Simon says

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

I get that people are frustrated and disappointed right now, but if you think we didn’t try new tactics and structures through the second half of the year you weren’t watching very closely.

 Changing a method as drilled and dependent on positioning as ours mid season is very difficult. When we Implemented changes to put some speed on the ball, our defensive structures broke down behind the ball and we leaked goals.

 When we changed from 2 talls and a resting ruck to one tall and a defensive forward Brown became ineffective due to the blanketing he got from defenders. We should have been able to leverage the extra pressure forward to lock the ball in, and often we did, but our kicking inefficiency made that look like a fail also.

 We rotated a number of options through the second wing through the second half of the year but none of them really worked.

We tried plenty of things, mostly they fixed some things while breaking others. We will need to make a few changes to the team in the off season and rework our method thinking about all 3 phases of the game rather than just trying to fix the attacking  phase. I think Goody was saying loud and clear that he and the FD are on it.

[spirit of norm smith 12,840]

45 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

The blue print for how we might play next year is the recent Gabba game vs the Lions which was similar to how we played last year's GF:  win clearances, switch play from defence, quick overlap  ball movement down the wings, deep and centered entries into fwd 50.

I agree. I was at the Gabba amongst the cheer squad that night and it was amazing in the first half how we ran and kicked deep&centred footy for the forwards and not “cloud-bursters”. It was very attacking and we were on fire.  Goalkicking was also easier from a quick centred approach. It was the “power switch”that we thought was going to propel us in the finals. But sadly we reverted back. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by spirit of norm smith
O

[binman 37,793]

10 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

I get that people are frustrated and disappointed right now, but if you think we didn’t try new tactics and structures through the second half of the year you weren’t watching very closely.

 Changing a method as drilled and dependent on positioning as ours mid season is very difficult. When we Implemented changes to put some speed on the ball, our defensive structures broke down behind the ball and we leaked goals.

 When we changed from 2 talls and a resting ruck to one tall and a defensive forward Brown became ineffective due to the blanketing he got from defenders. We should have been able to leverage the extra pressure forward to lock the ball in, and often we did, but our kicking inefficiency made that look like a fail also.

 We rotated a number of options through the second wing through the second half of the year but none of them really worked.

We tried plenty of things, mostly they fixed some things while breaking others. We will need to make a few changes to the team in the off season and rework our method thinking about all 3 phases of the game rather than just trying to fix the attacking  phase. I think Goody was saying loud and clear that he and the FD 

Great post. 

The game plan and method we came into to the finals  with was significantly different to that used in 2021 and the first half of 2022. 

The last third of the season  really only the freo game 'looked' like a Melbourne game.

I suspect that change was equal part a response to what the opposition were doing better (both in terms of negating us and their model) and mitigation against our issues.

We played much more aggressively, particularly in first halves and as you suggest leaked goals as a result. 

In simple terms, the approach seemed to be get a big enough lead by half time and then hang on for dear life.

I reckon the biggest change was that we  stopped using tempo control. 

 

[Lucifers Hero 36,983]

29 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

I agree. I was at the Gabba amongst the cheer squad that night and it was amazing in the first half how we ran and kicked deep&centred footy for the forwards. It was very attacking and we were on fire.  Goalkicking was also easier from a quick centred approach. It was the “power switch”that we thought was going to propel us in the finals. But sadly we reverted back. 

I have wondered if our strong desire to 'defend our flag' overly dominated our mindset, even if unconciously.

From the get go this year we 'defended' our lead in 4th quarters with Goodwin saying after the GCS game:  we didn't need to score.  Served us very well in the first 10 weeks.  We tried to continue the defence of leads in the second half of the season but more often that not we failed.  So we doubled down on defensive methods.

Importantly, that strong desire to 'defend the flag' seemed to affect how we played in that we went from what won us the GF: attack with solid defence to a predominately defensive game.  We tried several times to get back to our GF system but whenever in strife we went defensive until it all clicked again in the round 23 gabba game.

Maybe we tried too hard to 'defend' our flag and we lost sight of what got us there:  defend and attack.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[DeeZee 6,719]

I really think it  was our pressure around the ball and on the spread that hurt us this year.

No where near last years levels.

We strangled teams last season and forced them into pressure kicks more often than not.

Fix that up and get in Van Rooyen and with TMac back as solid forward targets next year Will hopefully see us challenge again.

On a side note you can see why we went hard at Jamie Elliot a couple of years ago, exactly the type we need

[spirit of norm smith 12,840]

1 minute ago, Lucifers Hero said:

I have wondered if our strong desire to 'defend our flag' overly dominated our mindset, even if unconciously.

From the get go this year we 'defended' our lead in 4th quarters with Goodwin saying after the GCS game:  we didn't need to score.  Served us very well in the first 10 weeks.  We tried to continue the defensive of leads in the second half of the season but more often that not we failed.  So we doubled down on defensive methods.

Importantly, that strong desire seemed to affect how we played in that we went from what won us the GF: attack with solid defence to a predominately defensive game.  We tried several times to get back to our GF system but whenever in strife we went defensive until the round 23 gabba game.

Maybe we tried too hard to 'defend' our flag and we lost sight of what got us there:  defend and attack.

Great post. Our defence will be strong with Petty, Lever, May and I think Bowey, Hunt,Salem still forming the nucleus for the back half next year. But we can’t just be that strong defensive team.  Footy is putting the score on the board. Our attack through Mids and Forwards will change. I’m still confident that we can beat anyone. We will challenge next year.  

[Brownie 5,127]

55 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Simon, I reckon it would be handy to have a fwd or two actually stay forward. How many times did we get the ball on a turnover, the player looked up (Viney several times) with no one to kick to! Even a diagonal pass. Then we got caught holding the ball. Thought I was back to the Dean Bailey days 

That's interesting. I watched Casey do the opposite yesterday. Michael Barlow I think it was commentating who talked about how good the forwards were at stretching the Lions defence.

Mitch Brown or TMAC would lead up on to the wing, mark and wheel around fast to kick to JVR etc.

This high up the ground leading created space for the Dees forwards to lead into.

We tried it in the seniors with Gawn and LJ and it failed pretty miserably.

I'm not sure how Grundy is going to fix it next year.

Also, for most of the season I heard players kept talking about the game plan being to get it in to the forwards fast and lock it in. It didn't work and they kept doing the same thing for the whole season. 

I don't really believe we tried to adjust our game style too much at all. It just wasn't evident onfield.

I can't help but think he's stubborn or fearful of making dramatic changes to game style or personnel.

Petty forward with five minutes left in the season is a classic example.

Geez, how many games did we not even use the Sub when we were being overrun?

[Older demon 2,166]

Yes, Simon has stated the obvious and it is disappointing that despite the awareness the coaching staff seemed unable to rectify it. Rather than be critical I would like to know what impediments there were to making change because it was repeat, start, repeat start and entirely predictable. Perhaps the match committee didn't think we could change things late in the season.

In the last 2 years, it has been clear to win we need 3 marking targets up forward. Two has never worked. Maybe the powers that be didn't believe that in McDonald's absence we didn't have the cattle. JVR is too raw, Weir has shone as a 2nd ruck and I doubt will ever be a forward while Mitch Brown is a good VFL player.

Look at Geelong, Sydney, Pies and even Brisbane and Freo all have running half-backs who deliver the ball. Our back six in the finals were panicky, quick kick-out or bomb artists. Bowey in-form must play next year. His run and dash in the VFL prelim was elite. What was adequate in the season failed badly in the finals. Rivers, Hibbo & Jayden all had bad finals and their kicking and run was not good under finals pressure.

3 defensive forwards aren't going to win finals, you need goal kicking half forwards. ANB, Spargo and Melk play a role but don't kick enough goals and often don't lay enough tackles. There is a spot for one such player.

It is mini rebuild time just like Geelong did last year. To improve Melk, Hibbo, Hunt, cannot be in our best 22. Jacko will be gone and we need more class, pace, run and creativity and the extra effort needed to develop some of the young talent at Casey. 

[jumbo returns 6,484]

On Channel 9 this morning:

Brayshaw on Neal = 3 effective touches first half

Sparrow on Neal = 18 effective touches after half time

Questioning fitness levels

Nathan Brown pointing out our back six structure - Lions adjusted

Goodwin = outcoached (again)

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

And Simon says for a few days Demonland will have different topics full of guff and twaddle, all saying the same thing but in a myriad of different ways.

We lost for any number of reasons, it happens because it is a game, where surprisingly there is an opposition t.rying to win as well.

We get another go next year and the year after and thev year.........

Yes. 

Who would have thought a Melbourne demons 'fan' forum would be a place for supporters to come and air their grievances.. 

Sure is funny that you're using the same platform as a place to complain about the very thing it's designed for! 

 

[mo64 5,208]

56 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

I get that people are frustrated and disappointed right now, but if you think we didn’t try new tactics and structures through the second half of the year you weren’t watching very closely.

 Changing a method as drilled and dependent on positioning as ours mid season is very difficult. When we Implemented changes to put some speed on the ball, our defensive structures broke down behind the ball and we leaked goals.

 When we changed from 2 talls and a resting ruck to one tall and a defensive forward Brown became ineffective due to the blanketing he got from defenders. We should have been able to leverage the extra pressure forward to lock the ball in, and often we did, but our kicking inefficiency made that look like a fail also.

 We rotated a number of options through the second wing through the second half of the year but none of them really worked.

We tried plenty of things, mostly they fixed some things while breaking others. We will need to make a few changes to the team in the off season and rework our method thinking about all 3 phases of the game rather than just trying to fix the attacking  phase. I think Goody was saying loud and clear that he and the FD are on it.

Totally disagree. For starters, Goody continually embraced our imperfections at the start of the season because we were winning. Once we came up against better teams, our wastefulness came back to haunt us.

We continued the game plan of kicking into the forward pocket even when we were in total control. The scoreboard never reflected our dominance.

The only time I can remember us trying to quickly transition the ball out of our backline was in the dying stages of the Carlton game, when Hunt basically changed the game.

You are correct that Brown became ineffective as the lone key forward, so why not trial JVR? 

Our defensive structures fell apart in the 2nd half of games because our defensive pressure dropped off. And most of that was due to our lack of forward pressure. What were Neal Bullen and Spargo doing in the team if they can't apply defensive pressure?

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 34,420]

Simon is an honest guy. I get that. But what I cannot understand is that the above statement WE could all see in Rouds 11-12 etc and very little changed. 
He backed his original template to improve. 
He certainly needs to be more daring in future Seasons 

And the Players were not fit enough Mind or body when it counted (The Finals)

Very frustrating

[mo64 5,208]

51 minutes ago, binman said:

Great post. 

The game plan and method we came into to the finals  with was significantly different to that used in 2021 and the first half of 2022. 

The last third of the season  really only the freo game 'looked' like a Melbourne game.

I suspect that change was equal part a response to what the opposition were doing better (both in terms of negating us and their model) and mitigation against our issues.

We played much more aggressively, particularly in first halves and as you suggest leaked goals as a result. 

In simple terms, the approach seemed to be get a big enough lead by half time and then hang on for dear life.

I reckon the biggest change was that we  stopped using tempo control. 

 

What games were you watching? In the finals we conceded more goals in the 2nd halves when we were passive.

And we never used tempo control in 2021. It was all about getting it forward quickly and locking it in, or long down the line and get a stoppage. Nothing changed from 2021 to 2022.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Great post. 

The game plan and method we came into to the finals  with was significantly different to that used in 2021 and the first half of 2022. 

The last third of the season  really only the freo game 'looked' like a Melbourne game.

I suspect that change was equal part a response to what the opposition were doing better (both in terms of negating us and their model) and mitigation against our issues.

We played much more aggressively, particularly in first halves and as you suggest leaked goals as a result. 

In simple terms, the approach seemed to be get a big enough lead by half time and then hang on for dear life.

I reckon the biggest change was that we  stopped using tempo control. 

 

I think you talk yourself into believing something is true about our side. 

Oscar McDonald being a good player for years. Loading being the biggest factor for our losses in the middle of the year and your constant over-analysis backing your theory. (which you still haven't said anything about post bombing out of finals). And now our method being significantly different in finals?

Significant is a bold word. 

Aside from looking into the corridor noticibly more in the first half against Brisbane in the semi, our entire game plan and personell were the same.

[Fat Tony 4,370]

2 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

I get that people are frustrated and disappointed right now, but if you think we didn’t try new tactics and structures through the second half of the year you weren’t watching very closely.

 Changing a method as drilled and dependent on positioning as ours mid season is very difficult. When we Implemented changes to put some speed on the ball, our defensive structures broke down behind the ball and we leaked goals.

 When we changed from 2 talls and a resting ruck to one tall and a defensive forward Brown became ineffective due to the blanketing he got from defenders. We should have been able to leverage the extra pressure forward to lock the ball in, and often we did, but our kicking inefficiency made that look like a fail also.

 We rotated a number of options through the second wing through the second half of the year but none of them really worked.

We tried plenty of things, mostly they fixed some things while breaking others. We will need to make a few changes to the team in the off season and rework our method thinking about all 3 phases of the game rather than just trying to fix the attacking  phase. I think Goody was saying loud and clear that he and the FD are on it.

Ben Brown was ineffective with TMac in the side.

We had 14 matches to throw Petty forward and it took until the last 3 minutes when the season was finished to try it. 

We clearly didn’t do enough experimentation. 

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

There is not a lot of upside in going back and forth on this kind of subject. We all see what we want to see, myself included. For mine, BBB was pretty okay early in the season with Tmac in the team. He had a bag of 4 against hawthorn and a couple of bags of 3 goals.

i do just want to say that if you are using the fact that we continue to use the safety kick to the pocket as your evidence that we didn’t change our forward 50 entries then you should go back and watch round 23 and the finals games. If nothing else is in the offing then the pocket kick is our go to and that of any forward half team. It represents the highest percentage play for obvious reasons.

[spirit of norm smith 12,840]

Watched the Cats v Pies and again Pies v Dockers and actually saw the absence of players deliberately kicking deep forward entries to the pockets. It’s the MFC playbook. Pies especially kick to the hotspot, 15 metres out and Centred.  Will continue to see if our MFC “percentage” pocket based forward play is the key to scoring by the “top 4 teams”.  

[monoccular 16,017]

8 hours ago, Rivers Run Red said:

Einstein says

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

“If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" - Henry Ford.

[monoccular 16,017]

3 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I think you talk yourself into believing something is true about our side. 

Oscar McDonald being a good player for years. Loading being the biggest factor for our losses in the middle of the year and your constant over-analysis backing your theory. (which you still haven't said anything about post bombing out of finals). And now our method being significantly different in finals?

Significant is a bold word. 

Aside from looking into the corridor noticibly more in the first half against Brisbane in the semi, our entire game plan and personell were the same.

Jimmy

Really looking forward to binmans analysis of our ultimate failure on the podcast this week.  
He has been pretty insightful most of the year.   

[Ethan Tremblay 28,293]

8 hours ago, Rivers Run Red said:

Einstein says

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

Famously misattributed to Einstein; he never said it. Well marketed though, certainly sold a lot of coffee mugs and posters. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Ethan Tremblay

[1964_2 2,357]

17 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

MELBOURNE coach Simon Goodwin believes rival teams attacked the "vulnerabilities" of the reigning premier during the second half of the season.

Goodwin referenced the side's inefficiency going forward, its inability to deal with pressure situations, and its struggles in retaining big leads as aspects of Melbourne's season that opposition teams preyed upon.

"Clubs are no different to what we do. We attack teams' vulnerabilities and clearly there was a pattern throughout the year of what we struggled with. We'll unpack all of them," Goodwin said.

"We tried to address it on the run throughout the season and we weren't able to do that to a level where we could get results. We did it to a level to finish second on the ladder, which I'm incredibly proud of.

"But, once again, in finals your vulnerabilities find you. They find you in big games where it matters and if they're not corrected, they'll keep finding you. We've got to go away and fix it."

Goodwin said a disjointed second half of the season ultimately caught up with his side.

 

"It's devastating, the result. There's no question about that. I can only imagine our supporters and how they would feel. Our players and staff are all feeling exactly the same," Goodwin said.

"Clearly, to give up 70 points in the second half … you've got to give credit to Brisbane. The game swung a bit back their way. We weren't able to execute the basics of the game for long enough in the phases that we really value.
"We speak about this a lot. In finals, generally your vulnerabilities come out in games and we've had some throughout the second half of the year. When we've lost games of footy, teams have been able to impact in the second half of games and mow down leads. It happened again tonight.

"It's certainly not a shock, in terms of that. That's been a pretty consistent theme for us when we've been beaten, so we've got some work to do. 

 

Not a lot of answers here. Just identifying the same obvious stuff that everyone has been seeing for months

 

[1964_2 2,357]

8 hours ago, Gouga said:

I would love simon to explain how "we tried to address it on the run". It wasn't by changing personnel or changing our plan. Did we just talk about it a lot in meetings?

We are vunreable because we don't score enough. Even when we dominate we remain gettable and once momentum swings we are done.

Maybe his version of we tried to address it on the run was 

“hey boys, we just need to execute the basics for longer” 

[1858 219]

4 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Ben Brown was ineffective with TMac in the side.

We had 14 matches to throw Petty forward and it took until the last 3 minutes when the season was finished to try it. 

We clearly didn’t do enough experimentation. 

We definitely didn't do enough experimentation and it's unforgivable.

I think you're off on Brown however. He regressed this year but he was definitely better when TMac was playing. Not only was he likely getting 2nd tall defender but also less likely being double teamed. No TMac also took away one of his strengths which was leaping into packs from the side to take grabs. This year he was under them.

Further, when he was struggling last year he built up his confidence and worth by coming down the ground and taking grabs and opening up the defense knowing we were anchored with TMac. Not only were there less opportunities to do that this year but on the odd occasion he did, he had his own entourage.

Edit: one last thing. Brown was also completely buggered by year's end at shouldering the key tall load. Having to continually present to marking ontests and getting crunched for most if the year takes its toll. A fit T Mac would have taken a fair bit of that load and given Brown a breather.

Edited September 11, 2022 by 1858

[jnrmac 18,914]

8 hours ago, Whispering_Jack said:

Oh please. All of those things were evident in mid season but we went into the finals with the same set up, the same tactics and strategies and the same game plan as were used in May and June. We had some work to do then to overcome the vulnerabilities. We have to do much better than this.

This is my problem with Goodwin.

He like many here identified the issues we have bit he was unable to fix them. Aside from putting Gawn and the Petracca forward what else did he do?

he had ample opportunity to experiment against the WCE and North. He wanted to bank the wins though and backed his players to fix it onfield which they didn't /couldnt do.

We blooded 1 new player Turner for 1 game and Dunstan for a couple.

Many players went backwards including Lever, Rivers, Salem, Spargo, ANB, Jackson, 

I am struggling to see who improved? Maybe Brayshaw and Viney.

Stubborn Simon wears this and needs to fox it.

 

[loges 6,002]

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I think you talk yourself into believing something is true about our side. 

Oscar McDonald being a good player for years. Loading being the biggest factor for our losses in the middle of the year and your constant over-analysis backing your theory. (which you still haven't said anything about post bombing out of finals). And now our method being significantly different in finals?

Significant is a bold word. 

Aside from looking into the corridor noticibly more in the first half against Brisbane in the semi, our entire game plan and personell were the same.

Really looking forward to your analysis Jimmy.