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Sense making on our 'brand'. I just came to a realisation around 15 minutes ago. I feel as though this year is the fruition of years of research from Goodwin whereby has has drawn from other sports around the world and made a mix that works well, whilst combining elements that are relevant to the uniqueness of AFL. In this thread there have been plenty of links to soccer (mostly EPL as a reference point) and in particular Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool system. I want to revisit the notion of Gengenpressing as I believe this is a core tenant of how we play. Thus, it is of no coincidence that Darren Burgess was recruited in the last three years to help facilitate this style. But I want to be clear - Darren is not the reason that we play this way (he is one of the reasons we now can). The move to play this way began before Darren was hired and is evidenced by Goodwin's experimentation of Diamond Defence's, which in turn alludes to his deep tactical awareness and his creativity in setting up a system that can sustain success. So a revision on what Gengenpressing is Gegenpressing, which is German for 'counter pressing', is a tactical philosophy that has been popularised by Jurgen Klopp's Borussia Dortmund and Liverpool teams. The essence of the philosophy is not only that teams press their opponents, but that they do so with particular focus and zeal when the ball is in the opposition territory; in effect, countering the counter-attack. It requires the forward line to commit to a lot of running as they are instructed to rapidly close down opposition defenders in order to force an error when an attempt is made to play the ball out from the back. Klopp explained: "Gegenpressing lets you win back the ball nearer to the goal. It's only one pass away from a really good opportunity. No playmaker in the world can be as good as a good gegenpressing situation, and that's why it's so important." The intense pressing game is, naturally, stuctured insofar as it involves the targeting of weak links in the defence - those least adept on the ball, for instance - and it involves careful calculation of risk. So, while it is important in gegenpressing to maintain a high level of pressing throughout the game, players must be able to evaluate when to fall back into a defensive position in order to conserve energy. It simply cannot function if a team is completely exhausted or prone to injury. However, it is not just the forward line who play their part in the gegenpressing system. The entire team must be correctly positioned in order to support the press from the front by closing down any potential passing options for the opponent who has the ball. Part of the thinking behind this unitary pressing is that it allows the team that presses greater options in the counter-attack which arises from the counter-press. So to me this makes perfect sense to link it back to how we are now operating at centre clearences AS WELL as the evidence of where we sit on capitalising on turnovers. Remembering that clearances are only one part of the story – what really matters is what happens after them, and whether a team can convert their ability to win the ball into points on the scoreboard. On this, our defence is clearly rock solid, from an overall points conceded perspective as well as being first (a record?) at % of scores per inside 50. Finally, we sit first on capitalising on turnovers - or point's difference from turnovers. I'm advocating adopting the term Goodwinpressing, as language to understand some of the mechanics of what our system does, and how it allows us to play and capitalise the way we do. I look forward to David King using this at some stage ?

Mate my 20 year membership certificate is signed by Mark Neeld. It could be worse.

The Demons skipper says training at the home ground of their VFL affiliate in Cranbourne East, which sits on the suburban fringe of Melbourne, is a factor in their brilliant form. The Demons have mixed training in recent years on Gosch’s Paddock, which sits at the eastern end of Melbourne’s sporting precinct, with Casey Fields but are now training at the latter far more frequently. “This ground might have something to do with it. Gosch’s Paddock is literally a postage stamp,” Gawn said. “Being out on a bigger ground has certainly helped us to be able to defend and obviously make the MCG a bit of a fortress again. We have won a few in a row now.” Max Gawn credits Demons MCG fortress to outer-Melbourne training base

It just fills me with pleasure.

Love it mate, but I'm going to disagree with you here. I think the Goodwinpressing was absolutely a feature of our games across 2017-2019, even early parts of 2020, but I think our defensive set up is now far closer to Clarko's cluster from yesteryear. We protect the corridor and are quick to close any switching exits. We've even started to block the 'play on' space from a standstill defensive position on the wings and flanks. When Carlton had it and looked to kick it long down the line, Kozzie would man the 15m space that the kicker would normally move into to get extra distance with the new rule. I haven't worked out yet whether this was something Kozzie was smart enough to do himself or whether it was a directive. Sidebottom did the same in the Sydney game. In Kozzie's situation, it meant that someone with pace could close down the kicker once they tried to play on, but without giving the 50m away by encroaching on the 15m zone. It's quite evident in games that we zonally mark space rather than press (Langdon and Gus are vital components here) and, sure, if an opposition player tries to break lines we're in a position to tackle and defend, but what happens mostly is that an opposition defender will look up and see a sea of Melbourne jumpers ahead. I think the instinct of a modern player is not to run and carry through that and undermine their own defensive positioning, particularly if their own disposal slingshots back at them. Instead, I think they look for a shorter option or more often a long kick up the line to a contest (and right into our hands). The Goodwinpress was far too aggressive and naturally left space out the back as the opposition could draw tacklers and utilise the space created to continue their attack. We used to see a lot of goals out the back. Carlton's first on the weekend was a very rare sight, where we all went up and it went out the back. Usually, our team plays with the ball in front of them. Petty, May and Lever all took turns at playing the goalkeeper role. May and Lever played it a little higher, but Petty was often 50m behind the play. As shown in the Sydney analysis by King. This happened again on the weekend. At one stage, Carlton dump kicked it over our initial wall and a completely free Petty marked in 30-50m of space. It was less obvious on the replay, but at the ground he was ridiculously deep. I loved it. And as King said, the deepness of this sweeper allows Lever and May to really play a more aggressive intercept game, knowing they've got cover out the back and quickness of defensive transition with the wingers helping out Hunt and Rivers to get back and cover Petty if the ball gets through May and Lever. It's a pretty impregnable set up. I think the first signs of this system started in the Collingwood game last year and were honed and really delivered in that St Kilda game. Like the Goodwinpressing, our current system still requires massive work rate to constantly shift and reposition the zone. Of course, there is definitely some pressing inside 50, but usually 3 or 4 players, not an 18 man press with mids pushing up like in Klopp's teams. We don't usually add an extra or two to stoppages anymore either. We're happy to have that extra behind ball. In some ways, it's been a monumental shift in philosophy. The boys mentioned it on the podcast last night, the ability to give up centre clearences for example and still be dominant around the ground. They mentioned Richmond and Hawthorn. I'd add Chris Scott's teams to this too. They're fine losing clearance, because they're well set up behind the ball. I think the other reason we've gone away from Klopp's aggressive style is our local game is far too quick. It's also much tougher to press exits on an AFL ground as opposed to a football pitch. This new system will get found out soon enough, but I'm hoping not within this year. It might take playing a 1v1 set up in the forward half, but even then, we're forcing teams to go against their own philosophies just to deal with our defensive set up. It'll be fascinating to see how this unfolds.

Expanding on @daisycutter Taj: He can be nominated wherever and we get a 20% discount on the 'points' he costs. So if he goes pick 17 it is about 1000 points, with a 20% discount it is 800 points which can be matched with picks 25 and 51. It doesn't matter where he is nominated, we can take him. Mac: Needs to be bid on pick 20 or lower. So lets say pick 21 (878 points - 20% discount, so 702). We would need pick say 42 and 48 to match the points. This is where it gets harder though. We would need to have 4 list spots open to be able to have 4 picks in the draft to use the points. So we then wouldnt have a pick in the draft and have 2 list spots open for SSP (like we did with Daw and Smith). We can have more rookies etc. so it is a little easier to manipulate, but you cannot stockpile picks like teams used to. If Taj got so good in the championships that he went number 1, we could go into deficit and pay the points with next years pick moving back in the draft based on the number of points we owed. In short - we can have them both as long as Taj proves he is good enough to get drafted and Mac proves he is not a top 20 player. What a weird situation to be in.

just loving watching the filth devour their own costing me a fortune in popcorn but

I've had a coin jar for many years now. Just had a quick count and it currently holds $8.35.

For some reason when I read the thread title I read it as 'Swear Jar' and thought @Demonland had implemented a new plan to recoup site costs....

Should always support the player going for the ball. Good tackles should be rewarded but not sniping as soon as a player picks up the ball.

I actually think you are both right. We definitely still press high when the ball is on our half. And often in a very tight formation, when the ball is inside our inside 50 meter arc. Which is at the heart of the Gengenpressing philosophy. That is really evident watching live, particularly when you sit behind the goals up high. It is crazy how often 36 players are within say 70 meters of the ball and contest when the ball is in our 50. I liken it to a fluid cell The goal is to trap it in our forward half - and if that fails create pressure on the exit kick, force a turnover and get a reentry. We have been brilliant at stopping teams switch, which is the go to way of breaking a press. Players like Rivers and Hunt, who are stationed on the edges of the 70 metre cell work super hard to get across and ideally force a turnover or at the least get to mark so they cant immediately move it on. At the same time other players have gut run to cover the down the line option, meaning the opposition often get stuck at their HB line. That was really evident against the Swans When we do force, what is essentially an offensive turnover, the kick back inside 50 is often a challenge because it still super crowded because of our press. This is definitely a factor in our inaccuracy this season. The last quarter against the blues was the was the perfect example. By that stage we were monstering them and our very effective Goodwinpressing meant the ball lived in our forward half. Which also meant our forward half was more often than not super congested. So the two options seem to be a short chiselling kick of the sort Langdon hit to Nibbler to set up a mark and goal. Or a kick to the pocket, where we look to mark it with our bigs, bring it ground for our smalls or force a stoppage so we can reset. All very predictable and if the opposition do win win the ball once again it is in traffic and under pressure creating another opportunity to create another turnover. And our tall forward line means max doesn't have to take stoppages deep inside our 50, allowing him to station himself just outside 50 on the perimeter of our cell. So if the opposition do win the ball they are often faced with kicking it to gawn or instead taking the riskier option of trying to switch and opening up the goal face. If i understand it properly, that all seems to be congruent with the Gengenpressing philosophy But you're right AF, we also zonally guard space. However what i would say is that that they do so still as part of a fluid cell that as you say requires massive work rate to constantly shift and reposition the zone. When the opposition do get past our forward press we do everything we can to slow their transition and flood back en masse to get to their designated spot in the zone they have to guard, as evidenced by that footage King showed (and all the pointing). As King noted, and you point out, we have a defender deep in goal keeper role to support the zone. That was Tomlinson, now Petty (thoughas you say they seemed to have mixed that up a bit against the blues, so it will interesting to see if that continues). However that player still presses high when we go forward, but on the outside of the perimeter and closet to the opposition goal (sometimes he might only go up the centre, but often further) and will run back to say 30 metres out from their goals as the ball is transitioned. That play that petty almost got caught out on was the perfect example. He got aggressive and pushed up super high and almost got caught out. Good thing he got back, but had to sprint super hard to do so. We have been utilizing key elments of this model since about half way through 2018 when we realized we were getting hurt too often on the counter. Omac was the goal keeper in that model and they stopped pressing so high, but still pressed. And we abandoned the players running off the back of the square too. I think we are actually more aggressive with that press now, but that's perhaps because our players are so much fitter and can get back when required. From round 12 that year we conceded the least points on the back of this change. And since that time have been defensively very strong. Your point about our stoppages is really god one. As you say we don't bring an extra to stoppages and often have a player, say 40 metres away, on the defensive side to intercept opposition kicks. Which is exactly what happened against the blues. So that tactic has clear elements of a zone system but is still consistent with the Gengenpressing philosophy because it supports our efforts to trap it in our forward half, particularly if the stoppage is within 60 metres of our goal. On Kickett guarding the corridor at marks we have been doing that all season. Nibbler does it often as does Spargo. Very disciplined. It is clever because it makes it harder to go the corridor and/or switch and so supports our model. It is also one reason why opposition teams don't seem to have been able to hurt us with the new stand rule.

His execution needed to improve (that patch where he had 3-4 clangers was putrid) but you also noted how many attacks he cut off when he did and didn’t get the ball? Who on our list do you suggest has suddenly worked out how to play the defensive wing position? His role has become critical to why teams cant play quick against us or switch easily.

The debate is starting with Damian Hardwick saying we should remove prior opportunity, that means any player tackled that doesn't get rid of the ball or the if the ball isn't knocked out in a tackle it is holding the ball. So who do you reward the ball winner or the tackler. To me if the ball isn't correctly disposed of, which is a kick or handball a free kick should be paid. Players shouldn't be able to just let the ball go when tackled. The bulldogs and Richmond have mastered this art, the incorrect disposal to advantage. You need to encourage players to win the ball first, if you have no prior players will wait to lay a tackle. Pay incorrect disposal and that will reward the tackler.

Oddly enough, many of the big Soccer clubs have their own crypto-currency. And to echo what others have said; crypto-currencies get people excited because once in a while the random token you bought a $100 worth of will jump by 200% and you can go tell everyone how smart and rich you are. The rest of the time it is just tick... tick... tick... down. Exciting success, boring failure. Always the key to marketing success. I'd urge people to only buy if there is a particular practical reason such as building up your polonium stash through the Darkweb or a relaxing bit of saturday evening money laundering. Although, I'd be tempted to buy a few DemonDollars for a laugh. A bit of GawnGold. PetraccaBucks? ClaytonCoin? PickettTicketts? MarketLeverage?

i don't think even a microwave would accept it

Thank God something does Old Dee, I’d almost given up hope.

Demonland is going to Adelaide.

The other part of this is CORRECT/LEGAL tackle. I need to shout this as it's so frustrating. It's ok for Hardwick to talk about back in his day, but back in his day you didn't get away with the high tackles and riding in the back in the gang tackles of today.

A dole queue of magpies? a keyboard warrior of demonlanders?

Only positive of the soft cap reduction is that there's less people being paid to figure out how to stop us!! Can't remember who said it but heard a coach or player say one of the big differences post covid is that there's a lot less time and resources for opposition analysis.

What's incredible to me is that we've won all our games, (9-0 what the hell) with plenty of improvement left. Our defence is has been rock solid throughout all games which has to be a sign that we're seriously ready to challenge. We're not flaky. The fact that we've won all games whilst simultaneously tinkering with our forward line is a luxury afforded to few. And that's probably the most exciting thing. We're in the unique position of being able to flirt a little with set-ups with the aim of being cherry ripe toward the end of the year. We're still building and we haven't played our best, only patches. It's almost dream-like. If we finish top 2 which is now a massive chance, think about how influential dees fans will be at the G. 2018 vs Geelong and Hawthorn all over again. We'll come from everywhere and the G will be rocking again. Huge chance.

Two goals without getting a kick, sign him up!

Eddie on Footy Classified tonight said " that there was no board vote in his 23 years as President." It was said answering a question about the new Pies board member, who is ineligible to vote until after the next AGM. If Eddie was serious, he has just admitted that the Pies were run without board input, or at least voting on issues. With the rules and legal ramifications on Directorships and Companies that is a staggering admission. I can't imagine any other President of an AFL football club, or any Chairman of a Company for that matter, admitting that.

Christ, this guy gets around. Holding down our defence AND undermining the CFC board. Go big Steve. In a bad year, sometimes the only thing to look forward to is on or off field drama at Collingwood. This year we have it all! AHHHHHHHHHH (sips cognac) GO DEMONS!!!

I think it’ll just be Weideman back out for Jackson. Chandler was the clear 22nd best player, however I don’t think Jackson for Chandler being a realistic exchange, it’s way too tall. In Goody’s presser today he was at pains to say the talls all knew the situation and were clear on where things stood; I read between the lines that he’s getting ready to tell one of them they’re back out. Weideman played the role Jackson would so it makes sense to me.

Gut feel is that Weideman will miss, and Jackson will come back in

it's no more dodgy than gold if you think about it A metal with no real value other than scarcity

Now that Oscar is gone, and TMac is approaching Sainthood, ANB is already beatified and St Charlie has grown wings people need to find another "dog"to kick so enter Melksham & Gus with Petty & Chandler as emergencies because they have to complain about something.

Make your own dc it is very cheap! Its the choc tops that are costing me a bit.

Don't sack Bucks yet wait till after the Queens Birthday game. Cannot remember a coach being sacked after playing Melbourne. Have we ever been a coach killer besides our own coach, been plenty of those.

I don’t think it’s uncommon. We realise what an opportunity the club now has and that enhances our anxiety and trolling of our emotion. I was better during the Carlton game as I knew we would respond and that the team’s effort is unquestionable right now. It will get easier to watch this over time as they are the real deal - but yes @old dee the club has conditioned us to expect the rug to be pulled and so we are understandably jumpy.

I have never understood all the complaints about Casey as our training ground. If it improves the team which appears to be in some what true this year then go there until the new facility gets up. Seems a no brainer to me.

It's a testament to you being a shocking judge since you said he's be sacked by Round 8.

All they need to do is start paying incorrect disposals properly. If you get tackled immediately but it comes out without a legal handpass or kick then that should be holding the ball. With or without prior. Hunt had Mathew Parks dead to rights and umpired called play on because he "attempted to kick it." Even all the players around the tackle stopped and expected a free kick to be paid. Start rewarding those then that solves a lot of issues in my opinion.

Well that's just plain stupid. That's a more sensible approach.

It's a protein shake that's provided to the players after the game. Instead of wasting them pouring on players heads, it's meant to be consumed straight after physical activity. As Petracca said last night, it's people like property stewarts who put in the time and energy in preparing this kind of stuff for the players and then having to clean up the mess afterwards. My respect for Petraccas leadership has gone through a whole new level after seeing this last night. Kudos also to Gawn for addressing this straight after the game as well.

Unsurprising. Tough times when there's nothing much to complain about.

Have no respect for someone who cheats on his wife for someone young enough to be his daughter

In my 51 years, Travis Johnstone occasionally nailed the kick in, but the rest of the time, my fingernails have suffered 80's90's00's10's20's etc, totally happy for first time ever with kick ins.

Ahhhh dunno. I've only been a 20yr member once. ? I'll be honest, the thank you "certificate" it came with went straight in the bin. Generic, and bland as hell. The pin however made my day. Small things........

Serious question Where will the big party be held if we happen to win it? I too will take all my leave and turn into a mad drunk for a month

Witnessed some real-life Royal Parade baiting at the ground yesterday. Seriously-overweight slob in a shirt & tie in the MCC decided to make TMac his bunny for the day. It didn’t end well for old mate. You wouldn’t have wanted to be 3qtr time-party-pie at the function he was attending.

I don't think we've peaked at all. Working out what is our optimal forward set-up is very much work-in-progress.

48,272

Not only that. Spargo is a regular on the team sheet. OD may have to jump ship if this keeps up for much longer.

Love this kid. Funny though, while his kicking has improved, his goal kicking goes backwards. My only knock on him previously was he seemed to be lazy when the opposition had the ball, but this is no longer the case (same with Bradshaw), he is on track to being our best mid since Tulip, possibly better (though I only saw the second half of his career). This team can be anything, backs like Salem, Lever, Hunt, May and Rivers, wings in Lingers and Gus, mids in Trac, Clarry and Viney, forwards in TMac, Brown, Weideman, ANB Spargo and Kossie, Jackson replacing one, led by Gawn, I expect the drought to break with a 50s like flood!

Trac said on 360 tonight that Gawn pulled the team up post game to call out the milk in the face of Chandler. Poor form. a small thing but good to see we are an open direct unit

Since they moved to Adelaide oval we've only lost to them there once, in 2015. We've beaten them at Adelaide Oval 4 times for an 80% win rate! Wins by 3 points (2014), 41 pts (2017), 13 pts (2018) and 51 pts (2020). WOO-HOO-HOOOOOO!!!!

Did he say whether Mrs Hardwick likes heading to Docklands?