Forward Half Concerns

[OutOfTheCentre21 164]

23 minutes ago, Dee Viney Intervention said:

It is our Achilles heel at the moment. With the increase in soft cap spend next year we need to invest in a specialist forward coach. I like Greg Stafford, nobody can bang a Gatorade container drum style like him during the team song. He is a premiership ruck / forward coach and credit to home for that.He has never been a specialist forward and right now that is what we need. We got away with it last year but not this year. Leading patterns are wrong, games with zero tackles in forward line, no front and square smalls, smalls flying for marks and spoiling our talks,dump kicks to forward pocket which makes it harder to score. We should not have lost that game last night. Statistically and to the naked eye we had enough chances to win easily. We also let them slingshot from defence way to easily. That is on the forwards. Aces in their places get a specialist forward coach in and Stafford to concentrate on the rucks.

100% agree. We need to recruit a genuine forward line coach, it just isn't working up there. We get it in there so often for little reward. How often did we see a Pies player sitting out the back waiting for the loose spill to then slingshot it out of their defensive 50? Where are our smalls? 

We had 8 inside 50 tackles to 18, BUT we had 24 MORE inside 50s. That is damning. We were drowning down back every time it hit the deck and that stat paints the picture. Unacceptable. Fix it Dees and quickly! 

[The heart beats true 16,016]

1 hour ago, Bates Mate said:

I don't really think it's a forward coach problem I think it's a whole coaching philosophy of low risk play the % based footy we play. We are coached to not take  risks entering the forward 50 which is why we often hold the ball up allow numbers into the forward line and kick to the pocket and try lock it in so we can set up defensively instead of taking a risky kick to a 50/50 which could result in turnover. We need a balance of both and right now players are in the moment playing too conservative entering 50

Nailed it.

Not enough long term emphasis on building a forward line, coupled with a system that values consistency over dynamic variability. JJ will ALWAYS go long down the line. It’s too predictable, and now it’s too easy to coach against.

[rpfc 27,391]

On 8/1/2022 at 4:47 PM, rpfc said:

When we have the pressure on the footy like last Friday - our forward line looks very potent.

So will this thread die? I hope it does…

You’re such an [censored].

[rpfc 27,391]

I am not sure of the value of our forward line. In the three phases of the game - it looks a massive problem.

With footy; other than Koz and Fritsch and a healthy brown - they are not natural forwards so they don’t move well together and rarely find space they way other clubs do. Liabilities: ANB, Sparrow, Spargo (unless he has the ball, teams just leave him alone in the F50 and dare us to kick it to him)

Without the footy; this is what they are built for - what to do in the Demon Web but that is falling down constantly now. So the one aspect they were great at is now a small nuisance for good teams then they switch and off we go. Liabilities; in theory - no one, but… brown, Fritsch, the others when ball watching. 

When ball is in dispute; normally I would say this is a strength, but not this year. Their tackling is down while our I50s are up, the pressure rating (even if it confuses your faculties) is indicative of a forward line that doesn’t pressure anywhere near what we did last year. We were one of the worst teams for letting the ball out of our F50 even after our 10 game winnings streak. Liabilities; Brown, Fritsch, Gawn, the others when they are not applying themselves.

 

So I dare say that our forward line will be overhauled for 2023 with possibly different direction.  

What can Goodwin and co. do in the next month to address some of it…

[Maldonboy38 5,808]

My 2 bobs worth.

Last night, we had the ball so much in our half of the ground, and kept it there for long periods or repeat entries means 2 possible things:

• pressure acts aren't required (we have the ball)
• or we are messing up the Pies as they move through the middle, taking possession and driving it back inside our F50. 

So, in this context I can understand why the pressure acts would be so low.

What I cannot fathom is this: we took so few F50 marks (did we take any?) which means the ball hits the ground and this is where the pressure is required. And yet we didn't lay one F50 tackle for the night? Appalling!  

But more than this I see

• so few dynamic leads by forwards. Fritsch and Brown try but we need a better plan to make space for them to lead into.
• we don't have a single "clunker" on our list (you could HEAR Neitz mark the ball, and Carey. Curnow and Naughton do it now)
• Our small forwards rarely crumb properly. When they do it looks amazing because we see it so rarely.
• a gameplan of kicking to the left forward pocket. I know this is a defensive mechanism because it is a lot harder for the opposition to clear the ball out, but we do it EVERY time. 
• Our midfield kicking inside F50 can be elite one minute and totally inefficient the next.

[Ollie fan 2,113]

It’s true that we very badly need a centre half forward. I certainly didn’t recognise how important TMAC was and I don’t think many people did. And I don’t see there is any chance of getting him back this year – he would be too underdone, even when he gets fit. so although I have been against bringing JVR in, perhaps we need to try.

To my mind, the other important thing to do is to get Ben Brown to stay in the goal square near it. He tries really hard and holds some good marks around the wing area, but his ground play is absolutely terrible – after all, it’s certainly not what he is expected to do – and if he stayed in the forward area, we would always have someone to kick to. No doubt the fullback would try to run off him but once the ball was kicked to BBB alone in the forward line a couple of times, the fullback would know that he has to guard him constantly.  But then we would have a 1:1 in the forward line which always favours the attacking team.

[mo64 5,208]

9 minutes ago, Maldonboy38 said:

My 2 bobs worth.

 

• a gameplan of kicking to the left forward pocket. I know this is a defensive mechanism because it is a lot harder for the opposition to clear the ball out, but we do it EVERY time. 
• Our midfield kicking inside F50 can be elite one minute and totally inefficient the next.

You can't blame the players when this is an obvious team direction. And when someone like Brown clunks a mark, they're on a tight angle. How about occasionally kicking the ball laterally with a 30m pass, which opens up by sides of the ground. 

We've forgotten that the Harmes fat side kick to Fritsch in the G/F turned the tide.

Edited August 6, 2022 by mo64

[1964_2 2,357]

3 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

It’s true that we very badly need a centre half forward. I certainly didn’t recognise how important TMAC was and I don’t think many people did. And I don’t see there is any chance of getting him back this year – he would be too underdone, even when he gets fit. so although I have been against bringing JVR in, perhaps we need to try.

To my mind, the other important thing to do is to get Ben Brown to stay in the goal square near it. He tries really hard and holds some good marks around the wing area, but his ground play is absolutely terrible – after all, it’s certainly not what he is expected to do – and if he stayed in the forward area, we would always have someone to kick to. No doubt the fullback would try to run off him but once the ball was kicked to BBB alone in the forward line a couple of times, the fullback would know that he has to guard him constantly.  But then we would have a 1:1 in the forward line which always favours the attacking team.

Spot on. Couldn’t understand why BB didn’t spend more time as the deep target last night.

Understand he can be effective leading up the wing when we have another big fwd target deep. But what was the thinking last night? 
 

[monoccular 16,010]

10 hours ago, Bates Mate said:

I don't really think it's a forward coach problem I think it's a whole coaching philosophy of low risk play the % based footy we play. We are coached to not take  risks entering the forward 50 which is why we often hold the ball up allow numbers into the forward line and kick to the pocket and try lock it in so we can set up defensively instead of taking a risky kick to a 50/50 which could result in turnover. We need a balance of both and right now players are in the moment playing too conservative entering 50

"..coaching philosophy of low risk play .."  except that it is high risk when we repeatedly get outworked by interceptors.

8 hours ago, mo64 said:

You can't blame the players when this is an obvious team direction. And when someone like Brown clunks a mark, they're on a tight angle. How about occasionally kicking the ball laterally with a 30m pass, which opens up by sides of the ground. 

We've forgotten that the Harmes fat side kick to Fritsch in the G/F turned the tide.

"...We've forgotten that the Harmes fat side kick to Fritsch in the G/F turned the tide."   I must say I have hardly seen it tried since.

[Dwight Schrute 16,722]

I reckon it's our ball movement full stop that's the problem. in the 2021 finals we were ultra aggressive and bold with ball in hand. we're so far from that it's not even funny. 

if we can re-capture that, and lift our pressure rating accross entire games i am very confident we will go back to back

 

[Redleg 37,471]

24 minutes ago, Dwight Schrute said:

I reckon it's our ball movement full stop that's the problem. in the 2021 finals we were ultra aggressive and bold with ball in hand. we're so far from that it's not even funny. 

if we can re-capture that, and lift our pressure rating accross entire games i am very confident we will go back to back

 

We are probably the only side in the AFL that refuses to let players lead and make space in the forward 50.

This chaos footy is not winning us games anymore.

Considering we can win contested possession, how about using it to our advantage rather than creating more contested possession attempts?

[Gawndy the Great 7,261]

Some vision on Couch just shows how one dimensional and safe out ball movement has become forward of centre. 

Kicking into pockets and not to an outnumber or leading target is killing our ability to generate easy goals. It’s our system and it takes away our dare and makes us too predictable. Compare that against the Cats, Pies and Blues who take the game on and have a wide open f50. 

In addition to a KPF , we have to either involve Spargo more in the scoring chain or  move one of our elite kicks and playmakers into the HF to provide the forward link.

Edited August 8, 2022 by CYB

[Bonkers 910]

34 minutes ago, CYB said:

Some vision on Couch just shows how one dimensional and safe out ball movement has become forward of centre. 

Kicking into pockets and not to an outnumber or leading target is killing our ability to generate easy goals. It’s our system and it takes away our dare and makes us too predictable. Compare that against the Cats, Pies and Blues who take the game on and have a wide open f50. 

In addition to a KPF , we have to either involve Spargo more in the scoring chain or  move one of our elite kicks and playmakers into the HF to provide the forward link.

Yeah, saw that also. We've gone from being ranked 5th in the comp for ball use inside 50 to 18th. A lot of the issues are easily fixed if they hit up loose targets rather than blazing away to outnumbered contests. The game plan that's been drilled into them seems to be taking away from their ability to play instinctive footy and hit up a loose team mate. It's concerning that this hasn't been addressed as its been happening most of the year and definitely cost us the game Friday night.

[Boots and all 894]

I sometimes dream that Goodie hasn't introduced crucial elements of our gameplan which has caused our losses but will introduce our most expansive attacking footy come finals...then I wake up 😂

[1964_2 2,357]

49 minutes ago, CYB said:

Some vision on Couch just shows how one dimensional and safe out ball movement has become forward of centre. 

Kicking into pockets and not to an outnumber or leading target is killing our ability to generate easy goals. It’s our system and it takes away our dare and makes us too predictable. Compare that against the Cats, Pies and Blues who take the game on and have a wide open f50. 

In addition to a KPF , we have to either involve Spargo more in the scoring chain or  move one of our elite kicks and playmakers into the HF to provide the forward link.

Something I have been pondering. 

Thoughts on this fwd line.

Trac.   Brown.  Spargo

Kozzy.  Gawn.  Fritsch 

where BB is the lead up CHF. Gawn sits in the hole and makes sure we don’t get out-marked when no other free options. (Gawn and BB can rotate roles throughout the game) Trac has a license of when to play up the ground, and focus on hitting inside 50 targets, vs being a target himself inside 50. Fritsch keeps being Fritsch. Kozzy and Spargo focus on crumbing Gawn and BB, as well as their pressure/defensive roles.

With Gus playing well in the middle, we can afford to play Trac forward more.

Don’t have any stats to back this up, but I think we win more clearances when Jacko is in the ruck vs Gawn, and Jacko is just not an effective fwd target this year. 

I realise we have tried a version of the above for small periods of games, but what if we committed to it for larger % of games?  

Feel free to shoot it down. Just hoping for a magic fwd line fix really. 
 

[SFebes 4,692]

 

You’d  hope Viney, Petracca and Oliver would be a fair bit more above AFL average. This is what I was taking about today. We need more from them than possessions, we need more quality, not quantity 

[rpfc 27,391]

2 hours ago, SFebes said:

 

You’d  hope Viney, Petracca and Oliver would be a fair bit more above AFL average. This is what I was taking about today. We need more from them than possessions, we need more quality, not quantity 

A lot of people will waive those numbers away because CP5 and CO13 get a number of clearances but just watch them game to game stride out and boot the shizen out of the ball to the pocket.

Its horrendous footy. 

As an aside, Sparrow kicking to a Demon in the 50 only 7% of the time is diabolical. He spends most of time as a HFF! Everyone else are mids except for him and Mr 46%.

[whatwhat say what 18,773]

Sparrow won’t make it as a midfielder with those sorts of numbers coupled with his inability to win possessions 

[SFebes 4,692]

1 minute ago, rpfc said:

A lot of people will waive those numbers away because CP5 and CO13 get a number of clearances but just watch them game to game stride out and boot the shizen out of the ball to the pocket.

Its horrendous footy. 

As an aside, Sparrow kicking to a Demon in the 50 only 7% of the time is diabolical. He spends most of time as a HFF! Everyone else are mids except for him and Mr 46%.

Couldn't agree more, its horrendous and those two above should be held accountable and expect better.

[1964_2 2,357]

2 hours ago, SFebes said:

 

You’d  hope Viney, Petracca and Oliver would be a fair bit more above AFL average. This is what I was taking about today. We need more from them than possessions, we need more quality, not quantity 

I wonder what % ANB is 

[layzie 28,486]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:10 AM, mo64 said:

You can't blame the players when this is an obvious team direction. And when someone like Brown clunks a mark, they're on a tight angle. How about occasionally kicking the ball laterally with a 30m pass, which opens up by sides of the ground. 

We've forgotten that the Harmes fat side kick to Fritsch in the G/F turned the tide.

Not me friend!

[SFebes 4,692]

6 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

I wonder what % ANB is 

Probably didn't register haha

[dazzledavey36 48,642]

2 hours ago, SFebes said:

 

You’d  hope Viney, Petracca and Oliver would be a fair bit more above AFL average. This is what I was taking about today. We need more from them than possessions, we need more quality, not quantity 

Jesus christ this is depressing.

We're paying how much exactly for Oliver and Petracca to be one of the worst ball users going inside 50's? Unbelievable. 

The Sparrow one is not one bit surprising. All he ever does is continually blaze away with zero awareness in front of him. It's like watching Brent Moloney all over again.

We've missed our opportunity this year to get in cleaner ball users like Laurie and Chandler in cleaning this up a bit better. Instead we're stuck with guys like Sparrow who have been in poor form for a number of weeks and adding absolutely nothing to the team going forward.

Edited August 8, 2022 by dazzledavey36

[SFebes 4,692]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Jesus christ this is depressing.

We're paying how much exactly for Oliver and Petracca to be one of the worst ball users going inside 50's? Unbelievable. 

The Sparrow one is not one bit surprising. All he ever does is continually blaze away with zero awareness in front of him. It's like watching Brent Moloney all over again.

We've missed our opportunity this year to get in cleaner ball users like Laurie and Chandler in cleaning this up a bit better. Instead we're stuck with guys like Sparrow who have been in poor form for a number of weeks but adding absolutely nothing to the team going forward.

Its really disgusting, we expect from them 

[DemonWA 3,426]

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

A lot of people will waive those numbers away because CP5 and CO13 get a number of clearances but just watch them game to game stride out and boot the shizen out of the ball to the pocket.

Its horrendous footy. 

As an aside, Sparrow kicking to a Demon in the 50 only 7% of the time is diabolical. He spends most of time as a HFF! Everyone else are mids except for him and Mr 46%.

The better stat would be kicks inside 50 resulting in turnover. That would tell the story that they're trying to articulate here imo.

These stats need to be reviewed in context of playing alot of the year with one AFL standard KPF. No doubt these guys could improve their delivery inside 50, but often they're kicking to a 3 on 1 (BBBB outnumbered) or a massive pack because there aren't too many other options on.