POSTMATCH: Rd 22 vs Carlton

[dazzledavey36 48,704]

5 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Would love to know how many times we have then gone into our forward line from the contest.

I would suggest it is a very low figure.

Teams going end to end get easy goals and we simply don't because of this tactic.

That is how Pies for example, beat Bombers in last minute.

I think Hawthorn exposed us with this and it's given other clubs a blueprint.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

Another bugbear is the way the players and Goodwin talk about working on forward connection at training.. 

What exactly are they working on if kicks continue to be up and under, or we consistently kick to pockets even when there an open leading player that can be hit up? 

It says to me that it's a player problem rather than coaching. A lack of composure, awareness and execution under pressure is a weakness shared by too many through the middle of the ground and its killing us atm. 

Need to add some variety through there in the off-season. 

As good as Gus Brayshaw was with his ball winning ability, he adds nothing as far as ball use goes. Butchers it as badly as anyone. 

[layzie 28,666]

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Would love to know how many times we have then gone into our forward line from the contest.

I would suggest it is a very low figure.

Teams going end to end get easy goals and we simply don't because of this tactic.

That is how Pies for example, beat Bombers in last minute.

I'd also like to know this. I'd be guessing 1 in 8 times it gets out the back and we get a run on with a forward 50 entry and that's assessing fairly. 

[Engorged Onion 9,255]

3 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Another bugbear is the way the players and Goodwin talk about working on forward connection at training.. 

Agreed... and the AFL average is 19% - that's 4 out of 5 entries will result in a turnover across the entire league.

I'm not sure tactically what can be done different, aside from 'lowering eyes'.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

4 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

As good as Gus Brayshaw was with his ball winning ability, he adds nothing as far as ball use goes. Butchers it as badly as anyone. 

12 turnovers on Friday.

Averaging nearly 8 a game since going into the midfield.

You expect more in the midfield sure, but for comparison our worst for season averages are Oliver with 5.5, Viney 5.3 and then Gus with 4.9.

[rpfc 27,427]

32 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Completely disagree. 

Just heard Lever speaking on the radio. He admitted the more attacking ball movement in the last couple of minutes (kick into the centre especially) was purely a function of being behind with not much time to go, and needing goals fast. He said everyone knows that when a team has a lead, almost automatically the oppo will roll extra numbers behind the ball. Hence why there was no point kicking long to the out-number.

This was not a function of tinkering from goody. 
 

 

No, it was a function of good coaching from Goody during the week.

[Demon Dynasty 15,361]

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

Interesting… here is a counter view.  With 3 mins to go we needed 2 goals.  All of a sudden we kick to the top of the square!  Melks marks and goals, Kozzi roves and goals.  Kozzi said after the match we had been ‘training it’ during the week.  I think we have a defensive entry (pocket) to soak up time in half, and an attacking entry when risk/reward suggests we need quick scores. Think this is quite a bit of tinker.

The kick to the pocket should only be used at certain points in a game.  We overuse it far too often IMV.

It's fine if looking to protect a lead or ice a quarter or game.  Possibly on occasions if the oppo is on a 3 to 4 goal momentum roll.

Outside of that it should never be the 'go to' option.  We should be going to the hotspots or fat side wherever possible and getting a small or two (even Fritta) front and square more often.

All out attack bar the above exceptions.  Anything else is playing right into the oppo's hands and keeping them in the game as its such a low percentage (conversion) play that will result in a low undefendable score against the better clubs.  Puts too much emphasis on our defence/defenders holding the line pretty much every game.  Just not humanly possible to do this every week, especially against the top 6 to 8 clubs.

It's about getting the balance right IMV and at the moment we are way too conservative (with ball placement/method...eg bombing to the pocket) going foward....except when we're behind and the game's on the line!  Funny about that.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[Binmans PA 25,975]

2 hours ago, John Demonic said:

Yes. 1st in assists below.. to go with 33 goals.

He had much better depth on his kicking (either foot) that year too.

I think we need to continue to play him closer to goal, because he struggles when it's further out than 35m-40m these days, which is a shame, because he was a beautiful set shot in 2018.

[1964_2 2,357]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Good insight mate. 

Which radio station was the interview?

SEN, with the loin chop
 

https://media.whooshkaa.com/show/1919/episode/1032173.mp3?source=webplayer-download

Edited August 15, 2022 by 1964_2

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

19 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Another bugbear is the way the players and Goodwin talk about working on forward connection at training.. 

What exactly are they working on if kicks continue to be up and under, or we consistently kick to pockets even when there an open leading player that can be hit up? 

It says to me that it's a player problem rather than coaching. A lack of composure, awareness and execution under pressure is a weakness shared by too many through the middle of the ground and its killing us atm. 

Need to add some variety through there in the off-season. 

As good as Gus Brayshaw was with his ball winning ability, he adds nothing as far as ball use goes. Butchers it as badly as anyone. 

I'd like to see Brayshaw back to the wing. His defensive wing work last year stopped teams switching and allowed time to set up our defensive structure.

[1964_2 2,357]

15 minutes ago, rpfc said:

No, it was a function of good coaching from Goody during the week.

Ok , Jake Lever just lied then. 
 

[Red But Mostly Blue 3,660]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:13 PM, leave it to deever said:

Blues bought the heat mate ...no doubt about it.

Absolutely! They played like a team whose spot in the finals was on the line.

But I've got to say, we seem to have played a lot of teams this year who have played out of their skins, and you've got to put that down to them for sure, but also us for allowing it to happen and perhaps still being perceived as a beatable team when the  right pressure is applied (hence the leads we gave up against Freo, Swans, Pies and Doggies). 

The team wants to be great, and build a dynasty - well I look to the recent dynasties - the Hawks, Cats and Lions were relentless. Constant drubbings at the hands of those mobs. I want to be there! We have the team, but we've got to use our time well because there are other teams on the rise, as well. 

[layzie 28,666]

I’m just going to say this one last time before moving on, I’m willing to accept that I might be harsh or didn't see this from the best angle.

We talk about how there are the moments in our game right now where we don’t seem to be totally in sync whether that be burning teammates without looking up, bombing away when there are good short options/options in wider areas, or not taking the first option but one thing I really can’t stand is players that mark in range but maybe 40+ metres out and walk back with their back to goal. 

In the second quarter when Max took that ripping mark directly in front I saw Bayley Fritsch in what I felt at the time was about 10 metres of space leading back towards goal. I won’t say this was an absolute gimme but I felt had Max been backing up while looking forward he could have easily seen this and dinked a kick that Fritta would have 90% marked and run in for the open goal. It’s a game of millimetres and these little things are going to play a massive part in finals, we need to be switched on.

Max goes back and hooks the kick, it’s not always about our inaccuracy sometimes. It’s about looking for the best chance to score, Max’s last 4 shots over two games to that point had been horrid. I do like that our captain wants the responsibility and takes ownership but lets make sure our awareness levels are as high as possible. Happy for people to disagree on this but in that moment I would have preferred Max to get it over to Fritsch and on the off chance it didn’t work out I would have preferred a rushed behind than a set shot miss. 

We move on, however my view remains that for Melb to go deep this season it’s going to be between the ears as much as the personnel issues we face. 
 

[WalkingCivilWar 31,342]

9 hours ago, AmDamDemon said:

What a cracking match. The tape can go straight to the pool-room. Put it in a soundproof box, though, so we don't have to listen to Hamish whatshisface try and ruin an all time classic MFC win on the bell with his bemoaning the fortunes of the losing team's supporters. He can [censored] right off.

I still can't understand how any Dees supporter can't be absolutely rapt that this is what we are living through. 

Onwards. Go Dees

The win was awesome as it was, and the barely concealed disappointment of the commentators was the icing on the big red and blue cake! 

And I’m with you AmDam: simply cannot understand a Dees fan being anything short of elated right now. 

GO THE MIGHTY DEES!!! 
ALL THE WAY!!!

[Deestar9 1,402]

22 hours ago, Fanatique Demon said:

Just watched the last two minutes again. Hunt, Melksham and Kozzie!!!!

But can’t understand why, at the last ruck contest with 11 seconds to go, Gawn didn’t bring the ball to his feet to force another stoppage. Instead it goes out the front to a Carlton player, risking a forward thrust, mark, goal and loss.  

Can’t understand why you bring that up…we won. 

[old55 21,247]

1 hour ago, Bimbo said:

I think you are massively underrating the games of Petty and May.  

Two of McKay's goals that i remember were from a free kick against Brayshaw and a kick over the top.  Neither May's fault.

Curnow's points were from half chances.  Snaps that would have been brilliant, although unlikely, goals.  He had the only mark goal between the two of them i think.

These were ideal matchups from Melbournes point of view and great games by both their players against the likely Coleman medalist and one of the best forwards in the game.

McKay 7 marks (season average 5.8), 4 contested marks (season average 2.2) and 3 goals (season average 2.4) was in danger of getting away from May.  The over the top goal was definitely May's fault, he's the goalkeeper, how does his man get 25 metres goalside of him?

The thing about Curnow - he IS brilliant and often makes those plays. The luck was on our side.

IMO a better match up would have been the reverse of what we went for.

[Demonised 1,201]

I'm thinking that all this is a ruse and that Goody has a Cunning Plan which will be unveiled in two weeks, taking all opposition teams by surprise having been lulled into a false sense of security and they will all be blown away and we'll have back to back flags.

.

[layzie 28,666]

9 hours ago, AmDamDemon said:

What a cracking match. The tape can go straight to the pool-room. Put it in a soundproof box, though, so we don't have to listen to Hamish whatshisface try and ruin an all time classic MFC win on the bell with his bemoaning the fortunes of the losing team's supporters. He can [censored] right off.

I still can't understand how any Dees supporter can't be absolutely rapt that this is what we are living through. 

Onwards. Go Dees

For me while I wasn't thrilled at times, the result meant more than anything to do with the performance. You can package the effect a win like that has on the boys and take it forward. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,361]

14 hours ago, loges said:

 Melksham wow just wow thought he turned the clock back to 2018, has been building each week though. the more I thought of it did he even play that well in 2018 ?

Even better than 2018!?

Rnds 8, 9 & 10 in particular plus the finals series.  Round 9 against the Blues probably his best H&A game that year, at least statistically, and possibly during his time with us (bar finals).

Very good Melk on Friday night.  If only we could get similar most weeks from here.  As you say....wow!

Statistically as well....

Weighted Ave Rating vs the Blues > 3.400

H&A Season Ave Ratings / % difference of Friday night's result...

2022 (prior to this match) > 1.718 / +98%

2021 > 1.853 / +83%

2020 > 1.435 / +137%

2019 > 1.931 / +76%

2018 > 2.385 / +43%

Edited August 15, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[layzie 28,666]

13 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Ok , Jake Lever just lied then. 
 

I see your side to this 1964_2. 

It was good coaching and great that they had this in mind at training during the week but it doesn’t necessarily mean we’ve tinkered with the general gameplan. We hardly looked to the corridor all night and the fact that we did on this particular play, while good coaching, felt more like we’d ripped up the gameplan in that moment and just went for broke.

Does it mean this could be used a bit more in the coming games? Maybe. Not sold on this being something that Goody prefers though as it can potentially burn us the other way in a bad area of the field, we’ll see. 
 

[rpfc 27,427]

25 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Ok , Jake Lever just lied then. 
 

FFS. That is a coached action. It’s called ‘game win’ situations or ‘red time goal’ scenario. Lever knew what to do because they run through those scenarios and he doesn’t even need to look - he just knows there is an outnumber. Lever is smart but that was a coached action.

[titan_uranus 22,283]

It seems I view this game and its result differently to many on Demonland. Which doesn't necessarily surprise me given the way Demonland has reacted to our 2022 season.

We won an extremely close game in front of a loud, rabid crowd in a finals-like atmosphere. When was the last time we did that? We beat Geelong in Round 23 last year but there was no crowd. This year we lost to Collingwood and the Dogs, last year we lost to Adelaide. So perhaps the GWS win in the second-last game of 2020? Otherwise maybe we're going back to the 2018 finals.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I reckon a game like that, with that result, will spark something in our players. A reminder of the thrill of playing these big games, when they don't end in disappointment like they did the previous week. Maybe they'll spark a change in ball movement, or a change in how we defend, but at the least a change in belief.

It's true that Carlton's midfield was weakened, but as we all cry out for when we're down in numbers, they brought elite effort which doesn't depend on talent. Like almost every game we've played this year, our opponent has lifted when playing us.

It's true that we still didn't really maximise our inside 50 chances, but one area we did improve on significantly was forward half pressure. 8 tackles inside 50 last week to 20 this week; Fritsch laying 5 of his own.

I still think too many are expecting us to be blowing everyone, even top 8 sides, out of the water. We weren't doing that last year and we shouldn't be expecting it this year. I rate this win, and I rate our chances to knock Brisbane off again this Friday and confirm our top 4 spot.

[titan_uranus 22,283]

1 hour ago, Winners at last said:

Spot on.

We lucked in ... that punch/tap by O'Brien into open space was really dumb. (Although Max replicated it with the final centre ball up!!) And lucky it went to Lever, who has a very high footy IQ.  No hope of winning had he kicked the ball down the line.

So did I. Agree, Hunt was awesome. Best game I've seen him play. 

For 11 weeks Collingwood was applauded for their skill in winning close games, including here on Demonland, and including in response to our loss last week.

We win a close one and we "lucked in" because an opposition player made a mistake.

FFS.

[1964_2 2,357]

25 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

The kick to the pocket should only be used at certain points in a game.  We overuse it far too often IMV.

It's fine if looking to protect a lead or ice a quarter or game.  Possibly on occasions if the oppo is on a 3 to 4 goal momentum roll.

Outside of that it should never be the 'go to' option.  We should be going to the hotspots or fat side wherever possible and getting a small or two (even Fritta) front and square more often.

All out attack bar the above exceptions.  Anything else is playing right into the oppo's hands and keeping them in the game as its such a low percentage (conversion) play that will result in a low undefendable score against the better clubs.  Puts too much emphasis on our defence/defenders holding the line pretty much every game.  Just not humanly possible to do this every week, especially against the top 6 to 8 clubs.

It's about getting the balance right IMV and at the moment we are way too conservative (with ball placement/method...eg bombing to the pocket) going foward....except when we're behind and the game's on the line!  Funny about that.

Spot on. The teams with good enough skills/smarts have reacted to our “kick to the pocket” strategy, with more attacking ball movement out of their defence - avoiding the ability for our defensive zone to consistently create repeat entries (and strangle the opposition like we did more consistently last year). We are still creating very high inside 50’s, so parts of the strategy are working. But we are conceding significantly more end to end goals, and we are not converting a high enough % of our inside 50’s.

How have or will we react to our plan not working as well for us anymore? 

It appears to me, that we just have this simple view of win the contest, and win inside 50’s (forward half game) and we will win the game more often than not (no matter what the forward line looks like). For this assumption to be correct for finals, our midfielders will have to dominate contested ball, and we will have to create more turnovers when the opposition attempt the attacking ball movement (greater forward half pressure in particular). Or alternatively we will have to magically improve the much talked about “forward connection issues” 

So we either stick to what we know, and what we have been doing. Or we become more attacking ourselves for larger periods of the game. Isn’t that what would suit a smaller, faster forward line?  (with only 1 key fwd, and resting ruck) For mine when we are attacking we look good (eg when we are behind and are forced to be more attacking). 

PS. Stat from Kingy:- we are 17th for moving the ball from one end of the ground to the other. Too predictable / conservative coming out of defence? 

 

 

[1964_2 2,357]

16 minutes ago, rpfc said:

FFS. That is a coached action. It’s called ‘game win’ situations or ‘red time goal’ scenario. Lever knew what to do because they run through those scenarios and he doesn’t even need to look - he just knows there is an outnumber. Lever is smart but that was a coached action.

Ok, maybe we just haven’t different expectations of what good coaching involves. 

For mine it’s a pretty basic instruction to not kick down the line to an out-number, when we are behind with a couple of minutes on the clock. 

And no, Jake did not automatically know that the out-number would be there. Listen to his SEN interview this morning, and he says “we just have to find wherever it is that we have extra numbers” 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by 1964_2