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I'm officially starting the #PlayJackVineyforward campaign. @A F and I have been banging on this drum for 2 years and I think now is the time to pull the trigger. As everyone here knows, I'm a big Simon Goodwin fan and a big Jack Viney fan. Jack has been having a very good year in the midfield but the honest facts are that he's behind Christian Petracca and Clayton Oliver in the pecking order and he's very similar to Oliver in focus on first possession. As has been widely discussed, the shorter quarters and season is providing less scope for midfield rotations and 3 starting mids instead of 4 is the current core requirement. I think that Angus Brayshaw provides more of a point of difference in there and that Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw is the go-to combination - another factor in this is that Angus has shown his breakaway from the stoppages delivers tremendous metres gained and he struggles to be effective elsewhere. The facts are we're a developing team that's currently middle of the road and we need to make a quantum step to mix it with the best teams - the key problem has been our connection with the forward line but that has been improving with Weed's establishment. Viney has all the attributes to make a real difference to converting our chances, locking it in and causing defender chaos balls if it does come back out. He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there. I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres, his tackling is legendary and opposition defenders will be crying themselves to sleep the night before playing us because if Jack doesn't get you, Kossie will and if you happen to escape the back 50 you'll run into Vanders. Jack might see his move from the midfield as a demotion and might play angry - look out! But the small forward role is glamour - I know he's a different type of player but think Robbie Gray. Toby Green and Cyril. He can be a legend down there. Come on Simon, you know it makes sense.

Closing in on 200 AFL games. I hope he gets there.

I had a fair bit of trouble warming to Dunn as a player. The faux tough guy antics he put on in the front half of his career drove me nuts. He showed loyalty through a tough era at the MFC though, when plenty of his mates walked, and overall has gone on to have a solid career. Best of luck to him.

Broomhead revisited, Dunn not done: Collingwood's forgotten return https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/broomhead-revisited-collingwood-forward-in-frame-to-return-after-two-years-20200810-p55kax.html Not sure he will make the cut (pardon the pun) to play his old side, but great to see Lyndon take the feild again after his career looked done and dusted. He's sure does blend in well down at Collingwood these days, with a look like this!! Good luck to him. Alway liked Dunn, a real heart and soul type of player. 0b038cfd8f49ec7480cd0af0194b3b8d763ba627.webp

Some thoughts on our Goalkicking woes and some quick fixes.(not rocket science just fundamental technical fixes) Petracca- Issues 1/ High Ball Drop 2/ Lay Back on closer set shots. Fix no.1. Replicate his good field kicking by going back a long way (Ben Brown) , obtaining speed on approach and picking a target well behind goals (ignoring Goal Posts). Fix no.2 On closer shots kick around the corner similar to (Dusty Martin) Martin rarely takes a set shot very similar style to Petracca, always attempts to play on Fritsch - Issues 1/ Right to Left swing similar to Tom Hawkins but opposite foot. Fix . Always aim to right of Goal Umpire or right goal post . Otherwise don't change anything. Weideman- Issues 1/ kicks to hard and pulls left 2/ Lays back and shanks to the right. Fix . Similar style to Tom Lynch of Richmond who is great set shot. Some quick fixes, basically he has a good set up , just needs to do everything straight, straight run-up, straight ball drop with index finger on seam, aim 20 metres over goal umpires head (don't over kick) head over the ball (Tom Lynch) and most important is a taut instep and point the toe. If anyone has links to the Melbourne FD please pass on, I have had a lot of success at local and bush footy with simple fixes such as this. Go Dees

I don’t see it a such a big deal. We have four very good mids in Viney , Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw. All we have to do is start one forward and rotate them all through that position. They are all very capable of kicking goals.

I did like the guy and he showed tremendous loyalty. It's a totally forgotten fact that it was Roos that turned Dunn and Howe into the great defenders that they are now. Would normally not want anything good for Collingwood but gee I wouldn't mind seeing him get the 200.

You seem to have ignored my points that: "He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there. I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres (and) his tackling is legendary"

Like you, I never really liked Dunn when he was here. Faux aggression, inconsistency, and a tendency to only play well in contract years. He's taken swipes at the club since then: might indicate his true feelings towards us, but I don't rate that sort of behaviour all the same. In response to those who suggest we made a mistake by trading him: you're wrong IMO. He was not fulfilling any sort of potential here. Plenty of players need a change of scenery to get the most out of themselves and Dunn was one of them.

I would still have Dunn’s haircut before I had a man-bun. Dylan Shiel’s man-bun is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen.

I think it's probably more about playing him more often in the forward line, than making him a forward. He's a proud player who has won B&Fs and just lost the captaincy. The last thing you want to do is give him implied reinforcement that his value is diminishing in the club. He usually plays lower minutes than most midfielders, so I would be telling him that we want to have him on the ground for longer, so he's going to do more minutes up forward, especially during the condensed fixture and given his importance once finals come around. He'll have success up forward so you'll be able to play him more up forward as the numbers show his quality up there. He's also a player that you want around the footy in big games and at big moments. His power and aggression in stoppages and around the ground is really, really valuable in finals. He was the leading contested ball winner in two of our finals in 2018 (on both teams) and he plays well when the pressure steps up. I'd play him as a 50/50 mid/forward. But in big games he still plays mainly midfield for mine. His power and aggression around the contest wins finals.

Dunno why some people have difficulty in admitting to mistakes in our list management strategy. Trading Howe & Martin & retiring James McDonald are prime examples. Losing Dunn & keeping Oscar was a shocker of a decision.

Who isn't? Keeps getting better every week, such a joy to watch.

Spargo did everything Harley didn't do against Adelaide which I believe led to HB getting dropped and why Spargo should hold his place. HB looked slow and tentative and I'm wondering if he hasn't got full confidence in his body. For me he's already exceeded any expectations I had of him for 2020. He's shown flashes of HB brilliance but the big win is that he's back playing and can build on that for 2021 and beyond. I'm not knocking him. I'm all aboard the Harley Express but expectations should be tempered. When the rest of the squad were doing the toughest pre-season ever, Harley was doing rehab - with the odd setback. He simply doesn't have the fitness base of the rest of the team. Who knows how many pre-seasons he missed at Freo. You don't get them back and you can't catch up during the season. He played against Carlton on the back of a 3 week block of training All that said, I hope & expect to see him back in the team this season

Who cares. Since when are nick names that aren't offsensive hate speech? Is it going to be offensive now to call Jack Watts - Wattsy because that isn't his real name? What a load of rubbish

TMac looked like he was getting some form back against Richmond and then early on in the Gold Coast game. I feel he has been a bit unlucky this year in that he has played when our delivery has been woeful. He has also generally played with little support, as we started the restart with only one key forward. While he looked out of very sorts against Port, again the delivery was terrible and our pressure was non existent for that game. (Jackson and Weideman also struggled that night.) The truth is that TMac might be finished as a footballer, but if we are going to go anywhere this year, I think we need him to be a good/very good player for us. Without having GPS data and behind the goals vision, it is hard to know if he is covering the ground like he used to. The key thing i like to see from him is that his timing is right for his marks and that he is hitting the drop of the ball at the peak. He did this in the last quarter against North, which was encouraging.

I think this is a "problem" (i.e. too many similar mids) for 2018 only, due to the 16 min quarters of this years games. Next year, I assume it goes back to 20 min quarters and our stable of Mids works more seamlessly. Also given the contested nature of the game and our game style in particular, may be that when we have we have fewer young players needing rest time, our mids rotate off the pine, rather than another position on the ground. That said, I think all the mids should have preferred second position on the ground, and it make sense that Viney's second position is up forward (same as Petracca). A side questions is where are Oliver's and Brayshaw's secondary positions..? Also, there appears to be an undue amount of "long term" thinking being derived from our efforts against the two worst teams in the comp, especially re- Viney Vs Brayshaw, which I don't believe to be a large enough and reliable enough dataset to make such long term decisions from. As always, in Goody I trust.

Just need him to start a ‘dees no chance for flag’ thread and we’re a shoe in ?

Lots of talk about who we move out of our team come the end of the year, this popping up today on SEN from our old assistant coach https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/08/10/hed-certainly-be-an-asset-at-any-team-melbournes-midfield-dilemma/ I don't understand the conundrum, Gerard Whateley (who I think is a right [censored]) said that Viney and Brayshaw are the same player, clearly has not watched us very closely, this is not a Brayshaw vs Viney issue. To me its clear, it's a Oliver and Viney issue. Now I would never want to trade either of these two, Viney is the one player who I think bleeds the most for the football club and Clarry is a freak who comes around not too often. I've been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks and I hope the concussion to Viney has shown Goodwin that this is the case. Both Viney and Clarry are see ball, get ball players they hunt it and often to the detriment of each other, how many times have we seen Melbourne players clash into eachother and the opposition get it to the outside? The Hunter (Viney or Oliver) The Explosion (Petracca) and a Smooth Mover (Brayshaw or ?) My solution is simple, Viney to become a burst midfielder, and Forwardline stoppage expert. We all know how damaging he can be around the ball and has shown not just recently he can take a decent ping at the goals, he will negate a dangerous backman and has strong hands overhead for a "little guy". Pop him in the middle when we need a statement or in finals, put a bit of fear in the opposition and give Clarry a rest down forward or on the bench. There's my two cents, I made a whole new account to do it haha.

Rubbish. A "bad player" doesn't play nearly 200 games. He's just an ok player. Very skilled, has obvious deficiencies. This mentality from so many footy fans that someone is either a complete dud or an absolute star is just incredibly shallow.

Didn't say it was offensive mate. Just think given what this thread is in context of it's more respectful to use his actual name. Referring to him as "Harry O" is a pretty transparent way to try and belittle the subject matter.

I think Tommy is done 'Macca'... Runs like he is stuck in the tram tracks, no sideways movement. Not that he had much in the first place but what ever he did have is gone now. I think he needs someone like Sidebottom to run him back into form...

1. Use his actual name and show some respect. 2. Did you actually read the article? If not, I'll save you some time and let you know it contains 0 evidence, facts, sources or even comments from either of the two people it's about. It merely says an investigation is 'expected to reveal'. It's absolute gutter journalism as usual from Fox. They know how to generate engagement though, just write a snappy headline about racism and the clicks come from everywhere. 3. Of course all the above doesn't even being to address the full context of the situation and footy club culture.

With last nights results, spots 7 and 8 and finals are up for grabs. Will be decided between: Saints, Bulldogs, Ess, Pies, Suns (maybe) and Dees. We play the first 4 in coming weeks; all 8 point games for us. Finals are now in our control. This has a 2018 feel about it: Shaky start. Smashed then players publicly blow torched by the club. Started getting some good wins (albeit vs mediocre sides). Then had 'must win' games vs goodish sides to finish off the season. Its exciting to see how far we can go. At least we are still a very good chance and it makes the rest of the season interesting. Feeling good about where we sit.

Lumumba for Clark wasn't an error. It was just a trade swap of players (not controlled by Taylor), both of whom did nothing at their respective new clubs. We didn't win or lose. Any player from a rookie draft is speculative, and hardly a major fail when they don't make it given the price you pay for them.

Yes let's hope he can put his name up for consideration whatever our season holds. BTW have been really pleased with Hibbo after such a tough year. He has lost weight is faster and disposal back to 3017/18 level.

As per what I wrote in the EPL thread, here we go, @binman. We don't press as highly in the forward 50 as the Liverpool style, but that's because they're different games - Liverpool would press right up to the box. We tend to zone across half forward and then press hard between half forward and the wing if the opposition tries to run and carry the ball out of our offensive zone. Usually teams are out if they get through that forward press, but this year we've tweaked our zone, so we play a double wall in effect. One zone across half forward and then another zone set 20m or so back from that. It's that second zone that provides the press between wing and half forward. One of the interesting things is that teams seem to try to play quite narrow in order to get through our first forward zone at their half back. There is usually enough width to our zone to enable one or two defenders to get back and cover if both zones are pierced, and then the likes of Langdon get back to sweep as well. They also talk about getting delay on the footy. Melksham mentioned this in the post game interview on the website. This is obviously so that it gives our zone time to set itself and cover any opposition transition. In this respect, the AFL is quite different from soccer, in that there's a lot more space that a zone needs to cover, so holding up the opposition is akin to taking a yellow card and bringing a runner down when a side is on the counter in soccer. Our version of getting delay on the footy is tackling, corralling and zoning. There is a similarity between the way Guardiola plays and the way we are best served. Guardiola's teams pass the ball around midfield and the wings in a similar way to Klopp's team, but Guardiola's try to use pace to get in behind the defence once the zone is spread thin, whereas Klopp's innovation has seen an evolution of that - the backs playing as wingers and ensuring the wingers can provide those crosses or an extra outlet to get overlap and pierce the defensive zone. Man City do it a bit too, but the system isn't second nature to them, because they've relied on pace to get in behind traditionally. I think in comparison to the Guardiola and Klopp examples of attack above, we prefer the Guardiola version, IMO, where we move the ball quickly inside 50, via the corridor or around the wings (essentially getting in behind the opposition), but with devastating efficiency of disposal. So 3 or 4 40m kicks from half back result in our team walking in a goal or getting to a good position in front of goal. Where we've struggled is when teams have denied us 'getting in behind' as it were and we've had to work our way forward slowly from centre wing onwards. This requires us to hit up those little leads and use the width of the ground where possible in order to either get it to an inside 50 target or take a shot from just outside 50. My sense is we'd prefer to hit someone up closer to goal and get a higher percentage shot than taking aim from outside 50. I think we need to have a mixture of both approaches. Here is the article from the EPL thread. https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/28/premier-league-2019-20-what-we-learned-tactically-klopp-liverpool-guardiola-manchester-city?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Viney is first and foremost a midfielder, but one of the problems with the game plan is that we still lack enough defensive fotwards to continually lock the ball in the forward line. Viney is ranked as elite for stoppage clearances, contested possessions and goal assists. If it helps balance the side for him to spend more time forward it's worth a go.

I seem to remember they both played their early games forward, not back.

Jack should play as high half forward to in the right games pushes to the stoppage as an additional midfielder. That aside he would be one of the best pressure specialists in the game and would maximise our inside 50 containment. It also minimises impact on his body for second half of year and shorter turnarounds. This to me is a fab 2020 idea as all 4 horseman will be needed once we get back to standard quarter lengths in 2021.

I could be on my own here, but surely using the Port game as evidence that LJ, Weeds and TMac can't work is not super clever. The whole team played terribly that night and the magnitude and manner of the lose simply cannot be attributed to playing 3 talls in any possible way.

I think it's robbing Peter to pay Paul a little. I'm not against the idea but Viney is fantastic in the middle and up until the Adelaide game was clearly performing better than Oliver this year. Oliver has stepped it up but Viney almost singlehandedly willed us over the line against the Lions. We do need a point of difference in the middle but we could just as easily use Petracca as the "outside" midfielder delivering the ball instead of winning the contest. The problem for me isn't Viney, the problem is Brayshaw's inability to play any other role. If he's as good on the outside as those who want him in the middle think then he should be perfectly suited to play the wing opposite Langdon on the other side. The fact he hasn't been able to own that position is a detriment to himself. I'm for whatever makes the team better overall so if that means Viney as a pressure forward I'm all for it. I'm just not sure it will work out but it's worth giving it a shot.

I posted about this in the Game plan thread that just popped up recently, I think its a great idea! My main problem is that Viney and Oliver can't play in a stoppage together, they literally fight over the ball. Player either of them forward when one is on the ball. Viney's defensive attributes would make him a great forward and we know he can go the footy.

I rate the idea of trying him up forward. Our midfield benefits with Brayshaw in and under. Viney can and needs to used elsewhere.

I think this plays into how Goodwin wants to play territory as well. You've got to be able to lock the ball in there with sustained pressure and then convert your opportunities when they present themselves. To my mind, we weren't locking the ball in well enough earlier in the year and it's why teams could rebound against us too easily. I think we've shifted the focus slightly in the last two weeks to attack from half back, rather than the centre stoppage, but against the better teams it's absolutely imperative we build the pressure by locking it inside. I think we need to pursue two talls, three mids sized and three pressure players rotating between the wing, half forward and inside 50. My ideal personnel are as follows: * two talls - Weideman and Jackson (McDonald as back up and at a stretch, Brown is depth too). * three mid sized - Melksham, Fritsch and Hannan (Bennell and Hannan probably competing for the last position here, but Bennell could eventually push up into the midfield). * three pressure forwards - Kozzie, Viney, Harmes (Vanders can play here too, as well as on the wing, while ANB is depth here, Viney and Harmes can roll through the midfield if need be too).

@A F @bobby1554 - yes it's only 12/13 days and not 21 - what's your take thus far?

Ralph said on fox footy need yesterday that it will be announced today dees to play bombers in alice springs in round 14. So pies, bulldogs and bombers. The oldest team in the league, named after the capital of Victoria, playing three proud Victorian teams in Brisbane, gold coast and the Alice. Surreal times.

Dunn was “traded” at the end of 2016 after being ignored for the year. Dunn and pick 51 to Pies for pick 47! Delisted effectively. He stuck with the Dees through the very lean years. 11 years. 165 games. Former vice captain. Dees said they preferred young Frost and Oscar McDonald. Perhaps in hindsight, we’d have kept Dunn. He has had knee injury issues at Pies but otherwise played some pretty good footy. This year will be his last so good to see him finish on his terms.

A dour player that stuck fat through some horrid years at the Demons. While he never shot any lights out he was at least semi reliable and rarely got pantsed either from memory. To think how much we all love a torp but kicking one out of the square probably sealed his fate under Roos et al. Hope he does well and that's saying something given my adoration of all things black & white.

In: Lockhart, Viney, Gawn out: Harmes, Jones, McDonald

Oliver is the outstanding pick. A chubby kid that didn't play in the National Championships was an inspired pick. Have a feeling the early investment in Jackson will be another. The signs are good. But plenty of water needs to pass under the bridge yet. All young players eventually sucumb to injury, form, confidence issues. It's a tough game. Pickett is very raw. In time he'll learn how to stick tackles, get to the right positions and nail set shots...

Young/ Jackson. You say we needed a HBF?Really? Still not sold on Pickett? Listen to Healy and del Santo But my principal beef is your judging our recruiting by reference, often to rookie picks or v low draft picks . I’d like to know what is the average number of games played by rookies— at any club. Buggerall I should think . If any AFL player plays more than 50 games it is a recruiting success, unless he’s a first rounder . How can the recruiting of McDonald at 53 be regarded as a failure? Kent wanted to go to St K. He had been often injured ( and still is) . I liked him but what was his trade value? When Tyson was recruited we needed him badly. We were at rock bottom, he gave us a number of v good seasons and anyway, wasn’t he a package with Salem? Can Taylor be blamed for Koladjasnij’s concussion. .?He was a v good player at GC . Petty an error? How on earth can u say that after his games last year? Wagner, a rookie, has played some serviceable games and I bet he plays some this year. V good rookie pickup in my view . And Weideman a fail.Really?

If we're serious about playing finals and taking the next step, we need to win these next two games. But Collingwood's ceiling is above ours and they've gone deep into finals the last two years despite having long injury lists. The Dogs can play scintillating football, and their recent poor form will at least in part be because their last three matches have been vs Brisbane, Port and Richmond. Meanwhile we've taken until the fourth quarter to shake off 18th and 17th. The true test starts on Saturday. Knock of Collingwood and I'll be far more confident about our chances of picking up the 5-6 wins we need from here.

When you watch the game live on the AFL App you can watch it either as the tv video or as a top down plan of the ground with the little player numbers moving around (their GPS locations). It's a few seconds delay from live but if you delay your Kayo stream you can see the full ground at all times.The ball is shown as well, probably hand drawn in thus the delay. I use it a lot late last year, and some may recall posts I made about Tomlinson playing the defensive wing position which you don't see on tv. It's really frustrating that they don't publish the data or the heat maps after the game. Honestly, I think most of the published AFL stats are rubbish, or at the least they don't infer what the media claims they do. Contested possessions (picking up a loose back under no pressure or running a physical contest in the backline) and DE% (hit a player on the chest or bomb it long to disadvantage in a 4 v 4 pack) are the classic ones. For example, to gauge pressure I'd be interested to see effective corrals and total tackles, not just tackles that cause possession spills. I've been looking for a good stats and tactics analysis website for a while but am struggling to find much. I've recently read posts here but I struggle to find much more detailed. https://www.statsinsider.com.au/afl/stats-that-matter-the-tactical-evolution-of-afl I'm particularly interested in positioning and zone movement vs ball movement because I think that's key in 2020. The post above by @Axis of Bob lays out the few available strategies so simply, everything after that is tactical execution but it just never gets described that way. At the ground I usually sit level 2 behind the goals, so @binman your post resonated with me. The last few years we have been more exciting to watch than most teams because of Goodwins experimental set ups and positioning (diamond defence anyone) and I was very frustrated when 666 came in and stiffled that innovation.

Doesn’t tackle, can’t evade tackles, naturally isn’t strong in the air but he’s hardly winning it at ground level all that well either. Doesn’t break lines or burst out in space. He used it well enough and it’s always hard to value the importance of a guy who still knows pretty well where to run. But he’s an aging midfield playing wing/forward. If we’re a decent side we’ll have better options

Indeed. How many premierships are won with 22 star players, absolutely none. Always will like Jack if only for the goal that killed Collingwood...

They must truly believe we are all a bunch of fools who came down in the last shower.

If you are talking about the “run too far” free it was another umpire shocker. He took 10-11 steps and was pinged. Terrible decision.

Fair enough. I disagree. I don't think he'd a lock if he was 180cm. That seems nonsensical to me. If he's good enough he'd be a lock. And as it stands, if he continues to connect mids with deeper forwards (as he did throughout 2018) it doesn't really matter if he was 170cm or 180cm. As you point out, he has elite agility, is neat with the ball and clever (ie runs to the right positions). These traits could well make him succeed, particularly in our system, across half forward. We move the ball incredibly quickly and being able to turn on a dim as he's able to and keep it moving, makes him a very handy addition to our forwardline. As @Nasher pointed out too, clearly Taylor saw something in this mixture of traits (agility, smarts and clean ball use) to use a relatively good second round pick on him. Of course, Taylor could be wrong, but I've always liked Charlie and I'd prefer to look at what he brings in-game rather than look at his profile that tells us he's closer to 170cm and seemingly make a judgement on that. Each to their own there and all apart of a rigorous, interesting discussion. : )

Seriously? He'll 'learn' not to give away absolutely stupid frees and 50s? At 28? If he had been dropped before the North game, as he should have, maybe he could have 'learned' something.