deanox

where did that come from?

i think sandy asked for those sunday games for some reason, but i cant quite remember why. could be wrong. it could be related to the mfc having a pile of sunday games, allowing the teams to play at the same time...

i think the point is that you need to get em young to teach em the game. you need to draft them at 17-18 so they can spend 2 years learning about afl before they are ready. at that age they are still hopeful of professional sport in america. say they don't get drafted and we snare em at 20-21, its 2 years before they are good enough and then they are 22-23. and there is still no guarantee. we can pick up an aussie at 17 and have a fair idea within 3 years...

i was making the point that you cannot argue that it happens often as an excuse for his behaviour. i was also arguing that just because you dont read about it doesnt make it serious. claiming that it was just a typical saturday night is fine. but if thats a typical saturday night for voss i don't think he'd make a very good coach. most people dont go out and get in a fight on a typical saturday night. and most people who have been punched outside a nightclub would probably argue that it caused them some serious angst.

regarding neitz i always said that he would've been one of the best CHB's ever had he stayed there. but had he stayed there he probably wouldnt be around now (not in that capacity anyway). what would have made a difference to the mfc was a fit lyon at FF and schwartz at CHF allowing neitz to stay CHB. had these players stayed injury free i would go he if we didnt win a flag. alas it wasnt to be.

might be easier in graphical form. plotted goals and scoring shots versus time...

thats exactly why i found these stats, because i was looking to find if there was a significant stage of his career where he swapped, that was obvious in the stats. here is the full table thanks to http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players...avid_Neitz.html Year No. Games Kicks Marks H.Balls Disp Goals Bhd H.O. Tack FrF FrA 1993 38 20 161 94 96 257 17 15 10 12 1994 9 24 189 81 123 312 2 2 9 22 1995 9 22 232 140 67 299 33 25 50 18 1996 9 22 181 110 66 247 56 26 27 22 1997 9 17 129 77 34 163 30 22 17 9 1998 9 14 115 57 42 157 33 21 39 14 11 17 1999 9 18 153 92 51 204 46 21 35 17 13 28 2000 9 21 201 126 67 268 24 19 21 23 16 16 2001 9 22 206 132 61 267 38 34 14 21 18 27 2002 9 24 178 132 50 228 82 38 31 23 13 25 2003 9 22 147 101 38 185 65 28 40 22 19 36 2004 9 21 155 99 32 187 69 47 11 19 15 18 2005 9 18 118 67 27 145 39 23 1 20 10 10 2006 9 21 163 106 41 204 68 26 3 16 10 20 2007 9 9 59 42 17 76 18 9 1 8 Totals 295 2387 1456 812 3199 620 356 308 258 126 205 High 25 16 10 31 9 7 11 5 4 5

found this and thought it interesting enough to share. hope some of you agree... players games and goals for the mfc in season 2000. the wiz miles in front (almost double robbo) with 76. stephen powell kicking more goals than either david schwartz or david neitz. and right down the bottom, matthew collins sneaking in for a goal (he also scored one in 2001 for a career total of 2 goals). Rank Name Games Total 1 Jeff Farmer 23 76 2 Russell Robertson 25 44 3 Adem Yze 25 37 4 Stephen Powell 25 32 5 David Schwarz 25 31 6 Brad Green 20 28 7 David Neitz 21 24 8 Cameron Bruce 19 22 9 Shane Woewodin 25 20 10 Jeff White 24 16 11 Travis Johnstone 14 15 11 Andrew Leoncelli 24 15 13 Anthony McDonald 25 11 14 Brent Grgic 22 9 15 Guy Rigoni 25 8 16 James McDonald 17 7 16 Peter Walsh 24 7 18 Paul Wheatley 12 4 18 Ben Beams 7 4 20 Troy Simmonds 22 3 21 Steven Febey 21 2 22 Matthew Collins 14 1

might be my lack of legal training probably used the wrong term.

a matter of minutes?????? this is a man who you advocate lead our team and make rationale decisions under the most strenuous pressure situations (in the coaches box) and you suggest that he needs more than minutes to make a decision not to hit someone?? the fact that he followed the other man out of the club shows that his head wasnt on straight and that he didnt respond to the pressure situation well. how does he react under pressure on match day? does he take a few minutes to make a move? will you be happy with him taking that long to make a high pressure decision? and this decision should have been clear cut. to hit a man, or not. and it is clear that this is assault, not defence. based on that statement we should afford certain st kilda players our highest respect, even after alleged events of the past few years. because women claim to be raped every day of the week, its just a typical saturday night, alcohol fuelled decision, and because we dont hear about it when it happens to your best friend or some random woman in richmond it shouldnt matter when an afl player is involved. its a very ignorant argument you're making jaded. you cannot claim that because it happens it should happen. which people are getting in pub fights? local footballers? tradies? im not having a go at either of those groups, but my point is it is not your typical air traffic controller, afl coach or executive CEO getting into fights. if you want the big jobs you need to be better than that. you need to hold your cool in pressure situations. and maybe you should rethink your public drinking habits.

you're right rhino, i may not have made myself clear. i was trying to differentiate between an adrenaline moment "your mate just got attacked and you leap to his defence" and the premeditated "your mate just got attacked, so you will find the guy later and hit him to even it up". i am not as concerned with the first as i am with the second. it appears that voss had reasonable time, even if it was just 10 seconds, to think about what happened, realise that he, and party, were in no more danger, and been big enough to continute to enjoy the night. voss didnt. voss chose to pursue the man, not to talk or discuss or seek an apology, but to hit him. not good enough. i agree i shouldnt have said threatening, i was talking about physically defending yourself with a resonable amount of force, from a physical attack. if it was verbal threats the smart thing to do is to move away or inform the management. im sure footy players are a draw card for these places, so they would want to stop patrons bugging them...

their approaches would be very similar the week after ND is sacked i would assume. riley didnt exactly have time to create and implement a whole new coaching method and team plan did he? and he didnt have many players to pick from so he wasnt exactly able to chop and change...

jaded, i think there is a major difference between reacting to an incident immediately, or later on. voss followed the bloke outside afterwards and punched him, away from the scene after the issue has been calmed down. if the ball was thrown and voss threw the punch straight away i wouldnt have an issue. it is self defence to hit someone who is threatening you, but it is not self defence to follow someone after an incident and attack them. if we have any lawyers (or queen councils) maybe we could get a legal definition.

He is not a proven AFL ruckman. He is a proven VFL ruckman who has played games at AFL level. Big difference. Across his career he averages 9 hit outs and 4.6 disposals around the ground. This supports the observations that he is a decent tap ruckman who struggles around the ground. He has done nothing to warrant a spot in the last 2 years except being tall. PJ has come ahead of him in leaps and bounds. Neaves is not ahead of him yet because he is 5 years behind in development. I think the excitment about Neaves is because he is showing the potential to be a much better all round player. The reason Simmonds and Jolly left have been discussed on this board frequently. They were not 'disposed of'. They chose to leave to chase glory and white was a better ruckman, and in many opinions still is. Jamar hasn't developed into the ruckman that either Simmonds or Jolly is and there is daylight between him and Jeff White.

exactly right. the best thing he could be doing to break a tag and find form is to crumb off the forwards. he only needs to slip through one gap to kick a goal which could fire up the day. when he is struggling it would be worth leaving him at the foot of the tall forwards and then dragging him into the centre for one centre bounce before taking him back forward, just to shake up the opposition line up. see if the tagger follows or not. it might be a win for us for the opposition small backman to be tagging in the centre.

ok let it slip. which one of you is related to colin garland? lol :D

i cant question you alan, i was born in 86. what did people say about matthews coaching then? or was 'image' not as important as it is now? the behaviour of players should have tightened up a bit you would think.

exactly. i think there is a difference. while i am not excusing matthews for cowardly behind the play assaults, and i am not claiming that these acts are examples of footy 'toughness', i think there is a difference between some one who is undisciplined and aggressive on the field to someone who hits someone at a night club, unprovoked. voss needs a couple of years to cool off so he is not buddy buddy with current players still. how old was matthews when he first coached? and how long had he been out of the game for?

i think that matthews age when he became a coach should be noted. he wasnt one year out of the game and still punching people in night clubs and on the turps with other current players was he?

regarding voss: if the evidences suggests this is more than a one off then yes. but if he got sucked in this easily it suggests to me that maybe he is not yet mature enough to hold a senior coaching position.

voss never thought the footage would get out, or didnt realise there was any, imo. voss walked out of a club and attacked a person standing there without warning. there may have been an altercation earlier but not at this time. voss's actions weren't a reaction or a self defence, they were premeditated and purposeful. there is a problem with voss's situation, and it is that he is claiming he is ready to step straight into a head coaching job. he is claiming that he is good enough, that he is responsible enough, that he is wise enough to be the leader, and the boss effectively of a group of 40 men at whatever club he goes too. he needs to be able to lead by example. he may be a great leader. he may have all the attributes of a great coach. but to lead a group at the highest level you need to be above this. he is still a young bloke, one of the guys. i think part of the benefit that comes with an apprenticeship as an assistant coach is the coach has a chance to mature into his own man, and you learn how to assume the role of an authority figure. if voss is socialising with other footballers still he hasnt transcended this level yet and i therefore have questions on his suitability for the job. might be a great coach, might struggle to win respect and impart appropriate discipline if he socialises at the same places the players do.

any reason, jarka, why you did not respond to my post?

jarka, im finding it hard to follow all of the arguments in here. could you do me a favour and write out a post and specify what exactly it is you are saying? is it that we've failed to develop key forwards? that seems to be the crux of your argument. and im interested to know why you think we've failed. poor recruiting would be high on my list with rogers, molan and smith, but then injury has also an issue. do you think we should have bought a player? or maybe tried to trade with one of our ruckmen? you say the last 10 years has been a failure, and yes in terms of premiership success it has been, but in that case the last 10 years have been a failure for more than half of the competition, at least 10 teams, who havnt won a flag in that time. again i ask what factors do you think are the reasons for our failure. i point strongly towards a massive rebuilding phase since 2000 which has been thwarted by a combination of the draft pick penalties and by injuries - in particular the OP curse and the horrible luck a couple of young kpp had (smith and molan). some good fortune with those two players would seem to counter all your arguments thus far. do you think we are 2 players short of being a premiership contender? i dont think thats a bad argument. perhaps you could grant me one post outlining what you have been trying to argue in this thread, as a summary, and another post with the answers to the above questions. it might be worth keeping in mind that this thread was about newton, so a lot of posters in here (me included) directed our questions and discussions around the development of juice to date.

jarka do you not agree that we have been trying to develop tall forward targets with the drafting of Miller, Molan, Breese, Rogers and Smith in the past decade? were schwartz and lyons careers not cut a little short by injury? you cannot say our drafting and development of ruckmen has been anything short of phenomenal. with simmonds and jolly at other clubs and white rucking for us we have donw a fantastic job over the years. white was a better ruck than both simmonds and jolly at the time they were traded. these other players wanted to leave to be a first ruck. our problem has been succession - right player, wrong time. and perhaps the attitudes of these other players who couldnt wait to leave. i think the stats of newtons performance demonstrate why it took so long for newton to be played. he did nothing year 1 and was injured. last year he dominated in the sandy reserve but couldnt buy a goal in the seniors. it wasnt until round 4 this year that he kicked a bag for sandy and he made his debut for the mfc 8 weeks after he kicked his first haul for the sandy seniors. 2 months of good footy, is all he has played including 3 games of 5 goals or more. after kicking multiple goals for sandy for the first time, he was forced to play 6 more games for them before he got a run at melbourne. he has only been named in the sandringham best 3 times this year. do you think he should have been promoted on the back of one week? or do you admit that the mfc might have done the right thing and make sure he was ready to give him a run...?

that quote in your signature wasnt brock mclean... a quick google search will reveal that it has been attributed to shaq, chris masoe and george bush just in the first couple of pages...i first heard it attributed to shaq about 3 years ago...