titan_uranus

Just saying...what, exactly? The same Brisbane who lost to Gold Coast a fortnight ago by 11 goals? Which is, of course, the same Gold Coast who lost to us? And St Kilda (who lost to Carlton)? Demonland at its finest. Three weeks ago we had threads on here about us making the finals. Now it's about the wooden spoon. No middle ground. Only extremes. A more reasoned, balanced view would be that young/inexperienced/poor sides have their ups and downs. Brisbane has shown both. And St Kilda. And the Dogs. Even the Gold Coast. And, if you can remember that first month, so have we. Remember, we comprehensively beat Richmond and Gold Coast, we beat GWS for a half (they're 5-2 and have beaten Hawthorn) and we matched it with Adelaide for most of the game (also 5-2). We haven't had any respite in our fixture except for GC and Richmond, and funnily enough we dominated them both. Just like we were never as good as some said we were after Richmond, we're not as bad as we some are saying we are now.

Actually, we regularly do. Especially when the ball is in the defensive half of the ground. We regularly push our numbers up into the contest. It congests the defensive 50 which means if we do get the clearance we are pressured and we panic and we rush the kick, which of course ends up being marked by the opposition's back six, who just sit back behind the play and wait. One of the critical things Roos has to work on is stopping this from happening. If he's organising it, he should stop. If he's not, he needs to fix it, because if we keep playing with numbers too far back behind the ball our transitions from the backline to the forward line just aren't going to come together.

Scapegoat is an absolutely appropriate term for what we as a supporter base do to some players. The key issue with this side has been, and continues to be, that our senior players aren't very good and don't want to put in the hard work that is required. The result is that we are not able to develop young talent because they are being asked to do too much and expected to do more. We are continually let down by Howe, Dunn, Jamar, Spencer, Garland, Lumumba, Vince, Dawes, and, of course, our other senior players before them (Moloney, Sylvia, Frawley, Davey, etc.), but our response is too often to spew vitriol at the kids who are trying to get a foothold in AFL football but can't because they have no support. Some players at other clubs are capable of making it without support, that is true, but it is not the norm and nor should it be. Our disgust with this club should extend to our 'leaders' and 'coaches' of the last 8 years. The fact we have had repeated high quality juniors come to this club, each rated by analysts pre-draft (I'm not talking about Cook or Gysberts here), but continually failed to turn into A-grade players, is a clear result of this. But we continually focus on the kids and let the established players slide.

It's not just the clearances, though they tell an important story. A lot of our clearances are quick, rushed kicks which don't have any purpose. A lot of other side's clearances are a chain of handballs opening up a runner in space or a handpass out the back to a player who is able to set up a pinpoint kick with purpose to a leading forward. Our mids last year couldn't get a clearance, at least now they can, but we don't spread, we're too slow, and as a result we don't exert any dominance from the majority of them.

On ANZAC day St Kilda lost to Carlton. The following week the Dogs beat Sydney. Do you think St Kilda fans looked at their game against the Dogs the next week and thought they had a chance? I'm not saying we're better than them, or even that we're going to win, but statements like 'we are no chance' or the game is 'unwinnable' aren't just unhelpful, they're wrong.

Or it could be the other way around. McCartney laid a lot of the ground work for their list. He identified talent, brought it in, but then was a great development coach and brought the best out of previously nothing-players. The difference was that he couldn't spark the list enough to get them moving and scoring and the change to Beveridge has done just that. But this is McCartney's list and Beveridge has simply tweaked it to reap the rewards.

IMO Pedersen is actually an example of good depth on our list. If we're in form and without many injuries I'm not sure he's best 22, but he's versatile (I still think his best football is as a rebounding defender, but he can play key forward as well as in the ruck) and has improved since he started with us. This is the kind of player you call 'depth'. Not some of the other players on our list.

Unwinnable? Have you forgotten that they lost to St Kilda last week? They were so bad that the Saints were able to beat them by 10 goals in a single half of football. Yes, they're a promising young side, but like any promising young side they're going to have ups and downs. They showed last week that if you play well, they are eminently beatable.

Classic Demonland thread. And not in a good way.

Our losses have been to teams numbered 1, 3, 4 5 and 6. Next week we play 8. Then 10. Then 7. It might have looked easy last year, but we've actually copped a hellishly difficult draw on 2015 form.

Actually, we were the only side this year to win all four first quarters in the first month. Our first quarters were, until the horror three game stretch, one of the highlights of the season. Even in the two losses to the now 5-2 Giants and Crows, we jumped both of them by hitting them hard early. Nice try.

Wait, I thought it was all Roos' fault? At his best he takes repeated intercept marks, cutting off opposition inside 50s, and he provides strong rebound from the half-back flank. When he cares about playing, and he gets on his bike, he can break the lines through the middle, and while his goalkicking is crap, his field kicking is good and he can hit a target moving forward. His best is valuable, but he doesn't really care much about producing it at the moment.

To be honest, I thought Grimes showed some improvement since his last game. He looked to take the game on a lot more and didn't resort to his usual first instinct which is to look backwards and sideways. Howe at his best is really important to this club, but unfortunately at his worst he is an embarrassing, disinterested, selfish bastard. He's twice as bad as Frawley was last year. I feel sick thinking that Spencer has been on our list since 2009. That makes this the seventh year we've been working on him. The result is just so sad. He isn't a footballer and quite obviously won't ever be one. Lumumba and Dunn are in a tight contest for most disappointing of the year so far.

6 - Pedersen 5 - Garlett 4 - McDonald 3 - Grimes 2 - N Jones 1 - Cross Grimes, Jones and Cross only get votes because they at least put in an AFL-standard effort. Howe, Dunn, Lumumba and Tyson should be ashamed of themselves.

I saw a loss coming. I saw a big loss coming. But I didn't see that coming. The skill errors hurt us early but the complete falling apart of the entire side (except McDonald, Pedersen and Garlett) was marked, and disgraceful. Tyson's fourth quarter indicated to me that he isn't injured. Which makes his first three quarters, and his whole start to the year really, awful. Dunn has lost all the gains he made last year, Vince isn't impacting games anywhere near as much as he is capable of, Lumumba at least tries to take the game on when he gets it but just isn't getting involved, and Howe is embarrassing. These are the players that, with a list like ours, we simply cannot afford to have down on output. When they're up and about we are going to be able to play good, competitive football, and we'll be able to carry Bail, M Jones, Spencer, Stretch, Grimes and Toumpas and let them develop properly. But when they play lazy, disinterested, selfish, me-first, weak, soft, stupid football, we will get beaten by pretty much every other club. As for Roos, today's performance suggests he is failing in what has to be one of his key indicators, which is getting the senior, core players to become consistent good footballers. Not that there's a lot to be done against Hawthorn, but his matchday coaching leaves plenty to be desired (he brought in the loose man in defence in the first quarter. I mean, seriously). There's a lot of hyperbolic rubbish being flung around about him, and the simple fact is that the terrible jobs done during the Bailey and Neeld eras set this club back a long, long way, but if we aren't capable of at least putting the 100-point losses behind us, then Roos is not doing as well as he should be.

Tyson, Lumumba, Dunn, Howe, Garland. This is why we are no good. Our better players once again disappearing. They're all senior players (bar Tyson) and we simply don't have the list to compete when they're not in it. People bagging Dawes have no idea what's going on out there. He is one of the few senior players chasing, harrassing and leading. The problem is the ineptitude we display off half back and through the middle.

For the first 10 minutes we were even or better in general play. Really good intensity, clearances were in our favour, and we got some space forward. But our skill errors undo our hard work and it kills our confidence. Bail's kick across goal was embarrassing. Our set up when the ball is in their forward line is terrible, too.

Grimes and Michie were stiff to have been dropped in the first place, Bail and M Jones provide the run we've been lacking, and the outs were probably the clear bottom 4 in terms of impact vs Sydney. I'm not fussed much. We've taken out the bottom 4 from last week, and even though I suspect the four ins won't do much, that's not where this game is going to be won for us. If we're to put in a decent show, it's going to come from improved performances from N Jones, Tyson, Vince, Lumumba, Dawes, Howe, Dunn, Garland etc. If our core are at their best, who knows, but I know for sure that if they're all down on input, then M Jones, Bail, Michie and Grimes could have the games of their lives, we're not going to be close when the final siren sounds.

It's been said I think, but not properly considered by most of us - the four teams who've beaten us are currently four of the top five teams on the ladder. Now, obviously PA and Hawthorn are better than their ladder positions show, but the point is that we are losing to sides who are showing early season glimpses of finals football. When we've played lesser sides, we've dominated and won both times. I think this has to be kept in mind for a bit of perspective. Doesn't make last night any less deplorable, but should remind us that it isn't as grim as it may first seem.

Spencer stays because neither Jamar nor Gawn did enough to warrant a call up. Spencer has to lift though. JKH, Newton, Howe and Pedersen are my shortlist for being dropped. Garland is close to that list. Not yet sure which ones will end up at Casey though. Jetta and Viney should hopefully return which is an immediate improvement.

Agree re: Toumpas. There are much bigger issues and a stack of worse players than Toumpas tonight. Also agree re: Dunn, although I thought he was OK tonight. He's nowhere near his 2014 form and it hurts us badly as he gave us good drive from the backline last year.

Not sure 'first game back' is relevant - he's not coming back from injury, he's been fit all year and in the seconds for a reason. I'll agree that he deserves more than one game, no point in just giving him the one, but there was absolutely nothing in his game today to suggest he has improved at all. Same mistakes as every game he's played for the last however many years he's been on our list.

It's not athleticism that's the problem, IMO, it's the complete opposite. It's football smarts. Spencer's an athlete (he's really developed his body well) but he has no idea how to play football. He's just generally useless around the ground. Every time he takes a mark or gets a free he immediately turns around to face the wrong way and looks for a handpass. Hallmark of good ruckmen these days is (amongst other things) that they are capable of getting involved in the play. Spencer is not. That is one crucial reason why he just isn't good enough. He's not a footballer, he's an athlete.

Another week where our midfield is just so far behind the opposition, another week where our movement from the backline to the forwardline was appalling. Not a coincidence. It's certain to happen again next week too. We continue to do about as well as we can defending, we continue to have stand out performances in the back half (McDonald has won his position, what, 5 times out of 6? 6 even? Salem tonight was also a highlight) but we cannot win games of football without being able to get the ball from the back half to the forward half, and we can't do that with substandard midfielders. Not at all actually - we all know how bad our midfield is, part of that has to be because we don't have a decent ruckman. Spencer was terrible tonight, the sad thing is that this was the result of his 'banging down the door' at VFL level. Wasn't like we picked him out of the blue or anything. He just isn't a footballer. Sadder than that is the fact that Gawn is supposedly worse than he is.

Woeful first half. Terrible ball movement, unbelievable skill errors. We've had worse effort levels but where is the confidence and aggression we showed against Richmond? It's completely disappeared. Spencer deserves more than one game...but...his first half was scarily bad. No improvement. Directly caused two of Tippett's goals in the only period play where we were relatively even. Every mark or free kick he waits for a runner to handball he telegraphs his need to handpass. Not impressed. Salem, McDonald, Dunn, Brayshaw are soing well. That's about it. Embarrassed by some of the others.