TRAINING: Friday 13th January 2023

[monoccular 16,017]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:48 PM, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I’ll be really disappointed if Salem falls into that category you’ve listed below re: players that may end up being Casey regulars.

Salem’s too good a player and has too good a skill set to not be automatic best 22 as opposed to your Tomlinson’s, Harmes’s, Hibberds, Rivers’s etc…

 

On 1/15/2023 at 7:28 AM, Kent said:

was automatic selection last season and was well off the pace Really needs to show he still has it in the preseason

 

 

On 1/15/2023 at 9:42 AM, 58er said:

You knew he carried injuries from Round 1 don't you?  Like about 7/8 who played below par for half the season Salo was never given a chance to get yo full fitness. He will star again in 2023. 

I think you are really on the same page expressed differently.

Few would argue that a fit Salam would not be one of the first choses - that is a fit Salem.

Nobody should be picked, automatically or otherwise if they are not for whatever reason fit for cause.  I hope we have learned that the hard way 2022.

[58er 5,593]

2 hours ago, daisycutter said:

maybe you should also question griffith's role?

Good point but I rather think it was selection bias done how and that Goody especially found it hard to move on from the 23 that took us to the Flag in 2021.

Guess 2023 might reveal a thing or two. 

[daisycutter 28,459]

2 hours ago, 58er said:

Good point but I rather think it was selection bias done how and that Goody especially found it hard to move on from the 23 that took us to the Flag in 2021.

Guess 2023 might reveal a thing or two. 

i don't doubt that...

but i wonder what influence griffiths had on fitness suitability of players coming back from injury layoffs and other players playing with obvious niggles.  coach (and selection committee)  has to listen to fitness staff when deciding to play such players.  i guess we will never know how those conversations went.

[bing181 8,149]

3 hours ago, 58er said:

Good point but I rather think it was selection bias done how and that Goody especially found it hard to move on from the 23 that took us to the Flag in 2021.

People keep saying this, but move on to who? By his own admission, JVR couldn't even run out a game at Casey, yet alone in the firsts. Howes looks likely but had a long term injury. Turner got a run, but then concussion + other injuries kept him out. etc. etc.The idea that we could have gone deeper in the finals playing the likes of Baker or Dunstan is just ...

[binman 37,793]

14 hours ago, bing181 said:

People keep saying this, but move on to who? By his own admission, JVR couldn't even run out a game at Casey, yet alone in the firsts. Howes looks likely but had a long term injury. Turner got a run, but then concussion + other injuries kept him out. etc. etc.The idea that we could have gone deeper in the finals playing the likes of Baker or Dunstan is just ...

All good points. 

I think i recall a comment from someone at the club that JVR was close to selection for the finals. 

But really Chandler, who i tgought seserved a shot on form, and Bedford were really the only players that could have come up. Maybe Tomlinson too I guess.

But who would of those 3 players replaced?  

Bedford and Chandler would have been fighting for much the same roles - nibbler and spargo, neither of whom needed a chop out to freshen up.

As nibblers finish in tbe bluey suggests he was  zero risk of being dropped. Spargs perhaps more of a chance of being dropped, but swapping him for Bedford or Chandler wouldn't have moved the needle much.

Tomlinson would have had to replace a tall defender at the bisiness end and even though Lever looked hampered at times that wasnt going go happen - though I do wonder if he could  have been played forward.

As you say, disco got a shot, and was injured.

Laurie never made a compelling case and noone else was banging the door down. 

And to be fair to goody, he dropped rivers and bowey and stuck with Hunt, and then later in the year selected melksham.

 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

14 hours ago, bing181 said:

The idea that we could have gone deeper in the finals playing the likes of Baker or Dunstan is just ...

No one has suggested that, and most aren't talking about changing the team in the finals, more about gradually managing during the year.

Gawn, Salem, Lever, Jackson, Brown and more clearly weren't right during the year. Literally no one has said drop them all for finals and bring in Dunstan and Baker. During the season however, it's pretty obvious it would have served us better to have gotten Brown right, bring in JVR or Weid really we would have not lost anything given how hampered and out of form Brown was. Rotate the rest through for rests, that's the whole point in having more than 22 players on the list. Take out one of Gawn or Jackson and bring in Weid, take out Lever and bring in Tomlinson (or Turner pre-injury), Bowey for Salem etc etc, there were so many options there that could have meant more rotation of players.

I mean, if we weren't playing banged up players then what's the reason for our season falling in a heap? Yes, the whole 'Goody's faves' thing gets overdone, and not a season goes by without selection whinges from Demonland, but the management of the players and failure to rotate them when we had the chance is so obviously the reason for our failure in finals and I hope lessons have been learned and the balance is better this year if we go through a similar situation.

 

[Kent 2,574]

6 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

No one has suggested that, and most aren't talking about changing the team in the finals, more about gradually managing during the year.

Gawn, Salem, Lever, Jackson, Brown and more clearly weren't right during the year. Literally no one has said drop them all for finals and bring in Dunstan and Baker. During the season however, it's pretty obvious it would have served us better to have gotten Brown right, bring in JVR or Weid really we would have not lost anything given how hampered and out of form Brown was. Rotate the rest through for rests, that's the whole point in having more than 22 players on the list. Take out one of Gawn or Jackson and bring in Weid, take out Lever and bring in Tomlinson (or Turner pre-injury), Bowey for Salem etc etc, there were so many options there that could have meant more rotation of players.

I mean, if we weren't playing banged up players then what's the reason for our season falling in a heap? Yes, the whole 'Goody's faves' thing gets overdone, and not a season goes by without selection whinges from Demonland, but the management of the players and failure to rotate them when we had the chance is so obviously the reason for our failure in finals and I hope lessons have been learned and the balance is better this year if we go through a similar situation.

 

Great Post Lord Agree entirely!

[dazzledavey36 48,647]

44 minutes ago, binman said:

All good points. 

I think i recall a comment from someone at the club that JVR was close to selection for the finals. 

But really Chandler, who i tgought seserved a shot on form, and Bedford were really the only players that could have come up. Maybe Tomlinson too I guess.

But who would of those 3 players replaced?  

Bedford and Chandler would have been fighting for much the same roles - nibbler and spargo, neither of whom needed a chop out to freshen up.

As nibblers finish in tbe bluey suggests he was  zero risk of being dropped. Spargs perhaps more of a chance of being dropped, but swapping him for Bedford or Chandler wouldn't have moved the needle much.

Tomlinson would have had to replace a tall defender at the bisiness end and even though Lever looked hampered at times that wasnt going go happen - though I do wonder if he could  have been played forward.

As you say, disco got a shot, and was injured.

Laurie never made a compelling case and noone else was banging the door down. 

And to be fair to goody, he dropped rivers and bowey and stuck with Hunt, and then later in the year selected melksham.

 

I think Spargo needs a big 2023. 

He's the most vulnerable out of the forwards especially as Laurie and Chandler are breathing down his neck pretty closely.

Personally thought he was disappointing last year alongside a few others as well.

[binman 37,793]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I think Spargo needs a big 2023. 

He's the most vulnerable out of the forwards especially as Laurie and Chandler are breathing down his neck pretty closely.

Personally thought he was disappointing last year alongside a few others as well.

It's hard to get a handle on his specific role, which appeared to be almost a defensive high half forward role.

So its a hard to assess sparg's form in 2022. 

But I totally agree Chandler and Laurie will be competitors for his spot 

I have a feeling Laurie might be the main competitor as he has tbe kicking skills to match spargo's kicks inside 50 (a kpi for him no doubt). And they played him back at Casey a bit  I sdsume to sharpen up his defensive skills.

I hope they use Chandler in a more pure small forward, offensive role. He would work well in tandem with kossie. Like kozzie, super hard at it, a neat enough kick and good pace.

[Neil Crompton 4,676]

I’m surprised at the continual talk of Laurie being a likely contender for a senior spot. He would need to have shown massive improvement at Casey this year before I’d consider him a contender. I don’t think he has shown anything to date at Casey to warrant this chat. Chandler is a mile ahead at this stage imv.

[58er 5,593]

22 hours ago, daisycutter said:

i don't doubt that...

but i wonder what influence griffiths had on fitness suitability of players coming back from injury layoffs and other players playing with obvious niggles.  coach (and selection committee)  has to listen to fitness staff when deciding to play such players.  i guess we will never know how those conversations went.

The effect Griffith had on selection compared to the Goody and SCttee "bias" towards 2021 premiership encumbants should ideally be a book on the same page. 

But  any person who can glee from the outcomes in 2022 would clearly have to believe in Santa Clause. Very little promotions on merit all season were commonplace and as acknowledged about HALF our list were either banged up or carrying injuries that were more than slight niggles in our 2 Finals matches. (Or the overload effect was still in the group). Unlikely but who really knows. 

The selection enigmas pretty much all season were that if a player from 2021 was out injured his place was given only for that time of injury.
 

Backs Tommo, J.Smith Or a rotation of Hibbo Hunt and Bowey with the May QB replacement a daring experiment of Disco being a disaster unfortunately and the most major change attempted. Lever Salem and J. Smith were injured underdone or continued with fitness issues for a lengthy part of the season. 

Mids  Only Dunstan was really involved and he rarely played a bad game but is a defensive mid without outstanding skills although is persistent and honest but we have two or three of those playing ahead in the middle who can be game changers on occasions. 

Forwards  Most changes should have occurred here with BBB ANB Spargs Jacko all underwhelming seasons and Gawny no goals in last few rounds plus Tmac out injured since end of May.

It was mainly deck chairs on the Titanic here snd Chandler and Bedford definitely not tried enough and JVR a 2023 candidate on heat. Melky was promoted on average form to be honest but was a match winning heroes vs Blues and sort of handy otherwise playing a defensive role and being largely undersized.  I wonder if JVR was selected in place or Petty moved at least a quarter per game would history be the same. Our last half with being overrun MAY not have occurred if we had "slightly inferior" players ( changes) but goers ALL day in lieu of fast starts to half time would have got us over the line and to the Prelim Final which I have no doubt Geelong would have returned our 83 pt demolition of 2021. 

At least we could have bleated like Scott sbout being banged up. 

Yes Binman has posted the opposite view that virtually no one deserved promotion ( we only lost ONE Casey game ) and the Dees frequently had two thirds or more of the team at Casey all year most contributing but not enough to look like AFL replacements to improve the team.

The folly  of not making some changes is that you must have a go sometimes and be creative and adventurous. This ha s the effects of no one at this stage than JVR and Bowey and Chandler bring looked upon as improvements for 2023 thank goodness for Brodee Lachie and Schachee!

I like 90% of Fees fans are bullish and excited about 2023 as there is decidedly much more positivity in our fan base than with some scribes or " experts", which after all is immaterial both ways but much better for the excitement of new players and maybe a game plan tweak the faithful are expecting. 

Hard to see us not in the Top4 and in no way would it surprise me if we play Geelong or another improved team say Lions this year on the last day of September. 

[Fat Tony 4,370]

2 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

I’m surprised at the continual talk of Laurie being a likely contender for a senior spot. He would need to have shown massive improvement at Casey this year before I’d consider him a contender. I don’t think he has shown anything to date at Casey to warrant this chat. Chandler is a mile ahead at this stage imv.

People think because Laurie was a first round pick that he is likely to make it. But they ignore the fact that he averaged 8.3 disposals, 2 tackles and kicked just 1 goal in the VFL finals series (3 games).

Sure he is a decent skilled player but he needs to average 23-25 per game at VFL level to be in the picture.

[bing181 8,149]

11 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

the management of the players and failure to rotate them when we had the chance is so obviously the reason for our failure in finals

It's actually not obvious at all, it's conjecture. There could be (and are) any number of reasons for our failures at the end of the season, many of which we're not even aware of.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

55 minutes ago, bing181 said:

It's actually not obvious at all, it's conjecture. There could be (and are) any number of reasons for our failures at the end of the season, many of which we're not even aware of.

Like what? What would you suggest is more likely the reason?

[rjay 23,867]

5 hours ago, 58er said:

Yes Binman has posted the opposite view that virtually no one deserved promotion ( we only lost ONE Casey game ) and the Dees frequently had two thirds or more of the team at Casey all year most contributing but not enough to look like AFL replacements to improve the team.

There really weren't any walk up starts at Casey.

To win a VFL flag you generally have a solid core of senior players & some promising kids in development.

We had Brown, Baker, Weed, Dunstan, Tommo, Smith, Buntine, Munro, White & Melk...the AFL listed were all in the break glass in case of emergency category. Apart from Melk those who got a run hardly fired a shot when played at AFL level.

Of our younger brigade only Chandler & Bedford were pushing. Bedford was sub in a million games. Neither would have made a huge difference. Disco was stiff with injury.

Bowey ran into form too late in the season, but he is the one that could have made a difference.

JVR wasn't ready. Wishing was never going to make it so...the club did the right thing long term in holding him back.

The beauty of the VFL flag was twofold 1. It rewarded some loyal servants & 2. It gave the developing younger brigade a taste of success.

edit: so I reckon '@binman' was spot on.

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by rjay

[Lord Nev 13,511]

23 minutes ago, rjay said:

There really weren't any walk up starts at Casey.

Neither would have made a huge difference.

But we didn't need 'walk up starts' or player to 'make a huge difference' we just needed good enough role players to allow us to manage injured players and compliment our 'difference makers' in players like Petracca, Oliver, May etc etc..

23 minutes ago, rjay said:

We had Brown, Baker, Weed, Dunstan, Tommo, Smith, Buntine, Munro, White & Melk...the AFL listed were all in the break glass in case of emergency category.

Exactly. We had depth there that would have allowed us to manage players better.

23 minutes ago, rjay said:

Of our younger brigade only Chandler & Bedford were pushing.

That doesn't seem correct. Howes was in line to debut before being unlucky with injury (I believe Richo confirmed this at one stage), JVR was obviously extremely close to selection given Goody talked about it, Laurie would have been around the mark as would have a few others given they were emergencies a few times if I recall correctly.

23 minutes ago, rjay said:

JVR wasn't ready. Wishing was never going to make it so...the club did the right thing long term in holding him back.

He didn't need to come in and tear a game apart, he was just needed to come in and play a role given TMac was injured, Jackson was sore and out of form and Brown was on one leg, if that, and just nowhere near it. We already have the core talent, I don't understand why there seems to be this angle of having young/VFL players come in and 'make a huge difference'.

Find it strange you seem to be labeling all these as correct decisions when we fell apart at the end of the year and went out in straight sets.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Lord Nev

[Deemania since 56 6,122]

On 1/14/2023 at 2:03 PM, kev martin said:

Our list is so strong and runs deep.

Hoping for Goody to give quite a few of them a run.

Good summary, km. Depth is actually astounding and it really does include highly positive 'form improvements & developments' that put us in somewhat of a luxury cruise - provided injuries are minimal, and selectors provide those necessary opportunities where warranted.

[58er 5,593]

11 hours ago, rjay said:

There really weren't any walk up starts at Casey.

To win a VFL flag you generally have a solid core of senior players & some promising kids in development.

We had Brown, Baker, Weed, Dunstan, Tommo, Smith, Buntine, Munro, White & Melk...the AFL listed were all in the break glass in case of emergency category. Apart from Melk those who got a run hardly fired a shot when played at AFL level.

Of our younger brigade only Chandler & Bedford were pushing. Bedford was sub in a million games. Neither would have made a huge difference. Disco was stiff with injury.

Bowey ran into form too late in the season, but he is the one that could have made a difference.

JVR wasn't ready. Wishing was never going to make it so...the club did the right thing long term in holding him back.

The beauty of the VFL flag was twofold 1. It rewarded some loyal servants & 2. It gave the developing younger brigade a taste of success.

edit: so I reckon '@binman' was spot on.

 

Rjay yes it's the easiest answer no one was ready but I believe that was a cop out and established that in my post, 

Not one player seemed to be at Casey as a possible recruit to be given a real chance to mdjd the grade even when we played unfit players and were fading in third and fourth quarters. 

Surely a player of equal ability on form who was fit eg Chandler over say ANB or Spargs could have been tried.  No attempt was made to solve the problem and to do nothing was not to attempt change!!! 

Thst why we didn't have any players improve for the AFL by the season end except forJVR. 

We need st least 6 players this year to Make  up for. 

[FarNorthernD 5,839]

11 hours ago, rjay said:

…

JVR wasn't ready. Wishing was never going to make it so...the club did the right thing long term in holding him back.

The beauty of the VFL flag was twofold 1. It rewarded some loyal servants & 2. It gave the developing younger brigade a taste of success.

edit: so I reckon '@binman' was spot on.

 

In bit of a sliding doors moment JVR would have come into the side if Brown didn’t come back from ‘knee soreness’ in Rnd 20. This was from one of the coaches 

[rjay 23,867]

13 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

But we didn't need 'walk up starts' or player to 'make a huge difference' we just needed good enough role players to allow us to manage injured players and compliment our 'difference makers' in players like Petracca, Oliver, May etc etc..

Exactly. We had depth there that would have allowed us to manage players better.

That doesn't seem correct. Howes was in line to debut before being unlucky with injury (I believe Richo confirmed this at one stage), JVR was obviously extremely close to selection given Goody talked about it, Laurie would have been around the mark as would have a few others given they were emergencies a few times if I recall correctly.

He didn't need to come in and tear a game apart, he was just needed to come in and play a role given TMac was injured, Jackson was sore and out of form and Brown was on one leg, if that, and just nowhere near it. We already have the core talent, I don't understand why there seems to be this angle of having young/VFL players come in and 'make a huge difference'.

Find it strange you seem to be labeling all these as correct decisions when we fell apart at the end of the year and went out in straight sets.

 

1 hour ago, 58er said:

Rjay yes it's the easiest answer no one was ready but I believe that was a cop out and established that in my post, 

Not one player seemed to be at Casey as a possible recruit to be given a real chance to mdjd the grade even when we played unfit players and were fading in third and fourth quarters. 

Surely a player of equal ability on form who was fit eg Chandler over say ANB or Spargs could have been tried.  No attempt was made to solve the problem and to do nothing was not to attempt change!!! 

Thst why we didn't have any players improve for the AFL by the season end except forJVR. 

We need st least 6 players this year to Make  up for. 

I think you are both wrong.

The FD has a much better idea of who is equiped to play.

On that senior list Brown, Baker, Weed, Dunstan, Tommo, Smith, & Melk, 3 have gone, one (Tommo) we couldn't move on and another (Smith) always injured.

So Dunstan and Melk who were both used.

Obviously our depth wasn't as good (or ready) as a lot here thought.

As for mentioning Howes "Nev'...I don't get your point, he was injured.

...and they would likely have pulled the trigger on him as they did with disco if he wasn't.

So they weren't averse to playing kids but the kids had to be ready to go.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

22 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think you are both wrong.

The FD has a much better idea of who is equiped to play.

I don't think anyone has said they know better than the footy dept, but if you're happy with us falling apart as the year went on and getting bundled out in straight sets than you had lower expectations for 2022 than me.

22 minutes ago, rjay said:

On that senior list Brown, Baker, Weed, Dunstan, Tommo, Smith, & Melk, 3 have gone, one (Tommo) we couldn't move on and another (Smith) always injured.

 So? Hunt is gone too but we still played him.

22 minutes ago, rjay said:

As for mentioning Howes "Nev'...I don't get your point, he was injured.

...and they would likely have pulled the trigger on him as they did with disco if he wasn't.

 That's the point. You said only Bedford and Chandler were pushing for selection, that seems incorrect given the facts on who was listed in the emergencies, who was being talked about by the coaches and the fact Howes was inline to play the week he got injured.

22 minutes ago, rjay said:

So they weren't averse to playing kids but the kids had to be ready to go.

 Disagree. You seem to be one of the very very few here who think there were no issues with our management and selection last year. For mine, the fact we fell apart in the later part of the year was due to those factors. From my perspective, the issue was about managing our sore and injured players and perhaps trying to 'do a 2021' with the management when our injury situation and preparation were different to the previous year. It's not about blooding young players or bringing in someone who's banging the door down, it's about using the depth on your list to sufficiently fulfill our role based system in a way that allows our best players to perform at their capacity for more of the year and at key times. Now that seems to be where we disagree, which is fine, but again, given how our year played out I find it strange you can be so firm with your "you are both wrong".

Edited January 18, 2023 by Lord Nev

[58er 5,593]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

I don't think anyone has said they know better than the footy dept, but if you're happy with us falling apart as the year went on and getting bundled out in straight sets than you had lower expectations for 2022 than me.

 So? Hunt is gone too but we still played him.

 That's the point. You said only Bedford and Chandler were pushing for selection, that seems incorrect given the facts on who was listed in the emergencies, who was being talked about by the coaches and the fact Howes was inline to play the week he got injured.

 Disagree. You seem to be one of the very very few here who think there were no issues with our management and selection last year. For mine, the fact we fell apart in the later part of the year was due to those factors. From my perspective, the issue was about managing our sore and injured players and perhaps trying to 'do a 2021' with the management when our injury situation and preparation were different to the previous year. It's not about blooding young players or bringing in someone who's banging the door down, it's about using the depth on your list to sufficiently fulfill our role based system in a way that allows our best players to perform at their capacity for more of the year and at key times. Now that seems to be where we disagree, which is fine, but again, given how our year played out I find it strange you can be so firm with your "you are both wrong".

Totally agree with you Lord Nev. 

To try nothing was admitting defeat really and it came back to bite us in September. 

[rjay 23,867]

2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

I don't think anyone has said they know better than the footy dept

You have consistently said you do...

[Stiff Arm 4,410]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:27 AM, Lord Nev said:

the management of the players and failure to rotate them when we had the chance is so obviously the reason for our failure in finals

 

2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

I don't think anyone has said they know better than the footy dept,

Huh???

[rjay 23,867]

3 facepalms to 1 '@Lord Nev'...that's hardly fair.