The 2009 List

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Neitz will be 34 in 2009. Notwithstanding injuries, Neitz in 2007 was a shadow of the player he once was. I would think that if he has a season like last year I think he will retire. In the modern times of flooding how often is Neitz one on one with a full back. Not often. And not likely to be with a one paced midfield.

Heavens help us if we are left with PJ and Jamar who struggle at AFL and have done so for some time. White may be signed on for another 12 months.

The loss of the experienced players you talk will happen over a two year period and Robbo is contracted for 2009 and Junior would be good for another year.

[Demons 32 235]

Neitz brings those things?

Definately the identity. He is pretty much the only player on the team who anybody would know.

Id agree on the heart. How often do you hear about that everything he does lifts and makes every one better.

I would even consider agreeing about the soul part.

We may not all appreciate him yet, but he has been one of the greatest and most loyal players we have had, naturally in time he will be respected greater.

[drdrake 3,035]

I agree Rhino on Neitz, but isn't then our problem our midfield, if they can't move the ball quick enough to take advantage of a man that will beat most fullbacks one on one why should he be under the pressure to retire. IMO he has been poorly coached for the past 4 years and this is because of an unfit Robbo, Neitz has been forced out of his comfort area as a sole FF. Robbo need to be on a flank.

On the rucks, how can you be so sure about PJ and Jamar, when they do play they sit on the bench for 25mins a quarter have 5-10mins to be stars. They are sometimes thrown into positions when the team is in trouble. We don't need rucks they are over rated we need KPP, hard at it big men, there has to be another J Brown somewhere in next years draft.

We will lose a lot of senior players over the next 2-3 years but not all at once.

[Demons 32 235]

I agree Rhino on Neitz, but isn't then our problem our midfield, if they can't move the ball quick enough to take advantage of a man that will beat most fullbacks one on one why should he be under the pressure to retire. IMO he has been poorly coached for the past 4 years and this is because of an unfit Robbo, Neitz has been forced out of his comfort area as a sole FF. Robbo need to be on a flank.

While I love Neitz and would love to support him at all times.

I don't believe our midfield is the issue at all.

We have a fair bit of talent in their and the problem to me does seem to be the forward set up.

Ideally having Newton at Forward pocket and Robbo playing on a flank would make alot of room for Neitz.

However, with the big man nearing the end, and Newton the only obvious successor, it could be pointless going to the effort of creating a new Neitz friendly structure when it will need to change soon after. We need to attempt, at the ver least attempt runnin a forward line that is essentially to Full Forwards.

[The Emblem 1]

I agree Rhino on Neitz, but isn't then our problem our midfield, if they can't move the ball quick enough to take advantage of a man that will beat most fullbacks one on one why should he be under the pressure to retire. IMO he has been poorly coached for the past 4 years and this is because of an unfit Robbo, Neitz has been forced out of his comfort area as a sole FF. Robbo need to be on a flank.

On the rucks, how can you be so sure about PJ and Jamar, when they do play they sit on the bench for 25mins a quarter have 5-10mins to be stars. They are sometimes thrown into positions when the team is in trouble. We don't need rucks they are over rated we need KPP, hard at it big men, there has to be another J Brown somewhere in next years draft.

We will lose a lot of senior players over the next 2-3 years but not all at once.

Neitz is one of the greatest players the club has ever had, and one-on-one he is still a handful for most oppo FB's one on one.

The problem, as you rightly point out, is that the ball doesn't come down fast enough and this is unlikely to be rectified on a consistent basis this year. That being the case Nieta is not only being double teamed but much worse the opposition backs have been able to exploit his age / lack of mobility by rebounding off of him and the ball is racing towards our midfield and backs at breakneck speed [the knee injuries to Robbo & Davey accentuated this problem in our forward line last year]. So I can't see Neita going around in 2009.

We will miss Neita when he's gone, just how much depends on the development of our forwards in the 21-24 year old bracket.

[drdrake 3,035]

Newton is soft, he takes the easy option and looks better suited on a wing than at FF. Why would you get Robbo out of Neita's space and replace him with Newton, creates the same problem a guy leading his defender to make a good one on one contest to a pack situation.

Our midfield are all clones of each other, Jones, Mclean, McDonald, Moloney, Sylvia, Green, Bruce, Bate are all one paced and slow paced at that, the fisrt five mentioned all win there own footy but besides a fit Sylvia can't burst away from the contest, the next two just run at the same speed with no aceleration and one can't kick and the last one is lazy has speed but no acceleration, which means he takes time to wind up and can look slow. Our midfield is our biggest concern if we can't get the ball deep inside 50m you wont win games no matter how is at FF

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I agree Rhino on Neitz, but isn't then our problem our midfield, if they can't move the ball quick enough to take advantage of a man that will beat most fullbacks one on one why should he be under the pressure to retire. IMO he has been poorly coached for the past 4 years and this is because of an unfit Robbo, Neitz has been forced out of his comfort area as a sole FF. Robbo need to be on a flank.

On the rucks, how can you be so sure about PJ and Jamar, when they do play they sit on the bench for 25mins a quarter have 5-10mins to be stars. They are sometimes thrown into positions when the team is in trouble. We don't need rucks they are over rated we need KPP, hard at it big men, there has to be another J Brown somewhere in next years draft.

We will lose a lot of senior players over the next 2-3 years but not all at once.

DrD, Our midfield is a problem and that is one issue to resolve. In the modern running game unless you are flogging the opposition it is very difficult to manufacture the one on one plays we all know. All oppositions know about Neitz's strength and are not going to give him the latitude there. Robbo has never played a flank and his best value in the FF line as marking smaller player. Neitz has been the sole FF. Furthermore Robbo's inability to chase and defend would make him a greater liability up towards the centre. I have thought Robbo's marking style would have complemented Neitz rather than hindered him. Nevertheless I am puzzled why Neitz has been badly coached over the past 4 years. If anything ND played to game plan that played to Neitz.

Jamar and PJ have regularly had more than 5 to 10 minutes. White has not been able to ruck for that long for the past 2 to 3 years. In addition on days when White is being flogged, Jamar and PJ have both been used extensively. Jamar is no better player now than he was 3 years ago and that worrying. He has a constant characteristic. He does not get the ball and his ruckwork is mediocre. PJ is 200 cm rover. You are right ruckwork is overrated. But if you cant have a Dean Cox and dominate you need to have a competitive ruck that at least prevents any advantage to the opposition. Thomas at the St Kilda skimped on his rucks and it killed his team.

Keep hoping for a J Brown. There has only been one and I am not sure that the powerhouse forward is the way of the future. Although I would not turn down a J Brown.

[drdrake 3,035]

You make apoint Rhino about PJ and Jamar being used when White was getting flogged, nice time to be given your chance to prove you can ruck when the opposition ruckman are dominating you. Robbo started as a HFF went to CHF when the Ox retired and was only put to FF in 2004 or 5 when Neitz was out. If Robbo is such a liability we should of taken the second round pick from the dogs for him then. Robbo brings his defender to Neitz taking away his strenght and making it a pack contest. I agree though in 2002 to 2004 we became on dimentional to Neitz, but the Neitz/Robbo combination always works better when one of them is out.

Power forwards will come back a coach will come up with an idea to play a forward 6 a back 6 and 6 midfielders, the team will dominate and all other coaches will follow them.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

While I love Neitz and would love to support him at all times.

I don't believe our midfield is the issue at all.

We have a fair bit of talent in their and the problem to me does seem to be the forward set up.

Ideally having Newton at Forward pocket and Robbo playing on a flank would make alot of room for Neitz.

Good grief. We have been smashed in the clearances and had one of the lowest inside 50s last year. We desperately lack real class in the engine room and its shows big time. It remains a real problem regardless of Neitz.

Robbo is a fish out of water anywhere away from FF line. Unless he learns some defensive skills and chases and stops playing for himself he will end marshalling the leadership team with Yze at Sandy.

Definately the identity. He is pretty much the only player on the team who anybody would know.

Id agree on the heart. How often do you hear about that everything he does lifts and makes every one better.

I would even consider agreeing about the soul part.

We may not all appreciate him yet, but he has been one of the greatest and most loyal players we have had, naturally in time he will be respected greater.

As much as I respect Neitz is there a captain besides Kane Johnson that has a lower profile? I would have thought Flash and Robbo are better known generally as identities. Not necessarily respected as much.

Neitz's ability to influence a game has diminished with injury and age and he needs to be managed through this season. After some of the selections in the leadership group this year I am not sure anyone know what makes every one better.

FCS, Collingwood and Essendon have each said goodbye to one of their greatest players in Buckley and Hird. They have moved on. Lets not get caught in the hyberbole, Neitz has been a wonderful servant to the Club but he aint in either Hird's and Buckley's sphere.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You make apoint Rhino about PJ and Jamar being used when White was getting flogged, nice time to be given your chance to prove you can ruck when the opposition ruckman are dominating you. Robbo started as a HFF went to CHF when the Ox retired and was only put to FF in 2004 or 5 when Neitz was out. If Robbo is such a liability we should of taken the second round pick from the dogs for him then. Robbo brings his defender to Neitz taking away his strenght and making it a pack contest. I agree though in 2002 to 2004 we became on dimentional to Neitz, but the Neitz/Robbo combination always works better when one of them is out.

Power forwards will come back a coach will come up with an idea to play a forward 6 a back 6 and 6 midfielders, the team will dominate and all other coaches will follow them.

Dr, Jamar and PJ have had significant on field time and have shown little. That's why the Club gambled with Meesen. That one might not pay off given early form.

I wish the Club had traded Robbo for the 2nd round pick. Robbo is a hard mark up because his marking ability for his short stature. Robbo was superb in 2005 kicking 75 goals. He did not do that from a flank. And its a misnomer to think otherwise.

I actually waiting for the drop kick to make a return when a coach works out what to do with it! Static 6-6-6 football like the 90s is gone and the game has changed since Carey ruled the open forward lines. Players are covering so much more ground and exploit the opposition at various points around the ground. Brown is a very good footballer. I dont think there is many around as the influence of Hall, Tredrea and Gehrig has diminished.

Dr I do agree with your assessment of the importance of the midfield. You summed it up well.

[Dee man 299]

Outs: Neitz, Yze, McDonald, Holland, White, Johnson.C, Jamar, Miller, Whelan, Bode, Warnock

Can't see a mass exodus like what you have suggested.

Can see Neitz and possibly Holland or Whelan retiring, but Yze, McDonald and White still have more to offer, especially Jmac - he's been our best player by a country mile for the last two years!!!!!!

Probably agree with the rest, but I believe that all of Miller, CJ and Bode (especially CJ) still have got talent to become solid contributors to the side.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Maybe instead of a Demon...our mascot out to be a crab...once they grab hold they don tlet go...bit like some of the dinosaurs running around !!!..Everything has its time.. but the time for some has gone. That some have chosen to stay past their effectiveness to me opens them up for critique.

I agree Rhino ( this must hurt...lol ) our clearances are abysmal. No prizes for guessing why. Robbo needs to do more and for more of the game. if he's going to carry another injury for most of the year I wish he'd do it somewhere else.

We might get away with requiring respect ( decent defenders) on thses players whilst they do 'something' but the moment the oppo twigs were in deep do-do !!

Time to move on..................... Melbourne !!!

[drdrake 3,035]

I don't disagree in Neitz likelyhood of retiring at the end of 2008 but if he can kick 50+ goals this year and wants to play on he should be able to. If on the other hand he decides like Hird/Voss/Buckey to retire we will all stand at the years end and applaud the man.

On the rucks, they had time on the field but some of it wasn't in the ruck, White still rucked two thirds of every game. All I'm saying is that we need to give these guys the first opportunity to ruck, if PJ or Meesen can compete in ruck contests and pick up 10-15 touches a game that will do. Jamar as stated is different he will need to win a higher percentage of taps.

[Paul Gardner 6]

Winning games is nice, winning premierships is what counts

If the right player is available, sure...we could trade to get one, but they would have to be: in order of priority:

A) CHB / CHF type... what club is going going to let a quality one of those go?

B/ Ruckman...we may have to trade to get an experienced one, as well a Natanui if 08 all goes to hell

C) Outside Midfielder with blistering pace and skills

A/ CHB / CHF type... There was one there for the taking last ('07) draft [Lauchlan Henderson], he went pick 8 to Leigh Matthews..Potential pick 4? We could have him & be putting games into him now.

B/ Ruckman... Cameron wood, 204cm young ruckman. Why couldn't we trade TJ & our 3rd round pick to the Lions for this kid?

C/ Outside Midfielder... these types are way more common than keys & rucks, & take less time to develope them. Was there a good skilled outside type available @ pick 21???

[Dee*ceiving 862]

I like the effort but do you not think it would be more pertinent to make this sort of analysis at the end of the season. Or at least after they have played a few real games.

[The Emblem 1]

I like the effort but do you not think it would be more pertinent to make this sort of analysis at the end of the season. Or at least after they have played a few real games.

Now where's the fun in that?

[The Emblem 1]

A/ CHB / CHF type... There was one there for the taking last ('07) draft [Lauchlan Henderson], he went pick 8 to Leigh Matthews..Potential pick 4? We could have him & be putting games into him now.

B/ Ruckman... Cameron wood, 204cm young ruckman. Why couldn't we trade TJ & our 3rd round pick to the Lions for this kid?

C/ Outside Midfielder... these types are way more common than keys & rucks, & take less time to develope them. Was there a good skilled outside type available @ pick 21???

A: I definately agree with you on Lachie Henderson...but its spilt milk now.

B: Don't know much about Cameron Wood, interesting to see how he develops...DB obviously sees something in Meesen.

C: Outside midfielders are easier [I'm not saying dead easy] to find

[Dee Fan 3,247]

If its a bad year, I have listed 8 that could go without much effort before you even look at trades and possibly clearing out a rookie or two.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but MFC overrated the list and the draft penalties of 1999/2000 and the poor draft performance of 2001 has left us with a gaping hole in the list

I would have to say that there have been many people on here and on Demonology that have been calling for the heads of some chronic non performers over the last 5 to 6 years, so I don't consider this to be a hindsight issue. The truth of the matter is that for one reason or another we have allowed some good players to slip through our grasp, Thompson, Jolly and Snake to name a few and have retained some ordinary players for much too long like Jamar, Biz and Yze.

You are spot on about our list it has been vastly over rated by both the club and the supporters and now it's all come crashing down around us, our recruiting and list management is now a major problem. I have just been through a lengthy debate on here about our recruiting and it is probably not much use doing that again but I stick by my opinion that it has been sub standard.

We have not made the right strategic decisions about where we were and where we should be and have missed he boat in terms of a renewal of our list. We have imo, been too focused on getting in to the finals and have let the rebuilding process slip by us. We could have traded TJ when he was worth something but waited until he was almost devoid of currency and got for our troubles a kid, who before he starts his career is out injured for 6 to 8 with a groin problem.

We have to start this rebuilding now and forget about winning enough games to get us to maybe 8th to 10th, that is just totally useless to us at this point in time.

[sylvinator 96]

Retiring at years end:

Neitz- almost certainly will retire

Whelan- almost certainly will retire

Yze- almost certainly will retire

Holland- almost certainly will retire

McDonald- Probably will retire

White- Likely to retire, but probably retire in 2010. we will still desperately need him in 2009.

Delisted at years end:

Warnock- Kept purely as depth this year and will not play a game unless required by injury

Jamar- kept as depth and shouldnt play more than a handful of games. only way he will play is if PJ and Meesan let Bailey down

Wheatley- Could go either way. if he plays most games theres no way he'll retire, but if others go ahead of him on the flanks then theres no position for him.

C.Johnson- make or break year. if he doesn't play 14 games then y keep him on the list?

we should have another turnover of 9-10 players...finally get all the dead wood out. its taken too long.

[paddo 0]

A/ CHB / CHF type... There was one there for the taking last ('07) draft [Lauchlan Henderson], he went pick 8 to Leigh Matthews..Potential pick 4? We could have him & be putting games into him now.

B/ Ruckman... Cameron wood, 204cm young ruckman. Why couldn't we trade TJ & our 3rd round pick to the Lions for this kid?

C/ Outside Midfielder... these types are way more common than keys & rucks, & take less time to develope them. Was there a good skilled outside type available @ pick 21???

For goodness sake, can't we let at least half a season play out before we make judgements on players we picked up at the end of last year. People tend to easily forget the hype around Cale Morton. As for John Meesen, we have to give him a fair go, remembering he was a top 10 pick in 2004 so the guy obviously has talent.

I'm not too pleased with how things have gone this preseason, but everything around here is so morbid atm.

[Rivers Run Red 182]

For goodness sake, can't we let at least half a season play out before we make judgements on players we picked up at the end of last year. People tend to easily forget the hype around Cale Morton. As for John Meesen, we have to give him a fair go, remembering he was a top 10 pick in 2004 so the guy obviously has talent.

I'm not too pleased with how things have gone this preseason, but everything around here is so morbid atm.

Number 8 in fact, I hope he has a good year. I was worried when I heard that Adelaide gave him up given the status of thier ruck stocks at the moment...

[Damo 2,970]

Yes its that time of year to put off decisions.

Ive heard so far:

1)Lets wait for a practice game.

2) lets wait till we get some of our 22 back

3) Bailey is experimenting

4) Wait till the real thing starts

5) Wait until round 2 when they have played themselves in

6) lets wait until round 15 until we can see what we have got

I havent yet heard but I am waiting for:

We will be much better for Queens Birthday

We will be better after the break

Bailey hasnt got a settled Marketing/Membership division

Bailey was stuck with such and such assistant coaches

Bailey didnt have time to assess the national draft and get a better swap for TJ

The real reason we dropped the Demons from our name

[Neita3000 37]

We could have traded TJ when he was worth something but waited until he was almost devoid of currency and got for our troubles a kid, who before he starts his career is out injured for 6 to 8 with a groin problem.

Pick 14 for TJ was pretty good I reckon.

Cale Morton the other day in an interview said his preferred position down the track was key position. Thought that was interesting. He's a super talented kid.

[maximum bob 462]

I like the effort but do you not think it would be more pertinent to make this sort of analysis at the end of the season. Or at least after they have played a few real games.

Tata this was exactly the same sort of analysis made by a lot of posters LAST year. Newbies, rookies and a-few-game players apart.

It was pertinent last year.

It's a hell of a lot more pertinent now considering how inept the team is. Where's the proof otherwise?

The imbalance between the 'older, experienced' brigade on their last legs (with Fanny Adams trade value) and the 'promising future' of the newer players who need time at our club is very lop-sided.

We basically have two teams out there and mate, they're not gelling.

[beelzebub 22,225]

We basically have two teams out there and mate, they're not gelling.

thats about 99% of it...Im not sure what the other per cent is...but youve pretty well summed it up Bob !!