Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

So many people quick to jump to the aid of alleged racists on this site lately.

[BoBo 2,016]

43 minutes ago, ding said:

Yep, PM me the link, i will be happy to read it.

BTW we were not talking about why Indigenous Aussies have a distrust of police, we were clearly discussing RPFC's suggestion that white Ex-Coppers couldnt possibly give them a fair hearing. Do you believe that is the case?

https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Publications/BB/bb41.pdf

 

 

https://www.ibac.vic.gov.au/media-releases/article/ibac-audit-highlights-inadequacies-in-victoria-police's-handling-of-complaints-by-aboriginal-people

 

 

https://hir.harvard.edu/police-violence-australia-aboriginals/amp/

Here’s a few. I recognise that the first two are VERY long, so I included the last one that is a synthesis of criminological findings as an explanation. 

————————————————————————

You’ve said to me:

‘We we’re clearly discussing RPFC’s suggestion that white Ex-coppers couldn’t possibly give them a fair hearing’

And:

‘Are you suggesting all of our prosecutors, judges and juries are racist too?.... ALL of them? 

This garbage needs to stop.’

To answer your question about whether I think ex-white police officers could give indigenous Australians a fair hearing, the data (to which I’ve provided in the links) suggests that there is an huge implicit bias within the entire justice system.

It isn’t about any one ( or five) individuals, it is at systemic level. 
 

Given this clear evidence of bias that’s is endemic within the justice system, it isn’t entirely outrageous to suggest having an integrity board that is filled with ex-members of a state apparatus that again, clearly has bias issues, might not be a good idea. Doesn’t make them bad people, but what it has the capacity to do, is allow these same systemic biases to replicate themselves. 
 

So I don’t know if they could or couldn’t give a fair hearing. Nobody does. The five members are probably perfectly fine people. 
 

However, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have such a high representation of people from a state apparatus that is very, VERY, problematic when it comes to just outcomes for indigenous Australians, in and of itself. 
 

I arrive at this position exclusively from what the data about this institution says. It’s not a flippant position. 

[BoBo 2,016]

@ding

 

Oh shoot, I misread for me to PM you the links, my apologies. Not on purpose. 

[ding 5,126]

1 minute ago, BoBo said:

@ding

 

Oh shoot, I misread for me to PM you the links, my apologies. Not on purpose. 

All good, no harm done. Happy to read your links.

 

(i will pm you my opinions when i have read them so you know i have not just paid lip-service to your links)

Edited September 21, 2022 by ding

[Demonland 64,387]

 

[DubDee 20,332]

10 minutes ago, ding said:

Thats your retort?... "I know you are but what am i"........

How childish.

If I was a zealot I would have put a lot more effort into my retort. Perhaps even went on a fanatical rant like yourself…

[ding 5,126]

1 minute ago, rpfc said:

You know, I actually like you as a poster and your sense of humour is very similar to mine. I value your posts and I hope they aren’t deleted. 

But I can’t agree with you on this and certainly not where your brother is trying to define my argument for me.

You can understand and ‘pull the fat back on your ears’ if you want to, or you can just argue and dismiss.

We can leave it there if we are getting too odorous and repetitive but I will stand by my opinion that the AFL Integrity Unit needs to more reflective of the wider football community if it wants to earn the trust of those it protects and serves.

rpfc out/

RPFC, i absolutely agree with you on this point. My argument was the (imo fairly clear) insinuation that white ex-police couldnt give a fair hearing.

 

If that was not your point maybe a clarification might help.

[McQueen 17,862]

3 hours ago, old dee said:

I will be surprised if much happens in that space. The largest number of club supporters probably don’t care. It might alter a little from one club to another but not a lot in my view. Did the pies numbers drop? Not from my memory. 

I’ve lost my glasses old mate and I can barely read so sorry I’ll reply tomorrow

 

(Thanks Siri)

[rpfc 27,386]

3 minutes ago, ding said:

RPFC, i absolutely agree with you on this point. My argument was the (imo fairly clear) insinuation that white ex-police couldnt give a fair hearing.

 

If that was not your point maybe a clarification might help.

You may have thought it was fairly clear because my argument and what you thought my argument was are two sides of a coin. 

As in, the remedy to the perception that the AFL Integrity Unit cannot help the broader footy community is to have it be more reflective of that community. And whether that perception is reality or not is kind of beside the point.

My best mate is a cop and I love him and he is a great person but his experiences have changed his views when it comes to Indigenous and African members of the community. He is quick to judge and assume and I can see him doing his job well if he had someone of those backgrounds to assist but I can see them be guarded with the way he talks about their community and their proclivities. Anyway, we are getting way off track. Happy to chat in the grey though - that’s where the answers are.

[Great Northern Summer 685]

2 hours ago, layzie said:

Andy Maher made an excellent point. Why didn't Clarko take the call? He could have nipped this all in the bud I'd it was not true and demand the story not to be printed or else.

If he was put on the spot, he would have been foolish to take the call. Whether he is innocent or guilty, either way, he would have been best positioned after this happened to seek legal advice about how the handle the situation. I'm sure this is exactly what he did.

[BoBo 2,016]

1 hour ago, Cranky Franky said:

Agree extremely serious stuff but only allegations at this stage. We havent heard the other side of the story.

The size of the lynch mob is scary.

 

Is the lynch mob in the room with you now Cranky?

[layzie 28,474]

8 minutes ago, Glorious Day said:

If he was put on the spot, he would have been foolish to take the call. Whether he is innocent or guilty, either way, he would have been best positioned after this happened to seek legal advice about how the handle the situation. I'm sure this is exactly what he did.

No i don't agree. If he was put on the spot, he denies it, simple as that. Journos call coaches all the time and they answer them it's not unheard of. Or better still his manager could take it. They could have avoided the story going to print at very least and threaten legal action if it did.

Edited September 21, 2022 by layzie

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,267]

Sorry, I'm coming to this late as had a busy day at work... A lot of catching up to do...

Allegations aside, can someone confirm... Is the basis of the story by ABC based on the reporters discussion with contributors to the Hawthorn investigation? Or based on the report itself (being released or leaked)?

The reporting of the responses of those apparently accused doesn't make clear what they are responding to either...

[Great Northern Summer 685]

Just now, layzie said:

If he was put on the spot, he denies it. Simple as that. Journos call coaches all the time and they answer them it's not unheard of. They could have avoided the story going to print at very least and threaten legal action if it did.

Nothing he would have said would have stopped the article being printed. 

[BoBo 2,016]

5 minutes ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Sorry, I'm coming to this late as had a busy day at work... A lot of catching up to do...

Allegations aside, can someone confirm... Is the basis of the story by ABC based on the reporters discussion with contributors to the Hawthorn investigation? Or based on the report itself (being released or leaked)?

The reporting of the responses of those apparently accused doesn't make clear what they are responding to either...

The ABC report was interviews with 3 families involved in the report.

From the article:

‘Hawthorn had more than 20 First Nations players in the period of the review. Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families’

The report itself is apparently going to have more allegations.

 

[TheWiz 692]

5 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

I wonder what skeletons are in our closet in our treatment of indigenous players?  Didn't Davey, Wanaemirri, Jurrah (and maybe othres) have issues with Neeld? 

Wanaemirri didn't come back after 2011 and Jurrah lost his way.  Their departures may not in any way be connected to Neeld but there was some noise about his treatment of them at the time.  It leaked to the media and Davey had to publicly saw all was fine, nothing to see.

While we had the wonderful Jetta he was not the leader he was to become so his position at the time denied him a voice within the club that he later developed under Roos.

Luci, the Neeld/Davey allegations were completely false. Nothing was leaked. From memory Davey refuted this immediately once the one article was published and he was quite upset at the allegations.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/false-race-claim-leaves-afl-red-faced-as-davey-denies-involvement-20120403-1wb4j.html

Austin left after his fathers passing and his role in his community changed. Jurrah’s circumstances are well documented. It was good seeing him at Alice Springs supporting the club where no ill will was mentioned.

You’re asking fair questions under the topic, but be conscious of unfair conclusions and comments.

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,267]

3 minutes ago, BoBo said:

The ABC report was interviews with 3 families involved in the report.

From the article:

‘Hawthorn had more than 20 First Nations players in the period of the review. Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families’

The report itself is apparently going to have more allegations.

 

Be intersting to see the correlations between:

ABC Report (3 parties)

Hawthorn Report - if released (whatever the scope)

Independent AFL Investigation (presumably scope includes any/all or most parties)

[DemonWA 3,425]

Shocking and disgusting. If half of the accusations are true then they should cop worse bans than Hird and Co. Morally horrendous. 

Perhaps its seeing the world through red and blue glasses but our club has always employed good people and we should be proud of that 

[dees189227 10,700]

OPINIONAndrew Bolt

Both sides must be heard before we condemn Hawthorn

Alastair Clarkson and his team may seem to have been too brutal in chasing success but let’s hear their side before we dance on their heads and accuse them of racism.

And here is Andrew Bolt. Of course you cannot read it. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by dees189227

[BoBo 2,016]

27 minutes ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Be intersting to see the correlations between:

ABC Report (3 parties)

Hawthorn Report - if released (whatever the scope)

Independent AFL Investigation (presumably scope includes any/all or most parties)

Given that the abc report has redacted the real names of those mentioned in the abc article and that the initial report by the Hawks was purely about documenting the experiences of indigenous players and their time at the club… An AFL investigation without further testimony from those indigenous players involved without naming them is going to be untenable. 
 

I worry that players that were willing to speak in the initial internal club report will be intimidated out of adding/clarifying further if pressed. 
 

They clearly are uncomfortable/intimidated from being named which says a lot about the dynamics of the situation.

[layzie 28,474]

10 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

OPINIONAndrew Bolt

Both sides must be heard before we condemn Hawthorn

Alastair Clarkson and his team may seem to have been too brutal in chasing success but let’s hear their side before we dance on their heads and accuse them of racism.

And here is Andrew Bolt. Of course you cannot read it. 

Hate to say it but he's right, sort of.

[BoBo 2,016]

16 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

OPINIONAndrew Bolt

Both sides must be heard before we condemn Hawthorn

Alastair Clarkson and his team may seem to have been too brutal in chasing success but let’s hear their side before we dance on their heads and accuse them of racism.

And here is Andrew Bolt. Of course you cannot read it. 

Good thing a court has already heard his side and decided he’s a racist.

So please allow me to dance on his head and call him a racist.

Thanks for your redundantly obvious point Mr. Racist. 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

4 minutes ago, layzie said:

Hate to say it but he's right, sort of.

It's a typically disgraceful 'article' from this scumbag. Including things like:

"The ABC quotes three unidentified players at length, from the more than 20 indigenous players who were with Hawthorn when Alastair Clarkson was a premiership-winning coach, hailed as the best of modern times.

We do not know how typical their complaints are, and we are relying on the reporting of an ABC that has a strong race agenda."

He would be rubbing his hands together knowing he has weeks, maybe months, worth of outrage to farm for his continued employment.

 

[layzie 28,474]

1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

It's a typically disgraceful 'article' from this scumbag. Including things like:

"The ABC quotes three unidentified players at length, from the more than 20 indigenous players who were with Hawthorn when Alastair Clarkson was a premiership-winning coach, hailed as the best of modern times.

We do not know how typical their complaints are, and we are relying on the reporting of an ABC that has a strong race agenda."

He would be rubbing his hands together knowing he has weeks, maybe months, worth of outrage to farm for his continued employment.

 

Now that's the Bolt we know!

How can someone from Sky say the words 'ABC' and 'agenda' in the same sentence? 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

1 minute ago, layzie said:

How can someone from Sky say the words 'ABC' and 'agenda' in the same sentence? 

I think it's part of their contracts...