MFC statement re First Nations Voice to Parliament Referendum

[Dr. Gonzo 20,574]

3 minutes ago, Cheap Seats said:

Yeh I get it.

But these people still vote, they have a right to be heard.

I'm not saying anyone should listen. A good system makes sure they're know as idiots not censored.

 

I never said to censor them.

I said "Democracy only works when opinions are informed. Otherwise it is just people pushing their own prejudices."

[KLV 1,373]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not blaming democracy, just pointing out this "everyone has a right to an opinion" is a fallacy. If your opinion is contrary to facts or logic then it is a castle built on sand and not worth giving the time of day.

On another note I have to say I find this argument that having a voice enshrined in the constitution is racist/discriminatory quite hilarious considering the history of this country. No, this won't solve everything for First Nations people and their communities but it is a step in the right direction in them achieving self determination. Will it address disadvantage of non- indigenous people? No and it's not designed to, there are other avenues and mechanisms for that. Governments can walk and chew gum, it's not an either/or proposition.

What it will do is enshrine it constitutionally so that it can't be disbanded by a future government with their own agenda. I have hope that the LNP is in its death rattle as an organisation, they are far removed from the Menzies era and are now nothing but a loose association of the far-right, mining apologists and Christian fundamentalists but if they do ever get back into government they will be unable to dismantle the voice to parliament if it is enshrined in the constitution.

Great post

 

[Cheap Seats 2,908]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I never said to censor them.

I said "Democracy only works when opinions are informed. Otherwise it is just people pushing their own prejudices."

You did 

But you also said stop them spreading disinformation which could be perceived as censorship. 

Mate it's all good, just a chat, I don't really care that much. It's just a thought piece nothing more.

Enjoy your crusade bringing down the evils in society.

By the way ppl have never really been informed that is a complete falacy. I mean what does that even mean in reality? 

Surely the majority take a position based on personal values over being informed. How exactly do you be completely informed on a complex issue such as this.

Edited May 23 by Cheap Seats

[rpfc 24,338]

7 minutes ago, Cheap Seats said:

I think it's a simple comparison everyone gets?

Does it offend you?

The Hitler comparison doesn’t offend ME no. 

You intimated you had to use that reference as people wouldn’t be able to comprehend you - and I attempted to make a humorous retort.

Personally, I always hate it when people push me down controversial and mildly offensive rabbit holes because of their ignorance.

I fall for it every time!

 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 9,104]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Sport and Politics has always and will always mix.

My dad was an avid amature athletics compeditor and enthusiast around Peter's time always impressioned this story/event on me.

Sport is so great at uniting people of different cultures and backgrounds to come together in the true spirit of sportsmanship, that when it is combined with great humanitarian and social rights causes it enhances both.

 

Winning an Olympic silver medal in the 200m for Australia is a huge achievement.  Peter Norman was an awsome athlete in his own right, but it's because of his moral courage that I personally rate and admire him above many other prominent Australian sportsman of my lifetime.

 

Courtesy of Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Norman

After the 200 metres final, the three athletes went to the medal podium for their medals to be presented by David Cecil, 6th Marquess of Exeter. On the podium, during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner", Smith and Carlos famously joined in a Black Power salute. This salute was later described in Tommie Smith's autobiography as a human rights salute, not a Black Power salute.

Norman wore a badge on the podium in support of the Olympic Project for Human Rights (OPHR). After the final, Carlos and Smith had told Norman what they were planning to do during the ceremony. As journalist Martin Flanagan wrote: "They asked Norman if he believed in human rights. He said he did. They asked him if he believed in God. Norman, who came from a Salvation Army background, said he believed strongly in God. We knew that what we were going to do was far greater than any athletic feat. He said, 'I'll stand with you'. Carlos said he expected to see fear in Norman's eyes. He didn't; 'I saw love'." On the way to the medal ceremony, Norman saw the OPHR badge being worn by Paul Hoffman, a white member of the US rowing team, and asked him if he could wear it. It was Norman who suggested that Smith and Carlos share the black gloves used in their salute, after Carlos left his pair at the Olympic Village. This is the reason for Smith raising his right fist, while Carlos raised his left.

Treatment between 1968–1972

After the salute, Norman's career suffered greatly. A 2012 CNN profile said that "he returned home to Australia a pariah, suffering unofficial sanction and ridicule as the Black Power salute's forgotten man. He never ran in the Olympics again." Commentators say he was not selected for the Olympic Games in Munich in 1972 despite recording qualifying times, and was not welcomed even 32 years later at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney. Carlos later stated that "If we [Carlos and Smith] were getting beat up, Peter was facing an entire country and suffering alone."

[whatwhat say what 15,082]

34 minutes ago, Cheap Seats said:

No worries.

You enjoy your crusade, that's what freedom is about.

For me I'm just stating not everyone to agree with you 

It becomes a slippery slope when the popular rhetoric decide what's right 

Go check out what Hitler and Stalin did

godwin's law invoked; kills this thread please mods

[Cheap Seats 2,908]

9 minutes ago, rpfc said:

The Hitler comparison doesn’t offend ME no. 

You intimated you had to use that reference as people wouldn’t be able to comprehend you - and I attempted to make a humorous retort.

Personally, I always hate it when people push me down controversial and mildly offensive rabbit holes because of their ignorance.

I fall for it every time!

 

Fair enough.

I'm not making any judgement about you just seeking clarity as it was you who committed on my post.

I'm sure you can understand the need for clarity rather than making assumptions 

[Flag 2021 81]

In a 1967 referendum Australians voted overwhelmingly to remove racism from the constitution and empower aboriginal people with the right to vote.

Until 1967 they did not have the right to vote. Prior to 1967 the word 'race' was in the wording of our constitution  and was, in this rewording ,expunged.

This upcoming referendum seeks to return race into the constitution. The aboriginal has, currently the same electoral franchise as anybody else in this country - that is, the right to cast a vote.

What is being proposed now is, effectively, a Second Voice To Parliament. It's quite unnecessary and so I will be voting 'No'.

[Wodjathefirst 1,545]

1 hour ago, KLV said:

Straight out of Peter Dutton’s mouth 

And echoed in Murdoch tabloids and Fox News of course …….(surprise, surprise)

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 9,104]

47 minutes ago, Cheap Seats said:

 I agree 100%.

I don't disagree with the decision, I was merely stating that trolls will happen regardless of the forum, but I can understand why organisation would want to control the narrative of they are attached to.

The issue for me isn't stopping a forum or trying to limit  stupidity or even the bigger debate about politics and sport. There is always a risk for every organisation making declarations and splitting the supporter base 

I mean now oes the MFC support social housing issues, why stop at one issue? We all support freedom for Ukraine ( I assume) why not declare our allegiance to Ukraine thought the MFC as well?

personally I'm sure you support Ukraine as well. But do U actually know what support china gives to Russia. China hasn't imposed economic sanctions. Why is no one kicking w fuse about that? You are clearly still going to buy Chinese products, so do you really support Ukraine? 

Anyway all that [censored] aside the issue for me is that freedom is the right to express yourself, the consequences for those actions happen after the event not before.

I know we all love political rhetoric so I'll leave it there

As an asides the MFC does throw it's support behind a bunch of other social issues and causes for instance ANZAC day eve, the Pink Lady game, Fight MND, Reach Youth, depression and mental health awareness amoung others I'm sure.

While the club doesn't get involved in support for Ukraine, I think that's an issue that's significantly more remote from our supporter base than the other issues at hand, although I couldn't see that the club would take a stance anything other than being for Ukraine.  If you are going to single out China as sitting on the sidelines of this issue, then there are also a bunch of other major nations in that category too.  If anything China has at least outwardly tried to broker a peace deal between the two parties, not that I'm necessarily convinced that is it is a fair, neutral or genuine attempt.

I think some key reasons why the MFC has chosen to support this above other causes such as Ukraine, is to walk in solidarity with the numerous past and present indigenous players, staff and the broader indigenous people of Australia and I personally whole heartedly both support that and believe it to be a fair and reasonable position to take.

[rpfc 24,338]

7 minutes ago, Flag 2021 said:

In a 1967 referendum Australians voted overwhelmingly to remove racism from the constitution and empower aboriginal people with the right to vote.

Until 1967 they did not have the right to vote. Prior to 1967 the word 'race' was in the wording of our constitution  and was, in this rewording ,expunged.

This upcoming referendum seeks to return race into the constitution. The aboriginal has, currently the same electoral franchise as anybody else in this country - that is, the right to cast a vote.

What is being proposed now is, effectively, a Second Voice To Parliament. It's quite unnecessary and so I will be voting 'No'.

https://www.abc.net.au/rightwrongs/

You might enjoy this resource on what did and didn’t happen for indigenous Australians after ‘67.

[Little Goffy 9,945]

19 hours ago, Cheap Seats said:

 

Go check out what Hitler and Stalin did

Your posturing is utterly odious. Take a good hard look at yourself.

[Gawndy the Great 4,837]

1 hour ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

My dad was an avid amature athletics compeditor and enthusiast around Peter's time always impressioned this story/event on me.

Sport is so great at uniting people of different cultures and backgrounds to come together in the true spirit of sportsmanship, that when it is combined with great humanitarian and social rights causes it enhances both.

 

Winning an Olympic silver medal in the 200m for Australia is a huge achievement.  Peter Norman was an awsome athlete in his own right, but it's because of his moral courage that I personally rate and admire him above many other prominent Australian sportsman of my lifetime.

 

Courtesy of Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Norman

After the 200 metres final, the three athletes went to the medal podium for their medals to be presented by David Cecil, 6th Marquess of Exeter. On the podium, during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner", Smith and Carlos famously joined in a Black Power salute. This salute was later described in Tommie Smith's autobiography as a human rights salute, not a Black Power salute.

Norman wore a badge on the podium in support of the Olympic Project for Human Rights (OPHR). After the final, Carlos and Smith had told Norman what they were planning to do during the ceremony. As journalist Martin Flanagan wrote: "They asked Norman if he believed in human rights. He said he did. They asked him if he believed in God. Norman, who came from a Salvation Army background, said he believed strongly in God. We knew that what we were going to do was far greater than any athletic feat. He said, 'I'll stand with you'. Carlos said he expected to see fear in Norman's eyes. He didn't; 'I saw love'." On the way to the medal ceremony, Norman saw the OPHR badge being worn by Paul Hoffman, a white member of the US rowing team, and asked him if he could wear it. It was Norman who suggested that Smith and Carlos share the black gloves used in their salute, after Carlos left his pair at the Olympic Village. This is the reason for Smith raising his right fist, while Carlos raised his left.

Treatment between 1968–1972

After the salute, Norman's career suffered greatly. A 2012 CNN profile said that "he returned home to Australia a pariah, suffering unofficial sanction and ridicule as the Black Power salute's forgotten man. He never ran in the Olympics again." Commentators say he was not selected for the Olympic Games in Munich in 1972 despite recording qualifying times, and was not welcomed even 32 years later at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney. Carlos later stated that "If we [Carlos and Smith] were getting beat up, Peter was facing an entire country and suffering alone."

That is terrible!  This man ought to be celebrated. Thanks for sharing.

[DubDee 16,208]

im beginning to understand why comments are disabled on this topic

[Fanatique Demon 1,892]

3 hours ago, rpfc said:

God knows the Australian constitution is a sacred document that has always been above racist and divisive language. 

If that were true, why did we need to amend it in 1962 to allow aborigines to vote? Or in 1967 to even count them in our population?

[FearTheBeard 535]

The wonderful thing with Democracy is that every person who is going to vote "yes" or "no" has perfectly reasonable reasons to do so. Personally, I think our club in particular needs to tread carefully as our supporter base has a large mass of conservative members. The turning off of posts really irks me because the world really has become extremely soft when people give an opinion that "isn't woke enough" for media outlets. I am not talking about blatant trolling but simply the other side of an argument where people are entitled to disagree. I suspect MFC knows that it will receive backlash for this (just look at the posts where it talks about changing the name to Narrm) and just wants to avoid it. 

Good on the club for making a stand, it is their right to do so, just like it will be any person's to say no. And honestly, it really has no impact on any of our lives, my seat at the MCG will still be there tomorrow and the club will still wear red and blue. Maybe the good old saying of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" is more relevant than ever now.

Go Dees - love the club always.

 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 9,104]

2 hours ago, Fanatique Demon said:

If that were true, why did we need to amend it in 1962 to allow aborigines to vote? Or in 1967 to even count them in our population?

I think there was some sarcasm intended in rpfc's comment there.

[rpfc 24,338]

5 hours ago, Fanatique Demon said:

If that were true, why did we need to amend it in 1962 to allow aborigines to vote? Or in 1967 to even count them in our population?

Mate the cough…?

The cough!

[dees189227 8,493]

I don't care how we vote on this. I just want our forward line to get sorted out, for us to get back to winning consistently and for Clayton's hamstring to repair quickly 

[rpfc 24,338]

6 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

That is terrible!  This man ought to be celebrated. Thanks for sharing.

But, but, but… he mixed sport with politics.

The politics was the degradation of the rights of black people in the supposed beacon of freedom -the USA, and manifested in an act of congress on civil rights, and the lionisation of a man who had a dream.

But it was politics nevertheless…

Now let’s talk about apartheid and why it’s not worth a boycott of cricket games.

 

(cough)

[rpfc 24,338]

2 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

I don't care how we vote on this. I just want our forward line to get sorted out, for us to get back to winning consistently and for Clayton's hamstring to repair quickly 

Are you concerned the press release is distracting Greg Stafford from sorting out the forward structure? 

Or you just genuinely don’t care what the club thinks?

[leave it to deever 10,349]

11 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Tell that to Eagles fans.

Now that was entertaining. 

[leave it to deever 10,349]

18 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

My dad was an avid amatTx vwry muchure athletics compeditor and enthusiast around Peter's time always impressioned this story/event on me.

Sport is so great at uniting people of different cultures and backgrounds to come together in the true spirit of sportsmanship, that when it is combined with great humanitarian and social rights causes it enhances both.

 

Winning an Olympic silver medal in the 200m for Australia is a huge achievement.  Peter Norman was an awsome athlete in his own right, but it's because of his moral courage that I personally rate and admire him above many other prominent Australian sportsman of my lifetime.

 

Courtesy of Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Norman

After the 200 metres final, the three athletes went to the medal podium for their medals to be presented by David Cecil, 6th Marquess of Exeter. On the podium, during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner", Smith and Carlos famously joined in a Black Power salute. This salute was later described in Tommie Smith's autobiography as a human rights salute, not a Black Power salute.

Norman wore a badge on the podium in support of the Olympic Project for Human Rights (OPHR). After the final, Carlos and Smith had told Norman what they were planning to do during the ceremony. As journalist Martin Flanagan wrote: "They asked Norman if he believed in human rights. He said he did. They asked him if he believed in God. Norman, who came from a Salvation Army background, said he believed strongly in God. We knew that what we were going to do was far greater than any athletic feat. He said, 'I'll stand with you'. Carlos said he expected to see fear in Norman's eyes. He didn't; 'I saw love'." On the way to the medal ceremony, Norman saw the OPHR badge being worn by Paul Hoffman, a white member of the US rowing team, and asked him if he could wear it. It was Norman who suggested that Smith and Carlos share the black gloves used in their salute, after Carlos left his pair at the Olympic Village. This is the reason for Smith raising his right fist, while Carlos raised his left.

Treatment between 1968–1972

After the salute, Norman's career suffered greatly. A 2012 CNN profile said that "he returned home to Australia a pariah, suffering unofficial sanction and ridicule as the Black Power salute's forgotten man. He never ran in the Olympics again." Commentators say he was not selected for the Olympic Games in Munich in 1972 despite recording qualifying times, and was not welcomed even 32 years later at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney. Carlos later stated that "If we [Carlos and Smith] were getting beat up, Peter was facing an entire country and suffering alone."

Thanks very much for this Rbg. I had never heard of this indivual before. A great man but sad ending.

[Bitter but optimistic 18,923]

Just skimmed through this thread while breaking my fast.

This lead me to a very clear decision. That being -

If ever, there was a thread, argument, debate etc on Demonland that I would have to be drawn over hot coals to engage in - it is this one.

Signing out.

[layzie 21,239]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Democracy only works when opinions are informed. Otherwise it is just people pushing their own prejudices.

Well it certainly works a lot better when opinions are informed. 

Imagine a world where the news host throws to a reporter who claims it is raining today when there are blue skies everywhere.