmonds is a good player, but as good as Jeff White at his best? I don't think so. Good ruckman don't want to play as #2 rucks and Simmonds is a good example of that. Trent Knobel is a journeyman footballer who offers nothing other than taps.

Port: Lade and Brogan are good players.

So to summarise I'd say Brisbane, North, West Coast, Sydney, Port and maybe Adelaide have ruck divisions that are undoubtedly stronger than ours. That's six clubs. I don't think we're any worse off than any of the other nine clubs I mentioned. We're certainly not the worst.

but I'm prepared to wager that at the end of all their careers only Jolly will have played in a premiership team.

Playing in a premiership team does not automatically make you a superior player. There have been some dead set duds who have a premiership medal in their cabinet. Conversely there have been some brilliant players whose cabinets are bare.

Playing in a premiership is completely irrelevant to the argument.

Pathetic and inept performances from the president (thinks Daniher should coach to 2016)

In all honesty none of us have any idea what Gardner or the board are saying behind closed doors. Part of his job as President is to provide a united front, and as long as Neale's in the position of Senior Coach, on the outside he'll always (appear to) have the support of the board.

Do you really think Paul's going to turn around and say "I reckon Neale's doing a shit job and I doubt he'll be the coach in 2008" ?

I wasn't arguing that Ash. It was just a question with no hidden meanings.

Who's Deeboy on there? Jeez I get embarrassed when I see Dees supporters crop up on opposition sites trying to "defend our honour". Bah. So childish.

Anyway, I personally take very little notice of what opposition supporters like those guys over there have to say. Didn't read a single post in that thread that didn't show the intellect of a baboon.

From what I've seen in his first 5 games, I would say that Alwyns tackling is very effective.

Has he laid a front-on tackle yet?

It's a tough ask. Our best two ball winners in Jones and McLean are out. There will be a lot of pressure on Junior and Moloney (if he plays) to win the contested ball.

Our backline looks much stronger with Rivers back. Garland in this side opens up the possibility for Miller going back should the other options not work out. That leaves a pretty inexperienced forward line though, as we'll have Garland, Dunn and the resting Jamar holding fort in the forward line. We'll also have PJ as an option at either end, though based on recent weeks I'd much prefer him back as he's shown very little as a forward.

Really I think any team's beatable. I think it unlikely that we will beat Sydney this week but I'm really excited about the contest none the less.

I'm absolutely stoked with these selections.

Ward and Bizzell out speaks volumes.

I also agree with Fan, Jaded et al about Wheatley. He'd definitely be playing if it wasn't for the injury and deservedly so.

Personally I reckon these "huge loss to the game" remarks are a little over the top. I reckon he's one of the most overrated players in the competition. A very good player no doubt, but not the superstar people make out.

Backmen -- especially full backs -- always look good when the midfield is firing and bad when it isn't. Carroll is no different.

was 426 in that draft as well?

Smith was in the next draft I believe. First rounder?

We also took Miller at 55 in 2001. Doesn't come close to making up for the stinkers in the early rounds, but represented pretty good value I think.

Isn't it interesting that in your top 10 (which I don't disagree with), only 6 clubs are represented. I thought this competition was "equal".

Well said YM......

Its not necessarily a case of how many missing, but a case of who is actually missing.

Exactly. I'm sure an indefinite injury to Nick Gill really hurts their premiership aspirations.

One ray of sunshine on what's been an otherwise very drab start to the season.

Anyone else get sick of seeing "Neale was out-coached" week after week?

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other as to whether Neale is being "outcoached" or not, but gee these threads are getting repetitive.

QC, injuries or not, I imagine Neale's skating on incredibly thin ice right now. I reckon he's in trouble.

One positive is that Richmond haven't won yet either, so I can still SMS my Tiges supporting brother saying "when do the Dees play your mob? We really need a win..."

A bidding system completely defeats the purpose of the F/S rule. The whole purpose of it is to allow kids to play at the same footy clubs their dads did. If a club gets outbid for a player then the end goal of the F/S rule isn't met, and, potentially, some lucky club pays less than market value for superstar kid. In my mind that's even less fair than the present F/S rule.

Edit: I do like that solution proposed by the guy from BF though.

I also think the FS club get screwed as they have to nominate a player for FS and then the other Clubs have the opportunity to trump them.

Presumably the idea is that if they get trumped they get another opportunity to up their bid.